Game News Steve Meister explains dumbing down in Oblivion

[Diogo Ribeiro]

There'll be a secret trainer who will send you on a quest to get a Patrick Stewart autograph, then he'll pump all your skills to their maximum when you give it to him.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Will there be skill trainers in Oblivion?

Yes.

 

[kingcomrade]

That said, the "use to increase" skill system is still the dumbest character development "system" ever implemented into an RPG. So tedious...yet also redundant. Amazing, really.

I agree, eleventy billion%
I also liked the phrase "Daggerfag" :D

 

[Balor]

In fact, MSFD just said in that thread that training was completely remade and you cannot train yourself up.
However, HOW it was remade remains to be seen... and whether he's right in his assumption that you will not be able to.

 

[Jinxed]

The problem, I think, is that they'll lessoning the impact of character creation (even more than in Morrowind). The whole game seems to be made so everyone can create "all in one" characters with ease. Likely to please casual gamers (which appears to be how most of the decisions are made).

That said, the "use to increase" skill system is still the dumbest character development "system" ever implemented into an RPG. So tedious...yet also redundant. Amazing, really.

It worked well in Betrayal at Krondor.

 

[Rat Keeng]

A use to increase system can work just fine, except Morrowind didn't really have a use to increase system, it had more of a broken character system, where you increase specific skills to level up. Levelling does not belong in use-based character systems, all stats and skills should react and adjust themselves according to what you do in the world, not be governed by silly multiplyers on level-ups, or in skills' case, be restricted by stats.

 

[AnalogKid]

There'll be a secret trainer who will send you on a quest to get a Patrick Stewart autograph, then he'll pump all your skills to their maximum when you give it to him.

Wow, for a second there I thought you said it was your skull he'd "pump to the maximum"!

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Regardless of whether a skill is major or minor, you get the same amount of "usage points" when you use the skill. To advance a skill, the formula does indeed account for a skill being major or minor, and in addition it accounts for a skill being within your class's specialization (combat, stealth, or magic). So it will take more skill uses to advance a minor skill than it will a major skill. In addition to these factors, your current skill level is used in an exponential formula to determine the total number of skill uses required to advance. And so as any skill improves, it will take longer and longer to advance to the next level.

Training is still in the game, but it has been altered so that it is not an exploit (there are limits to the number of times a trainer will advance your skill, among other things).

 

[Vault Dweller]

The newspost is updated. Thanks, Steve.

 

[Deacdo]

Training is still in the game, but it has been altered so that it is not an exploit (there are limits to the number of times a trainer will advance your skill, among other things).

Better that as an exploit than the having to go through the tedious process of tossing fireball after fireball after fireball etc. to raise your magic skill and whatnot. Oh wait, that's just the way the crappy system works. Never mind.

That said, limits for training were already in place for Morrowind. Training was the only thing that kept character development somewhat tolerable in Morrowind. Just make it cost more or something (then money may actually be useful for longer than a few hours of gametime).

 

[Rat Keeng]

I think that would depend on how Oblivion's economy turns out. Since the skill system is still the broken Morrowind model, maybe they've spent some time fixing the economic aspects of the game instead, you might even have to make a choice between training your skills, or buying new equipment.

I'm dreaming again, aren't I?

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Better that as an exploit than the having to go through the tedious process of tossing fireball after fireball after fireball etc. to raise your magic skill and whatnot. Oh wait, that's just the way the crappy system works. Never mind.

Except that you don't get skill usage for casting destruction spells -- only when you actually hit something.

 

[LlamaGod]

The trainers should just raise your bar to be 1 point away from a raise, and have the points needed to next raise determine the cost.

Like if you just raised a skill, it'll cost 1,000,000 gold to fill the rest of the bar or something.


KNOWING BETHESDA though, there will be some stupid talking crab merchant or something

 

[Psilon]

Except that you don't get skill usage for casting destruction spells -- only when you actually hit something.

OK, so what's to stop me from levitating out of melee range and burning mana on the ES equivalent of Inflict Minor Wounds (Damage Health 1-1 on Target)? The inability to levitate inside town?

