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Stick a fork in PC gaming - it's done

Bradylama

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The Wii doesn't even have HD functionality, so it's the only "next-gen" system on the market that'll actually have something going for it in the cheapness department.

Otherwise, you don't really need an HDTV to use a 360 or PS3, but you're essentially paying for features you're not using.
 

ichpokhudezh

Liturgist
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germantown, md
Deacdo said:
The funny thing is, what costs more? A gaming PC or a 360 (which mostly plays dumbed down PC games), a Wii and a PS3 (lets face it, you'll probably need 2-3 systems in order to get enough quality games) and an HDTV with all the bits and pieces (so the games on your brand new systems don't look like crap).
Dell's "cheap" high-end gaming system is delayed yet again.
While some people start to mind the wait for bargain @ $4665, there are other offerings available right now - prices range from $5k to $8k.
 

Oarfish

Prophet
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Messages
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Twinfalls said:
don't need to know assembly

A compiler will do a better or equivalent job most of the time. Modern optimising compilers are good, the processors that they target are increasingly complicated and no longer designed for assembly programmers. Modern CISC chips have arcane instruction sequencing rules that must be followed to avoid pipeline stalls and RISC chips were partially conceived with compilers in mind. Hand coding optimisations to optimally use multiple super scalar architectures isn't really a practical option nowadays. There was a day when PC games programmers would write there own malloc() in assembler (probably because early MS implementations were notoriously terrible) and graphics primitives. There really is little need to do so now given the huge improvements in tools we have seen over the past couple of decades.

Its not an issue of competence, its a question of focus. But I would say that, pretty much the only time I have ever used assembler professionally was for small (like 256 bytes of RAM small) microprocessor programs.
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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Dell's "cheap" high-end gaming system is delayed yet again.
While some people start to mind the wait for bargain @ $4665, there are other offerings available right now - prices range from $5k to $8k.
Jesus Christ, what a waste of money. I could build a great gaming computer with $600. Most people already have TVs for their console, and most people already own a computer with monitor and such, so beyond a graphics card, processor, and memory, what do you need to buy? Who the fuck would spend $4.6k on a gaming computer? Why not just visit Dell's president and ask him to ass rape you?
 

Blacklung

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One of the big problems is that many people (mostly teens) find it easier to shell out a modest 300 to 500 every once in a while for a new console and then 70 or 50 for games as opposed to buying a sparkling new $2000+ gaming computer all at once and then taking the time to set it all up. I can't think of too many parents that I know who are willing to buy a gaming computer for their kids' christmas present, but I can think of plenty who might make the sacrifice to buy a new XBOX 360 or other new console.

And, even if you try to keep up with the computer upgrades, sometimes you find that the market has suddenly changed for 3D cards which force you to buy a new motherboard and CPU just to run them...pretty much forcing you to shell out another $1000+ dollars. Seriously, I wish I could afford such overhauls (especially when seeing the the screenies of Crysis!) but such is not the case for this poor college student, soon to be poor medical student.
 

kingcomrade

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And, even if you try to keep up with the computer upgrades, sometimes you find that the market has suddenly changed for 3D cards which force you to buy a new motherboard and CPU just to run them
Huh? How OLD is your current computer? Why would you buy a "sparkling new" gaming computer anyways? It's like paying 50 bucks for a game that will be 25-30 in a month. My computer is about two to three years old and it is just now starting to have problems with the very newest games, and it certainly didn't cost anywhere near $2000.
 

Data4

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kingcomrade said:
Dell's "cheap" high-end gaming system is delayed yet again.
While some people start to mind the wait for bargain @ $4665, there are other offerings available right now - prices range from $5k to $8k.
Jesus Christ, what a waste of money. I could build a great gaming computer with $600. Most people already have TVs for their console, and most people already own a computer with monitor and such, so beyond a graphics card, processor, and memory, what do you need to buy? Who the fuck would spend $4.6k on a gaming computer? Why not just visit Dell's president and ask him to ass rape you?

Dell bought Alienware, if that helps put things into perspective.

Anyway, regarding purchasing a new computer versus consoles, let's face it. The average console player is too stupid to build his own computer, so he would have to resort to getting one custom built which bloats the price 200 to 300%.

-D4
 

Slylandro

Scholar
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
705
Higher Game said:
It's because Germans have kept their blood pure. Most "white" Americans have either Irish, Italian, or Slavic heritage these days, so that explains the mindless action games.

I'm almost afraid to ask-- are you German?
 

Bradylama

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And yet there are millions of people who are somehow capable of running WOW. It's not like there's a shortage of people that know how to, or can keep their PCs respectably up-to-date.

Here's a rant I typed up awhile about this:
PC Gaming isn't on the decline because of hardware. PC Games have always fluctuated in 3 to 4 year cycles where the new stuff won't work with older hardware. Perhaps some of you don't remember when you couldn't play 66mhz games with 33mhz processors, but I do.

