Stormgate - sci-fi/fantasy RTS from ex-Blizzard devs - now on Early Access

[Harthwain]

Raynor stole the plans for the psi-emitter and placed emitters on multiple inhabited planets specifically to lure the zerg there, where the zerg went on to kill about 90% of the human population of the entire sector (alongside Tassadar glassing the planets and their inhabitants after the zerg arrived).

A few corrections:

Spoiler

1) Raynor did no placing of emitters (and stealing the plans was accidental, by the way). The first emitter is planted by Kerrigan under Mengsk's orders. She doesn't like it, but ultimately the goal is for Sons of Korhal to escape the Confederate blockade. The second emitter is planted by Duke under Mengsk's orders and everyone else learns about it post-factum (and both Kerrigan and Raynor voice their protests to that).

2) Zerg were already invading the Terran sector. The Terran campaign opens with the wall of text about the Protoss doing exterminatus on Chau Sara colony out of the blue (as humans weren't aware about the Zerg there at the time). By the way, Tassadar "glasses" only one planet, as far as I am aware (the Zerg's campaign opens on Tarsonis, so it didn't get the same treatment as Tassadar decided against destroying the whole planets).

3) Where you got the stats about how many were killed in the entire sector? Just curious if I missed something in the game about it.

After the terran campaign ended, Raynor contributed nothing meaningful to the plot besides cameos in the following two campaigns. He was written to be the main character, but because the perspective shifted in each campaign, he was shoehorned into unnecessary cameos.

In the Zerg campaign he tries to save Kerrigan (Mengsk, too, sends general Duke to retrive her, after getting her "psionic call"). It may not be "meaningful" in terms of actually accomplishing anything, but it fits pretty well with the character, especially considering the ending of the Terran campaign. I suspect it was also supposed to show that Kerrigan is not entirely Zerg-ified yet because a full-blown Zerg would just kill Raynor on the spot, instead she actually recognizes him and allows him to live. It is also a good setup to fight two human factions at once.

In the Protoss campaign he "tags along" so that humans and Protoss can sort-of destroy the Overmind together and show that Protoss and Terrans can get along. Was it needed? From the story perspective, not really. However, it resulted in giving the player a joint mission, allowing him to control two races at once. I wouldn't dismiss that as an important factor is Blizzard shaping the bits of the story that way.

In BW, he helped Kerry take over the zerg despite knowing she would betray him. He literally says she would betray him in one mission.

He is - in Kerrigan's own words - "siding with the evil he knows over the evil he doesn't [know]". Helping the Zerg looks stupid, but it is not like the UED are the good guys either (or Mengsk, for that matter). Raynor doesn't really have many options there.

She publicly murdered a protoss head of state in front of hundreds of witnesses, specifically because he discovered her treachery, and somehow got off with a slap on the wrist (wtf?).

Aldaris was no "protoss head of state". He was a leader of the splinter group of Protoss' survivors from Aiur. He refused the offer to join forces after his defeat, so it is not unreasonable to assume he would've been killed anyway (as Artanis says: "Right now we have a friend to kill. May Adun forgive us..."). Did the Protoss have the means to kill Kerrigan? They were still in the middle of cleaning up Shakuras, and odds weren't in their favour. So it may have been a necessity more than anything else.

Then when she does predictably betray Raynor, he acts surprised and has to run away with his tail between his legs. He and his protoss friends took zero precautions even after she revealed her true colors multiple times. She then proceeds to butcher millions more terrans and protoss for funzies. (How many people even live in the sector? These numbers make no sense.) He never chose to stop the zerg, he chose to be faithful to Kerry over his own species and his protoss friends. He's an idiot.

I wouldn't say he acts surprised. More like enraged. Which makes sense. But I do agree that Raynor or Fenix (or both) having some sort of backup plan would've been more interesting, especially when they knew Kerrigan may turn on them.

