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Starfield Thread - now with Shattered Space horror expansion

Vic

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7 times more details

7-times-more-details-v0-5yx7np8qteec1.png


https://www.reddit.com/r/NoSodiumStarfield/comments/1efgul6/7_times_more_details/
 

scytheavatar

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Some of you folks need to realize that Cyberpunk 2077 after all the patches and new content basically went from being a 4/10 game to being a 7.5/10 one. 8/10 if you are being generous. That's the best case scenario for Bethesda right now, and there is no chance of Bethesda pouring in as much time and effort into "redeeming" Starfield as CDPR into Cyperpunk. For the simple reason that Starfield 1.0 is nowhere near as bad a game as Cyberpunk 2077 1.0. And right now putting in time and money into TESVI should be Bethesda's priority.

So low lying fruits like vehicles is the best case of what you can expect from Bethesda for Starfield going forward. Maybe with lots of hard work Bethesda can turn Starfield from being 6/10 to being a 7/10 game.
 

Vic

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Some of you folks need to realize that Cyberpunk 2077 after all the patches and new content basically went from being a 5/10 game to being a 7.5/10 one. 8/10 if you are being generous.
Not really. I played CP2077 on release and I encountered almost zero bugs. I found it weird that so many others were reporting all of these bugs.

I played it a for a few hours again after the DLC came out but it didn't really change much for me. I also got bored before I actually made it to the new area.

Also CDPR and Bethesda make different kinds of games, one being more story focused and tighter, hand crafted map design. And the other being more sandbox and emergent gameplay driven.

and there is no chance of Bethesda pouring in as much time and effort into "redeeming" Starfield as CDPR into Cyperpunk.
Bethesda might not do it, tho considering that they plan to release TESVI, they have every reason to try. But even if that's the case, modders will. The modding scene for CDPR games is lightyears away from Bethesda games. Not even comparable.

For the simple reason that Starfield 1.0 is nowhere near as bad a game as Cyberpunk 2077 1.0.
Again, I had no issues with the initial release of CP2077.

And right now putting in time and money into TESVI should be Bethesda's priority.
They're going to shoot themselves in the foot if they let their first new IP in 20 years or whatever in the current state. I don't have much hope for TESVI, regardless how much time and money they invest into its development if they can't show they can fix up Starfield.

So low lying fruits like vehicles is the best case of what you can expect from Bethesda for Starfield going forward.
"So"? Sorry I missed your logical argument that lead to this conclusion.

Maybe with lots of hard work Bethesda can turn Starfield from being 6/10 to being a 7/10 game.
I think that's fair. And mods will turn it into a 9/10.
 

scytheavatar

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They're going to shoot themselves in the foot if they let their first new IP in 20 years or whatever in the current state. I don't have much hope for TESVI, regardless how much time and money they invest into its development if they can't show they can fix up Starfield.

I mean, the way you post makes it sound like you think Bethesda should be hoping to release a Starfield 2 in the future. But is that really a good idea? A lot of Starfield's woes is caused by Bethesda and Howard being so obsessed with whether they can make a space game that they failed to ask if they should make one. Like is a space game even compatible with the dense exploration sandbox formula that Bethesda have made since Morrowind? Is a world with no grand conflict really the best setting to create exciting quests?

The reality is that Bethesda probably shouldn't be pouring money to fix Starfield cause it's a bad idea from day one.
 

Vic

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Is a world with no grand conflict really the best setting to create exciting quests?
This is actually my biggest gripe with the game, outside of the half-baked systems. I'm not sure if they will ever do a Starfield 2, but I hope they will flesh out the universe with their DLCs and add some conflict. Shattered Space was announced from the very beginning and I always thought that this is what the DLC would do, just based on the name alone, and add some kind of war or introduce a new hostile civilization into the current boring setting.
 