 

[Rat Keeng]

One more question, do weapon skills increase based on how often you hit, or how much damage you do? As I recall in Morrowind, it was more effective to pummel a mudcrab with a broken wooden club, than to one-hit kill a golden saint with a daedric mace. Is it still like that?

 

[Relien]

One more question, do weapon skills increase based on how often you hit, or how much damage you do? As I recall in Morrowind, it was more effective to pummel a mudcrab with a broken wooden club, than to one-hit kill a golden saint with a daedric mace. Is it still like that?

It was also the only reason to turn off the "always use the best attack" option. At least it will not be possible to thrust with hammers or slash with, ehm, spears.

 

[Micmu]

...slash with, ehm, spears.

No, that will be definitively impossible.

Good decision on making destruction magic skill learning like this, since this is the mage's "weapon" now.

 

[crpgnut]

MSFD: Can you get a response from your playtesters about skill levels for a 10+ level character? It'd be really interesting to see what level their minor skills are at level 10, 15, 20 etc.
If you have people playtesting 40+ hours a week, some of those should be playing the game the way a real person would, not just trying certain quests to find bug x. I'm hoping some people are playing the game straight without fixing their skills to fit the situation. How do minors progress for the average Joe? Ask Locklear :D

 

[bryce777]

I guess trying to combat muchkinism for all these years has left Bethesda weary, so they're just going to indulge in it. Give up. Live by the philosophy of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

Pussies.

When have they ever combatted munchinism and not supported it whole hog?

 

[obediah]

Better that as an exploit than the having to go through the tedious process of tossing fireball after fireball after fireball etc. to raise your magic skill and whatnot. Oh wait, that's just the way the crappy system works. Never mind.

Except that you don't get skill usage for casting destruction spells -- only when you actually hit something.

Great all my offensive skills will be stuck at zero while some orc circle-strafes me to death and I curse at my inability to mash my mouse button at the right time.

 

[bryce777]

The problem, I think, is that they'll lessoning the impact of character creation (even more than in Morrowind). The whole game seems to be made so everyone can create "all in one" characters with ease. Likely to please casual gamers (which appears to be how most of the decisions are made).

That said, the "use to increase" skill system is still the dumbest character development "system" ever implemented into an RPG. So tedious...yet also redundant. Amazing, really.

It worked well in Betrayal at Krondor.

Except that you could sit in front of a food store and camp for 3 years and get 900 hitpoints that way. I agree it was very good, though. Darklands is even better - you dont magically get hitmpoints that allowed you to get hit 90 times with a sword wearing no armor. You improve by skills and equipment, mainly.

 

[Jasede]

...

Sorry for bumping this thread, but...
Most of you, even Vault Dweller, seem to believe that in Daggerfall primary skills increased faster than major skills, which in turn increased faster than minor skills.

But let me cite the read.me straight from my Daggerfall-CD

The manual erroneously states that
primary skills are easier to increase
than major, and major are easier
than minor, etc. All skills in all
categories use the same basic
formula to determine whether or
not there will be an increase.

So.......... The departure is still big but not as big as you try to make it.

 

[Balor]

Well, it seems that 'error in manual' - is, in fact, more like a error in game. You know Daggerfall is also called, right?
And besides, we're not exactly talking about how it was in Daggerfall - we are talking about how it would be LOGICAL and BALANCED.
And having Primary Skills increase faster - is logical indeed.

 

[bryce777]

Well, actually it makes no sense you would advance in a skill more rapidly just because you call yourself diplomat instead of agent.

If your main skills or your class dictated what sort of perks you qualified for, now that would make much more sense.

Since the game is so skill based, anyhow, they should really just ditch the idiotic 'level' thing.

 

[Lumpy]

That said, the "use to increase" skill system is still the dumbest character development "system" ever implemented into an RPG. So tedious...yet also redundant. Amazing, really.

So, why exactly is the TES system bad? Because you can stand somewhere and cast 100 spells to increase you skills? Moron... just don't.

Well, actually it makes no sense you would advance in a skill more rapidly just because you call yourself diplomat instead of agent.

If your main skills or your class dictated what sort of perks you qualified for, now that would make much more sense.

Since the game is so skill based, anyhow, they should really just ditch the idiotic 'level' thing.

I fully agree. Good thing there will be GCD.