By contrast, the UED were trying to stop the zerg from invading other planets like Earth by enslaving them. The protoss had already killed the previous Overmind, but still got overrun anyway, so their plan has a point here. Indeed, the UED deploys psi-disruptors at the same time specifically to prevent the zerg from running amuck even though this makes their slaves way less efficient. The UED doesn't actually do anything particularly evil on screen, but Raynor allies with Mengsk (who he hates for previously betraying him) against them anyway because of some bad stuff that happened centuries ago and clearly isn't relevant anymore. Plenty of fans think the UED are cool good guys even though they're supposed to be evil, since they never actually do anything villainous or unjustifiable by the circumstances. They tell the protoss and dominion to surrender peacefully and allow anyone who wants to join them to do so, such as the confederate remnants. It's the protoss and dominion who attack them first.

I wouldn't call the UED "cool good guys". More like "cool guys" who also happen to be some sort of dictatorship. It makes sense for Mengsk/Dominion to fight them. For Raynor to have more sense to fight them, the UED must have been made more apparent that they are the bad guys/the Evil Empire, because all we see is them destroying a colony in the intro for experimentary purposes.

Raynor is an asshole. He is directly responsible for billions of human deaths, but never takes responsibility or expresses remorse. He doesn't even hate Mengsk for being involved in the genocides, but only hates him for betraying his girlfriend. Raynor would've gladly run away with his girlfriend and let Mengsk burn the sector to the ground if Mengsk hadn't betrayed her, as he explained in briefing before Mengsk betrayed them.

"Directly responsible"? More like "indirectly responsible". Otherwise I agree.

He's an idiot, because he choses to ally with known enemies instead of the diplomatic UED.

You really consider "We're here to take control" or "power down your ships and weapons' systems" to be a diplomatic approach? To me it sounds more like "Surrender or we will attack you". The UED's very first mission is an attack on the Terran Dominion. It is dipomacy via the barrel of a revolver.

This writing is terrible. While writer Metzen might've intended to say one thing, the text actually says quite another. You have to ignore the actual events in order for Metzen's intent to be valid here.

No idea what you're talking about here. What Metzen intended to say? What "actual events" are being ignored?

I think the same of the game script it is adapted from. It’s a weak story that doesn’t stand on its own.

I would say the problem lies slightly elsewhere: the book has to follow the plot of the game while at the same time using an investigative journalist's POV. This restrictive corset of a plot is hampering the book's narrative as a result as the protagonist is too close to the events to take a more distanced approach to the story of the game.

I would say it does so very rushed and poorly. The manual painted the broad strokes of a much longer and larger war. The game script rapidly burns through all the plot hooks introduced, does not give proper breathing room, then starts making shit up and retconning things when the expansion rolls around.

The manual marks the beginning of the war. The game "burns through all the plot hooks" probably because it wasn't intended for there to be Starcraft 2 (or an expansion). Frankly, I think Blizzard did a decent job at salvaging the story for the expansion, even if it did some retconning in the process. It also helps that the missions in general have greater variety and are more challenging.

At the end of day, starcraft 1 is a mediocre story and a poor execution of its universe’s potential. It was always a terrible foundation for a franchise and always would’ve turned out poorly in sequels.

More like decent story and good execution. And Broodwar proves you wrong about any followup inevitably turning out poorly. Chris Metzen worked with James Phinney on both Starcraft and Broodwar (he is credited as the second creator for the story, script and scenario design). He didn't work on Starcraft 2. Makes me think how much of an impact he really had on how the story turned out, and how much the lack of his presence hurt the development of Starcraft 2's story (which is evident).

Okay, but that’s not gonna convince me that anything I said is wrong.

I didn't expect anything less.

I’ve spent the years since LotV released examining the scripts and coming to the conclusion that they’re terrible.

 

[DoWhocares]

Like, what kind of story do you expect/want?