FrostRaven

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I'm honestly finding better characterization, dialogue and RPG decisions in eroges than most western and japanese games.
What eroge has good "RPG decisions"? Unless you mean chosing different routes? For characters and dialogue obviously you are right because these games are like 99% about the story and characters. Except gameplay heavy eroges from companies like Eushully, Alice Soft or ninetail. I've written about VenusBlood GAIA on here, which is very gameplay heavy.

but most AAA games called RPGs today are just glorified combat sandboxes or a linear story with 5 decisions.
First of all, you are using the term RPG loosely. Try looking at 'CRPGs' on steam which is slightly better than the generic RPG tag today. That being said, I don't mind games like Starfield or Fallout 4 being "combat sandboxes" as long as the gameplay is fun. I think it's fun in Starfield, but it has no proper endgame ie it's not fleshed out. You play for 50, 100, 200 hours and then you realize it was all meaningless. That's how I felt anyway because there was no point to the outpost building. The bounty system was shit (that was on release so idk about the Tracker Alliance thing). And enemies stopped leveling at 100, which was too early imo, considering that there's no level cap on the player afaik. The gear that you can drop never significantly improves. Etc.

In Seeds of Chaos your MC can be corrupted or not, have different relationships that affect other relationships, your wife can be loyal or not and have different relationships and those affecting others, to have an example, in Kingdom of Deception you can be dominant or submissive, choose any of 3 orc leaders to support or go your own way, have different events or not based on how you treat them.... These games are unfinished, btw, but this year I rediscovered eroges through a friend and I was pleasently surprised by their passion and "doing more with less" approach of the indie developers in that space. Also was reminded that I prefer meaninful gameplay and events based on decisions that having 3D graphics and tons of loot farming. And I had fun with the dialogues, some characters were funny or dramatic in unexpected ways for a genre I didn't check since the 90s (aside from Subverse, which I bought for the lulz because the ME spoof of the trailer was so funny, and that one is a "game with porn", really, not a "porn game").

I have been Gamemastering RPGs for 35 years and I think what separates them from other games aren't RPG mechanics (because if it was stats, leveling and classes even Call of Duty has been an "RPG" for decades), what makes an RPG special is that you can choose your own story through meaningful decisions that affect you, NPCs and maybe the world. That's why I think that games lately have no meaningful decisions personally aside from who you romance, and which faction you choose, because most times there is no change at all aside from "reaction lines" from NPCs. You aren't barred from quests, people don't hunt you down, there are no faction reputation with penalties to your actions, and so on.

Yeah, I know of the CRPG tag, and I think the problem is with reporters or developers saying a dolphin and a dog are the same because both are mammals. Action RPGs have no decisions, they are just a Hack and Slash game of old like Gauntlet with extra steps (loot farming). JRPGs are Adventure games with classes and again farming of loot and skills, the story is linear. And so on... I have been reading this forum for a while and I know most codexians know what an RPG is. I think it has been a marketng term for a very long time, adding RPG because for casuals it means "long game" and "dopamine supply of small gains" subconsciously.

Is a world with no grand conflict really the best setting to create exciting quests?
This is actually my biggest gripe with the game, outside of the half-baked systems. I'm not sure if they will ever do a Starfield 2, but I hope they will flesh out the universe with their DLCs and add some conflict. Shattered Space was announced from the very beginning and I always thought that this is what the DLC would do, just based on the name alone, and add some kind of war or introduce a new hostile civilization into the current boring setting.
Yeah, mine too. The world has no personality and it's kind of boring. The good news is that Todd Howard is going to retire in 2 games, he said so in a podcast interview, so he is going to do for sure Elder Scrolls and FO5 and then probably peace out. Starfield 2 won't be in his hands, probably. And I fear Bethesda Studios will be worse without him X/

Starfield would come then, but they have also mentioned that they are thinking on some way to increase the production speed and output, maybe they will go on a hiring spree or buy more studios to give them more bandwidth.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Is a world with no grand conflict really the best setting to create exciting quests?
This is actually my biggest gripe with the game, outside of the half-baked systems. I'm not sure if they will ever do a Starfield 2, but I hope they will flesh out the universe with their DLCs and add some conflict. Shattered Space was announced from the very beginning and I always thought that this is what the DLC would do, just based on the name alone, and add some kind of war or introduce a new hostile civilization into the current boring setting.
Unfortunately the DLC can't alter things too much outside of its new zones, so at best we'll get something like picking between a fundamentalist and a moderate Va'ruun faction and perhaps depending on which one you side with there'll be some very basic acknowledgement of that within the broader world (like with Fallout 4's BoS patrols if you sided with the Brotherhood during the main quest).
 

ind33d

Learned
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Some of you folks need to realize that Cyberpunk 2077 after all the patches and new content basically went from being a 4/10 game to being a 7.5/10 one. 8/10 if you are being generous. That's the best case scenario for Bethesda right now, and there is no chance of Bethesda pouring in as much time and effort into "redeeming" Starfield as CDPR into Cyperpunk. For the simple reason that Starfield 1.0 is nowhere near as bad a game as Cyberpunk 2077 1.0. And right now putting in time and money into TESVI should be Bethesda's priority.