There's a huge base of gamers that do know the ins-and-outs of their PCs, and do pay the money to keep up in terms of the hardware. That's because a lot of PC Gamers aren't 13, and actually have paying jobs and an income. You're also paying for more than just a gaming platform when you buy a PC. It doesn't matter if you can use a mouse and keyboard on an Xbox, nobody is going to game on it like they do a PC. Using it as so is just redundant, and leads to a lot of software compatibility issues.

Consoles are starting to lose a lot of the appeal they used to have. It's getting to the point where you can't even purchase complete games anymore. The online sweetspot has given console developers casus belli to justify early releases followed by the extensive patching that has plagued PC Gaming since its inception. The pre-requisite of unstable HD standards is also going to create huge dents in gamer's pocketbooks, since they'll be shelling out over a thousand dollars for a television that may not even be viable in the next two years in addition to the original 300-600 dollars they payed for the console. The only company that isn't adopting these trends seems to be Nintendo, which is why the Wii will be the first Nintendo console I've owned since the original NES.

The fact of the matter is that consoles are beginning to cost as much to make as mid-range PCs. The PS3 costs over a thousand dollars US to make, yet Sony is only selling it for 600 in the hopes that software sales will subsidize their cost of production. That's a lot of games for the average owner to buy, which is pushing it, since the lowest common denominator isn't like you and me, and has an extensive game library.

PC Gaming is on the decline because PC games suck. Don't believe me? Let's take a look at the big genres as they stand today compared to a couple years ago.

Modern Role Playing games barely qualify as roleplaying experiences to begin with. I don't see how you can say roleplaying gamers are sure to love Oblivion when that title has more in common with Grand Theft Auto than franchises like Fallout, KOTOR, and the early Ultima series that create tangible consequences in the game world based on the player's choices. Low-budget offerings are on the right track, but they get no real exposure. That a lot of them tend to be developed in Europe doesn't help either.

First Person Shooters are a dime a dozen. HL2 had great single player and multiplayer, but it serves more as a springboard for Steam than anything else. Valve's pay-to-play content doesn't hold a candle to what free mods used to offer. I love DoD: Source, but it doesn't hold a candle to the original Day of Defeat in terms of what it offers. 3rd parties can't just code-in the British, after all. HL2:ep1 is the same stuff you played in the original HL2, only with an incremental story progression and more shots of Alyx's ass. Everybody likes the first Sin episode, of course, but there's a very legitimate concern over whether or not 6 hours of gameplay is worth 20 dollars.

Doom3 was a great single player experience, but its multiplayer is very noob-hostile in terms of its accessibility (people who have played Quake 3 for the past 6 years are much more knowlegeable of Id's engine dynamics than people like me). Quake 4, not surprisingly was phenomenally average, and Call of Duty 2 lacked some of the lustre of its predecessor while offering little more in terms of its multiplayer. It also doesn't help, I suppose, that a lot of these titles are cross-platform releases, and as a result have been "dumbed down" by PC standards.

RTSes are just lame. I'm sorry, but whether it's Swords and Sworcery, or starships and phasers, it's all the same shit from a decade ago. RTSes are only truly great when the playable factions are well balanced between each other, and the gameplay actually involves a level of strategy. Supreme Commander seems poised to offer these, but the rest of the genre falls flat on its face. Even the sweetspot tactical RTSes are lacking in a lot of respects. Having to cater to their small online element, Rome: Total War had AI that was even dumber than in Medieval, and the player could simply hold back and decimate the AI with arrows before moving in for the kill. Granted, this is how the English defeated the French with the longbow, but the difference between the French and Rome's AI is that the French actually fought.

Other than that, I honestly can't comment much on RTSes. The Warhammer 40k game Dawn of War seemed pretty solid, but I could only repeat what I've heard through 2nd hand.

Honestly, what's going to save PC Gaming is digital distribution and its accessibility to independant developers. Steam is great and all but Valve makes a lot of shady business practices, which is why the advent of Galactic Civilizations 2 has proven the viability of the PC as a future gaming platform.

Galciv2 proved a lot of things:

1. Copy Protection is horseshit. Galciv2 had no cd copy protection, and yet it still rose to the top of Wal-Mart's retail charts. This disproves the notion that gaming sales have gone down because of piracy, as opposed to the fact that PC games just suck.

2. Digital Distribution is a great way to make more money for developers. With the distributor taken out of the picture, that means a bigger slice of the pie for developers themselves, which supplements the cost of developing the next project. Galciv2 itself wouldn't have been possible if it hadn't been for the online success of the Windows Galciv, which created a lot of revenue for Stardock. Not bad for a 10 man development team, eh?

3. People aren't interested in the name as much as they are by the gameplay. Publishers latch onto franchises like they were candy found on the street, preserved in its wrapper. Fallout, Ultima, X-Com, Command & Conquer, countless franchises have fallen by the wayside because their sequels failed to offer experiences that satisfied the original fandom. Galciv 2 proved this by offering gameplay that Masters of Orion fans loved, but wasn't offered at all in MOO3. It isn't about the name of the game that draws people, or even the narrative. It's the game.

