Game News Steve Meister explains dumbing down in Oblivion

[Deacdo]

So, why exactly is the TES system bad? Because you can stand somewhere and cast 100 spells to increase you skills? Moron... just don't.

Who said I do?

Fucking fanboy.

 

[Lumpy]

So, why exactly is the TES system bad? Because you can stand somewhere and cast 100 spells to increase you skills? Moron... just don't.

Who said I do?

Fucking fanboy.

Then what else is wrong with it?

 

[Deacdo]

Do you *really* want me to explain or are you just going to make another assumption on your own and insult me afterward? At the end of the day I don't really care whether or not you understand my POV, so I'm not wasting my time on one of the residential board idiots (if you are one).

 

[Lumpy]

Do you *really* want me to explain or are you just going to make another assumption on your own and insult me afterward? At the end of the day I don't really care whether or not you understand my POV, so I'm not wasting my time on one of the residential board idiots (if you are one).

Well, sorry for the assumption, but I really don't understand what else you could have against the "use to increase" system.

 

[Killzig]

its kind of redundant and restrictive. Even in RPGs that aren't "use to increase" you're still using skills to up them. In Fallout if you're a charming bastard you're chit chatting your way around and increasing EXP by using. Its more of a passive way and the fact that its less restrictive about how you spend those level ups is a good way to let players maybe adapt to the game as they go on.

As far as Morrowind goes, I think the problem might be more based on that the game was boring. The system itself, while I might not like it, is doable. It just didn't work well in Morrowind because of bad design and implementation.

 

[Zomg]

There's nothing theoretically wrong with use-to-increase systems. The big attraction of a use-to-increase system is that it can be transparent; You basically go off and do what you're going to do and all the bookkeeping goes on in a sublayer and your concious choices are not constantly interfacing with that sublayer (therefore benefitting verisimilitude). Compare that to something like 3rd Edition D&D where your every action requires a direct, concious reference to your character sheet. That can be fun for a certain type of player, too, so there's room for each type of system.

Morrowind fucked it all up with the level and multiplier system, though. It was shitty from every angle, and Oblivion apes the same system. Any robust form of the use-to-increase system will also be context sensitive (so that you'll improve more, say, if you cast a difficult spell in a combat situation on a dangerous enemy than casting a fake practice spell over and over in the corner). Wasteland did that in a rudimentary way.

@Lumpy - Read some of Galsiah's posts about sensible game worlds - he explains why people are bothered that you *can* progress your character nonsensically even if they don't actually do so.

 

[Drakron]

True, I like WoW system that its a mix ... level affects HP and stats but only puts a limit of how far can a skill be raised, raising a skill requires using it and there are limits of how far doing some thing raises the skill ... making the same food over and over again does not make someone raise its skill to the max.

 

[bryce777]

They should do it the way silent storm does it. You get experience and have levels, but ultimately the levels don't mean much except you get extra perks. Actually, the perks are very useful, but they don't make you able to take a full clip of 50 caliber in the guts.

Your stats also do go up, and they go up when you use a skill that is based on those stats, but they don't go up often, and they don't have an overwhelming effect on gameplay whent hey do.

Basically, TES series is kind of like a more discreet instead of continuous version of this, but it is unbalanced and just kind of stupid and always has been.

If they fixed anything you would think they would fix this because it's easy.



As for transparent, the silent storm way allows you to ignore your stats if you want, or else you can pay attention to them as much as you like, especially figuring out how to raise skills, and what perks to choose. So it is sort of the best of both worlds, and it also is very realistic and you dont get the situation where you are a god and dont even have to look where you are going, but on the other hand if you have enough skill as a player and your character is skilled enough, you can sneak up behid half a dozen guards and kill every one of them with shurikens in one round.

 

[Deacdo]

Do you *really* want me to explain or are you just going to make another assumption on your own and insult me afterward? At the end of the day I don't really care whether or not you understand my POV, so I'm not wasting my time on one of the residential board idiots (if you are one).

Well, sorry for the assumption, but I really don't understand what else you could have against the "use to increase" system.

I'll touch on a few things, but people have already chimed in and I share some of their thoughts.

The system is either redundant or makes developing your character a chore. Even leaving aside the system is practically designed to be abused (but given how much of a munchkin-fest Oblivion is likely to be, that won't matter so much), you still have a system that practically requires you to (at least in some small way) go out of your way and do silly things in order to develop the character you want. It imposes a gameplay style on you, rather than the other way around. It only holds 1 advantage over a "regular" level up system (being seamless), but IMO, that's not really even an advantage in an RPG. Otherwise it's a useless system designed for munchkins and people who don't actually want to develop their characters.

One of the most irritating aspects of the TES games is that the skill system ("use to increase") is supposed to be seamless and immersive (it fails, of course)...but *nothing* else in those games is. I don't like the system in any game I've played, but at least in a few titles it was implemented well enough to be tolerable.

 

[Lumpy]

The system is either redundant or makes developing your character a chore. Even leaving aside the system is practically designed to be abused (but given how much of a munchkin-fest Oblivion is likely to be, that won't matter so much), you still have a system that practically requires you to (at least in some small way) go out of your way and do silly things in order to develop the character you want. It imposes a gameplay style on you, rather than the other way around. It only holds 1 advantage over a "regular" level up system (being seamless), but IMO, that's not really even an advantage in an RPG. Otherwise it's a useless system designed for munchkins and people who don't actually want to develop their characters.

Huh? What does it force on you? I only used my major and minor skills in Morrowind, and I never felt that I was forced to play a specific way. Are you talking about the Misc Skills multiplier exploit? I agree, it's annoying, but I never used it anyway.
One advantage is that it forces you to role play your class (are you talking about imposing this kind of gameplay style? Well, d'uh, it is a RPG). You may choose a diplomat class with a Sword, but if all you do is use that sword, you won't raise your diplomat skills, like you can in other games.

 

[Proweler]

Except that you don't get skill usage for casting destruction spells -- only when you actually hit something.

OK, so what's to stop me from levitating out of melee range and burning mana on the ES equivalent of Inflict Minor Wounds (Damage Health 1-1 on Target)? The inability to levitate inside town?

Why bother? Just open the console and fill in some code. Saves you alot of RSI.