So low lying fruits like vehicles is the best case of what you can expect from Bethesda for Starfield going forward. Maybe with lots of hard work Bethesda can turn Starfield from being 6/10 to being a 7/10 game.
2077 is literally smoke and mirrors. so much of that "game" is scripted that CDPR should be in jail. starfield at least has mechanics and doesn't crash. it's theoretically possible for modders to fix SF. how would you fix cyberpunk, break into Poland, steal the original script, and hire Obsidian to produce the rest of Act 1?
 
Last edited:

sosmoflux

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AAA studios seem to be more and more subject to reactive panic, desperate to chase favourable YouTube clickbait absent any sort of design vision. Starfield's reception was bad and, among many other things, people bitched that the game has no rovers, so now Bethesda's adding rovers. Doesn't matter whether the gameplay structure can support them in any meaningful way, what matters is the ensuing viral marketing that "Bethesda listened!" and "Starfield is saved!" The same thing happened to Cyberpunk 2077 - bad reception, people bitched about not having multiple player homes (again among many other things), so CDPR added purchasable apartments despite being completely pointless in the game's loops. People bitched about the Metro fast travel, some obsessive modders even made something themselves, so CDPR added one too despite being - guess what? - completely and utterly pointless.
This is a misdiagnosis, you say they are being reactive when the issue is that they don't have any sort of coherent design or vision in the first place and can't deliver on quality and fun. You also can't blame marketing for this, they're just putting out there what the team is saying they're making and are planning on.

Cyberpunk 2077 was a vaporware mess that put game devs through the meatgrinder as the leadership failed on all levels. When they were marketing car customization and tuning, several apartments and a train system in the game's PR they were writing IOU:s, making promises they failed to deliver on. You're right that these alone without the vision of the game they were a part of that was cut down into something completely different don't do much for the game. What they sold the game as, and in many ways seemed intent on making the game into, was something with GTA elements. A focus on driving, the vehicles themselves, the open world dynamic shootouts, a Cyberpunk world-space fully realized. In that context the trains made a lot of sense, the GTA series had them back in GTA2 (and in the first game but the second was more futuristic) and they contributed an additional way of navigation, allowing you to skip long drives and just go above or underground directly to a location, and if you were chased by law enforcement or anyone else it was an interesting place for a pursuit, the train tracks electrifying anyone who walked over them just before the train arrived. They make sense for the same reason they make sense in the real world if you're going for a world simulation.

In the end Cyberpunk 2077 wasn't GTA though, the wanted system was entirely broken, vehicular sections were few and entirely scripted, and the GTA convention of trains, being able to buy apartments and properties, and the car customization which were all cut didn't really have a place in the game anymore after the failure to deliver on that larger design promise reducing them into pointless fluff, but at least it was additional content. The game we got was Deus Ex: Human Revolution done in the style of Ubisoft, highly cinematic FPS segments with a lot of trashy busywork entirely lacking the dynamism of GTA.

No Man's Sky wasn't reactive either, they just completed the things they weren't able to before Sony's deadline hit them, but unlike Cyberpunk the vision never changed to such a degree as to invalidate this cut content they had been marketing.

Starfield never did market rovers or vehicles, so in this case they are reacting to feedback, but to a failure of their own game design and not "bitching". They actually thought people would have a great time slowly walking across large empty sub-Daggerfall procedurally generated squares and that this would be just as fun as the totally curated moment to moment gameplay of Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind. It's even weirder since you had horses in the later TES games but in the far future of Aboriginal soul-stares there are no ground based vehicles for transportation. Rovers are actually fixing a problem the game has, the issue is that none of the content is worthwhile and playing Starfield is a terrible experience in the first place, marred with issues so fundamental they could never fix it without remaking the game from scratch. Getting to content will be quicker, but because that content is bad it doesn't matter.

It's not the fault of marketing, it's early design failures and leadership failures to maintain a consistent vision and ensuring that the various part of the games mesh and make sense.