The future of PC gaming depends in a large part on how many companies are willing to follow Stardock's example. The end result would be a lot of low-budget titles that are accessible and fun to play while making the process viable to independant developers. Sure you'd still have your big-budget successes like your FEARs, and Half-Life 2s, but niche gaming is what will support the PC as a gaming platform, and really that's what PC Gaming has always been to the mainstream: a niche.

Yeah, Gaming Rigs don't exactly make affordable holiday gifts, but as it has been mentioned before, the PC gaming market is one that should cater to intellectuals. (very loose usage of that term, here)

PC Gamers expect more from their games than cross-platform hack jobs and gimmicky FPS features.
 
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kingcomrade said:
Dell's "cheap" high-end gaming system is delayed yet again.
While some people start to mind the wait for bargain @ $4665, there are other offerings available right now - prices range from $5k to $8k.
Jesus Christ, what a waste of money. I could build a great gaming computer with $600. Most people already have TVs for their console, and most people already own a computer with monitor and such, so beyond a graphics card, processor, and memory, what do you need to buy? Who the fuck would spend $4.6k on a gaming computer? Why not just visit Dell's president and ask him to ass rape you?

I spent around 3k on my last gaming rig, I didn't buy it from Dell I purchased all the components separately and the same setup probably would have cost about 5k from Dell. You're out of your mind if you think you could build a "great" gaming computer for 600. You could build something that might pass minimum spec but to qualify as great that 600 would just about cover the graphics card.
 

Zomg

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You can build a perfectly acceptable gaming machine for about $600, if you're building off of an old machine and you don't have to worry about stuff like a DVD drive, monitor, PSU, OS or case, which is what I expect KC is talking about - say, $1K starting from scratch. $600 is probably the price-performance peak for a single core CPU, RAM, HD and video card, particularly if you're enough of a nerd to figure out which of the current generation of mainstream level video cards is just a software lobotomized or underclocked version of the top end which can be un-gimped.
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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Er, what is there beyond "perfectly acceptable"? Getting 90 FPS instead of 60 FPS on games two years from now? You would pay a thousand extra dollars or two just for that?
 

Higher Game

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$600 is perfectly acceptable, $800 will run anything on decent settings, and $1000 is high-end. It's strange that computers have gotten so much cheaper, yet fewer people are gaming them...
 
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kingcomrade said:
Er, what is there beyond "perfectly acceptable"? Getting 90 FPS instead of 60 FPS on games two years from now? You would pay a thousand extra dollars or two just for that?

Yep.

But Euros not dollars....

also I like a big monitor with a decent res and refresh rate and plenty of hd space.....

and a responsive mouse....

A lot of it for me is geekdom to, like men going through their midlife crisis have to drive fast cars, I like to have a powerful PC. I always had incredibly shit machines when i was younger that would barely clunk along. Now that I have some disposable income I don't have to deal with that.
 

Data4

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Available overhead is good to have, especially for games running mods. Just to give an idea, when I play Flight Simulator, I have a program running in the background generating weatherscapes, another one providing a virtual co-pilot and misc sound effects ("Fasten your seatbelts", etc. IMMERSHUN!!), and one being used as a navigational moving map. That's on top of a program with a resident memory footprint of at least 350 MB at any given time, Flight Simulator itself. Yes I'm a geek. Shut up.

So yeah, you may not see the difference between steady 30 FPS and 130, but it's nice to have some imperceptible frames to whittle away with mods before a visible performance hit happens.

-D4
 

Jim Kata

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Well, a couple of things. The biggest is that most console gamers are children or 'young adults'. They can ask for an xbox for christmas, but they probably are not going to build a pc gaming rig. A lot of families really don't want kids on the interwebs, either (I wonder why???). Most kids think of a computer as 'the internet' and maybe something adults use for school stuff.

Now, if you are talking adults doing consoles, unless you love action games there is just no reason to get a console.

Game controllers suck ass for anything but an action game, and there is just not a selection of really great games out there. For every decent game there are 100 games that are (at least to me) utterly unbearable. I was watching one of my nephews play some game a week or so ago and I thought my head would explode it was so bizarre and stupid.
 

Bradylama

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I remember when I was wee, I was fascinated by PC gaming but couldn't do much with it on account of our computer being so slow (and me being too young to understand DOS). Then when I got in Middle School a friend of mine taught me how to enter commands in DOS and it became the halcyon days of Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries, X-Wing, Ultima VII, etc., etc., etc. None of which required a 3d accelerator.

Nowadays everything needs a 3D card with the exception of the Europa Universalis-based games and 2D tycoon games. My cousins all play Zoo Tycoon and some shitty free MMORPG called Runescape, and it pains me that they don't have the opportunity to play any real games like Fallout or Strike Commander.

That's just the way the PC cookie crumbles, though. There are just not enough unaccelerated games on the market to really develop an interest in the chillins.
 

kingcomrade

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Yep.

But Euros not dollars....

also I like a big monitor with a decent res and refresh rate and plenty of hd space.....

and a responsive mouse....
If you're spending your money on peripherals, why are we comparing it to a console?
 
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Peripherals are part of what makes a PC superior to console. Part mind, and I only spend a small percentage on that.
 

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