What are you blabbing on about holy shit
Gargaune is right

Game comes out, team's burned out, also suffering from a loss of trust as the shipped game is mid, marketing and community managers only recently activated thus full of vim steamroll the game designers with reactive "community feedback" so they can grasp at some good will and get promotions

Many such cases
 

actor

Literate
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Some of you folks need to realize that Cyberpunk 2077 after all the patches and new content basically went from being a 4/10 game to being a 7.5/10 one. 8/10 if you are being generous. That's the best case scenario for Bethesda right now, and there is no chance of Bethesda pouring in as much time and effort into "redeeming" Starfield as CDPR into Cyperpunk. For the simple reason that Starfield 1.0 is nowhere near as bad a game as Cyberpunk 2077 1.0. And right now putting in time and money into TESVI should be Bethesda's priority.

So low lying fruits like vehicles is the best case of what you can expect from Bethesda for Starfield going forward. Maybe with lots of hard work Bethesda can turn Starfield from being 6/10 to being a 7/10 game.
2077 is literally smoke and mirrors. so much of that "game" is scripted that CRPR should be in jail. starfield at least has mechanics and doesn't crash. it's theoretically possible for modders to fix SF. how would you fix cyberpunk, break into Poland, steal the original script, and hire Obsidian to produce the rest of Act 1?

scripts...in games?!? what?!
 

ind33d

Learned
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modders should add capital ship combat as an endgame activity, sort of like the game FTL but with the ship you built yourself. you could actually recreate FTL completely with a random start mod and some fuel requirements

there's not enough movement in space battles. you should need to get out of the captain's chair and run to different stations, put out fires, command crewmates to get in escape pods before the ship explodes, etc. why is the player the one firing guns instead of designating a follower as gunner? you can hire ship doctors, but they can't heal you, so what's the point? it's like how you can have a max level grav drive but still can't jump during combat because you can't fast travel while enemies are nearby. really weird omissions
 

Butter

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modders should add capital ship combat as an endgame activity, sort of like the game FTL but with the ship you built yourself. you could actually recreate FTL completely with a random start mod and some fuel requirements

there's not enough movement in space battles. you should need to get out of the captain's chair and run to different stations, put out fires, command crewmates to get in escape pods before the ship explodes, etc. why is the player the one firing guns instead of designating a follower as gunner? you can hire ship doctors, but they can't heal you, so what's the point? it's like how you can have a max level grav drive but still can't jump during combat because you can't fast travel while enemies are nearby. really weird omissions
"Why isn't Skyrim combat as good as Dark Souls?"

When you try to put everything in your game, you don't have time to make any of it really good.
 

Bulo

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"Why isn't Skyrim combat as good as Dark Souls?"
FromSoft has been iterating the same gameplay formula for decades now. Bethesda seem to throw away their work after each game and begin again from scratch. Compare New Vegas's iteration on Fallout 3's skill/perk systems versus Fallout 4's. Obsidian took the existing system and expanded it in order to broaden and deepen the sandbox. Then, with Fallout 4, Bethesda opted to completely redesign the system, seemingly with no actual vision beyond some sort of perceived sleekness or elegance. The senior designer responsible (who has hence retired) recalled the development process: Bethesda needed a new perk system, they dropped the problem in his lap; he made something that looked good to his eye (because he was working on it alone) and sent it out. Seal of approval. Problem solved!

Backwards. Just backwards
 

MjKorz

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Then, with Fallout 4, Bethesda opted to completely redesign the system, seemingly with no actual vision beyond some sort of perceived sleekness or elegance.
Oh, they had a vision: popamolization of the franchise so that it would become accessible to the most genre-ignorant casuals. In a way, they succeeded, because Fallout 4 sold very well.
 

Bulo

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Then, with Fallout 4, Bethesda opted to completely redesign the system, seemingly with no actual vision beyond some sort of perceived sleekness or elegance.
Oh, they had a vision: popamolization of the franchise so that it would become accessible to the most genre-ignorant casuals. In a way, they succeeded, because Fallout 4 sold very well.
I don't think that Fallout 3 is any more accessible than Fallout 4 (save deathclaws being trivialised in 4). Both games are impossible to fuck up on the default difficulty. It's not like playing Icewind Dale. The reason FO4 sold well is probably because FO3 sold well, and in the time since FO3 the gaming industry has doubled or tripled or quadrupled in revenue. It's all marketing and the allure of bottomless content. Also, people are more receptive to tricky games nowadays. Depending on how you play it, Elden Ring is one of the most difficult games ever released. It's also staggeringly popular. Even Fortnite has a high skill ceiling
 

Silverfish

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FromSoft has been iterating the same gameplay formula for decades now. Bethesda seem to throw away their work after each game and begin again from scratch. Compare New Vegas's iteration on Fallout 3's skill/perk systems versus Fallout 4's. Obsidian took the existing system and expanded it in order to broaden and deepen the sandbox. Then, with Fallout 4, Bethesda opted to completely redesign the system, seemingly with no actual vision beyond some sort of perceived sleekness or elegance. The senior designer responsible (who has hence retired) recalled the development process: Bethesda needed a new perk system, they dropped the problem in his lap; he made something that looked good to his eye (because he was working on it alone) and sent it out. Seal of approval. Problem solved!

Backwards. Just backwards

Okay, but that's just an anecdote, it doesn't actually get into what's wrong with F4's perk system. If you just compare the perks themselves, F4 isn't all that different from F3 or Vegas. Perks have level and attribute requirements and you get one point to spend per level (in line with 3, but admittedly not NV). Generally, people will point to the removal of skills as the biggest problem with F4's leveling, but what's funny about that is the ease of maxing out all skills and being a minor deity was a common criticism of 3 and NV which 4 successfully fixed by a combination of streamlining and then slowing progression.
 

MjKorz

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Then, with Fallout 4, Bethesda opted to completely redesign the system, seemingly with no actual vision beyond some sort of perceived sleekness or elegance.
Oh, they had a vision: popamolization of the franchise so that it would become accessible to the most genre-ignorant casuals. In a way, they succeeded, because Fallout 4 sold very well.
I don't think that Fallout 3 is any more accessible than Fallout 4 (save deathclaws being trivialised in 4). Both games are impossible to fuck up on the default difficulty. It's not like playing Icewind Dale. The reason FO4 sold well is probably because FO3 sold well, and in the time since FO3 the gaming industry has doubled or tripled or quadrupled in revenue. It's all marketing and the allure of bottomless content. Also, people are more receptive to tricky games nowadays. Depending on how you play it, Elden Ring is one of the most difficult games ever released. It's also staggeringly popular. Even Fortnite has a high skill ceiling
Fallout 4 literally gives you power armor at the start of the game along with a minigun and has you fighting deathclaws. It was definitely a notable bump in the franchise's popamolization compared to 3.
 

Bulo

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Messages
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FromSoft has been iterating the same gameplay formula for decades now. Bethesda seem to throw away their work after each game and begin again from scratch. Compare New Vegas's iteration on Fallout 3's skill/perk systems versus Fallout 4's. Obsidian took the existing system and expanded it in order to broaden and deepen the sandbox. Then, with Fallout 4, Bethesda opted to completely redesign the system, seemingly with no actual vision beyond some sort of perceived sleekness or elegance. The senior designer responsible (who has hence retired) recalled the development process: Bethesda needed a new perk system, they dropped the problem in his lap; he made something that looked good to his eye (because he was working on it alone) and sent it out. Seal of approval. Problem solved!

Backwards. Just backwards

Okay, but that's just an anecdote, it doesn't actually get into what's wrong with F4's perk system. If you just compare the perks themselves, F4 isn't all that different from F3 or Vegas. Perks have level and attribute requirements and you get one point to spend per level (in line with 3, but admittedly not NV). Generally, people will point to the removal of skills as the biggest problem with F4's leveling, but what's funny about that is the ease of maxing out all skills and being a minor deity was a common criticism of 3 and NV which 4 successfully fixed by a combination of streamlining and then slowing progression.
It's no great tragedy, but I do think that it was ultimately a step backwards. It isn't nearly as elegant as it looks at first glance. In integrating skills into perks, you lose the granularity of skills and skill-based checks while relegating a greater number of perks to mere fractional improvements in ability (e.g. You shoot guns 15% betterer!), which I find unsatisfying. It divests perks of their significance, or at least their perceived significance. The little thrill that you feel when unlocking some new roleplay or gameplay niche that is in tune with your character or build. Yes, these fractional improvement perks were present in Fallout 3, but you would never choose them, because there was always a more interesting one to take. The same can't be said for Fallout 4. In Starfield it's even worse. It's like they're in a death spiral
 

Bulo

Scholar
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Messages
336
Fallout 4 literally gives you power armor at the start of the game along with a minigun and has you fighting deathclaws. It was definitely a notable bump in the franchise's popamolization compared to 3.
That spectacle, while extremely gay and dishonest, doesn't represent the rest of the game. Fallout 3 and 4 are essentially the same in terms of gameplay. It's just Oblivion with guns (go here, stab bandits/shoot raiders)
 

Butter

Arcane
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Messages
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The only good thing about Fallout 4's perk system is that you can pull up the sheet at any time and plot out your build. But that's not inherent to the system. That's just a QoL thing that none of the previous games had. It's actually a terrible UX, because you can't see all the perks at one time, so you constantly have to scroll up and down, and you can't see a perk's name unless you hover over it, so you spend way longer than is necessary just finding the perk you want to buy.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,733
FromSoft has been iterating the same gameplay formula for decades now. Bethesda seem to throw away their work after each game and begin again from scratch. Compare New Vegas's iteration on Fallout 3's skill/perk systems versus Fallout 4's. Obsidian took the existing system and expanded it in order to broaden and deepen the sandbox. Then, with Fallout 4, Bethesda opted to completely redesign the system, seemingly with no actual vision beyond some sort of perceived sleekness or elegance. The senior designer responsible (who has hence retired) recalled the development process: Bethesda needed a new perk system, they dropped the problem in his lap; he made something that looked good to his eye (because he was working on it alone) and sent it out. Seal of approval. Problem solved!

Backwards. Just backwards

Okay, but that's just an anecdote, it doesn't actually get into what's wrong with F4's perk system. If you just compare the perks themselves, F4 isn't all that different from F3 or Vegas. Perks have level and attribute requirements and you get one point to spend per level (in line with 3, but admittedly not NV). Generally, people will point to the removal of skills as the biggest problem with F4's leveling, but what's funny about that is the ease of maxing out all skills and being a minor deity was a common criticism of 3 and NV which 4 successfully fixed by a combination of streamlining and then slowing progression.
It's no great tragedy, but I do think that it was ultimately a step backwards. It isn't nearly as elegant as it looks at first glance. In integrating skills into perks, you lose the granularity of skills and skill-based checks while relegating a greater number of perks to mere fractional improvements in ability (e.g. You shoot guns 15% betterer!), which I find unsatisfying. It divests perks of their significance, or at least their perceived significance. The little thrill that you feel when unlocking some new roleplay or gameplay niche that is in tune with your character or build. Yes, these fractional improvement perks were present in Fallout 3, but you would never choose them, because there was always a more interesting one to take. The same can't be said for Fallout 4. In Starfield it's even worse. It's like they're in a death spiral
starfield's perk system is the best I've ever seen in a video game, you can literally throw a dart at a sci-fi character and recreate his build by level 60
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
530
That spectacle, while extremely gay and dishonest, doesn't represent the rest of the game. Fallout 3 and 4 are essentially the same in terms of gameplay. It's just Oblivion with guns (go here, stab bandits/shoot raiders)
The rest of the game includes easy and fixed (i.e. non level-scaling) access to even more powerful pieces of power armor and weapons in low danger locations. Fallout 4 absolutely does follow the trend of franchise casualization relative to 3. Being "essentially the same" in terms of gameplay mechanics doesn't mean the game systems and character progression are not simplified.
 

Bulo

Scholar
Joined
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Messages
336
That spectacle, while extremely gay and dishonest, doesn't represent the rest of the game. Fallout 3 and 4 are essentially the same in terms of gameplay. It's just Oblivion with guns (go here, stab bandits/shoot raiders)
The rest of the game includes easy and fixed (i.e. non level-scaling) access to even more powerful pieces of power armor and weapons in low danger locations. Fallout 4 absolutely does follow the trend of franchise casualization relative to 3. Being "essentially the same" in terms of gameplay mechanics doesn't mean the game systems and character progression are not simplified.
True, it's worse. Not by leagues, but it is worse. I don't necessarily believe that it reflects anything about the audience though. I think it's just developer degeneration/retardation. Fallout 4 would likely have sold the exact same number of copies if they had simply tacked the cute new Vault Boy graphics onto the old system
 

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