I guess it all goes back to the "hacks" argument. My key idea is that you can tell a "bad" (as in not deeply detailed, with plot holes, etc.) story in an enjoyable and relatable way. Which is what happens in SC1, WC3. The RTS mission format helps stomach that story because it makes it easy for your mind to fill in the blanks and build up a complete picture in your head that will actually make sense. The limitations of old tech also help there. You get 3 lines from Uther and you imagine this cool paladin dude with a lot of backstory with Arthas. And because you accept they can't give you all the details in a game about building armies and killing orcs, you don't mind that the actual relationship between the two as shown in the cutscenes is far from amiable and more bitchy than anything. What later RTS games do, is they go all in on the cinmeatic experience and fill in those blanks for you. When they do, it's hard not to focus on their shortcommings. And that's the key problem with them.

If you consider that to be nostalgia goggles, then count me guilty.

The entire point of RTS is that you play competing factions. It makes no sense to ignore them when they’re the point of the game.

See, and this is where you and just about everyone else diverges. Because this intrinsic connection between RTS and factions exists only in your head.

Still, like I've mentioned before, this deep dive into the storytelling of these games has merit. Pointing out flaws and putting more thought into it than the writers themselves did is good. Even if it points out those flaws in something I personally enjoy (SC1 for example). But then you turn around and sabotage yourself when you base a lot of your criticisms on this idea that RTS = factions.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I watched a video recently that explained how the typical scaling in RTS doesn’t make much sense.


You’re rarely controlling more than a few dozen units, but the briefings expect you to believe you’re single handedly saving the universe. A solution suggested is to focus on small scale stories that fit the scales shown in gameplay.

Which brings me to my point…

Saying “RTS stories were better in 2000 A.D.!” isn’t solving anything. Writers are taking their cues directly from those stories, outright ripping them off in many cases, and still disappointing you. The sequels are all terrible despite being written by the same guys in many cases. Emulating past stories just isn’t working.

Clearly, a different approach is needed.

I think I have some idea of why these writers aren’t writing well. They’re not writing military and political stories that suit the RTS premise of competing armies or the scales involved. As long as RTS “writers” continue to be completely ignorant of military history, political and military fiction, and think you can glue together a dating sim or a schlocky rpg story to a galactic war premise and call it a day, then they’ll continue to disappoint you.

I have some suggestions to address that. Hire writers who actually write military fiction and who like world building military organizations, politics and cultures. Tell smaller scale stories that better suit the gameplay. Put effort into world building the factions as actual organizations and cultures with consistent ideology and history. Write the characters as actual people with consistent motivations and reasonable intellect, and who are members of these organizations and citizens of these cultures. Plan ahead so you don’t burn through plot hooks and have to contrive increasingly flimsy excuses later.

In other words, Write a good foundation that can stand on its own, whether it’s for an RTS or a book or a movie. Don’t treat it simply as an excuse to string together missions. Don’t treat the factions as worthless. Don’t treat character consistency as worthless. Otherwise you’re just gonna keep being disappointed.

I think a good example of the right direction would be the upcoming RTS Immortal: Gates of Pyre. While it doesn’t have as big a budget as its competitors, the team has put tremendous effort into world building and planning ahead. While they do have characters (i.e. the titular “immortals” who command the armies and have support superpowers to explain the co-op mechanics), these characters are written with consistent motives and are written as members of their factions. Said factions are given deep lore so that they can stand on their own, regardless of what characters are involved. The aliens have radically different needs and drives compared to humans, which is reflected in their behavior and actions. They’re not interchangeable with humans. For example, the angels (it had angels before Stormgate did) live for many thousands of years, so they plan on such scales: they’ve spent the last few millennia building a empire of human vassal states using diplomacy and the occasional invasion using legalistic pretense, relying on the short lifespan of humans to prevent the humans from realizing what’s happening. It’s so simple that I’m surprised this is the first time anyone thought to write that.

I wish more RTS put even a fraction of that effort into their stories.

 

[Venser]

 

[ghardy]

The music's okay. It's not bad.

 

[Alienman]

The vocals sound a bit like the Alone in the dark main theme from 2008.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Bulgarian folklore is the hot shit it seems with all the trap remixes and bombastic trailer music.

 

[MasterofThunder]

Stormgate is a joke. "Free to play", no offline mode at launch, and multiple tiers/editions to purchase like any other AAA game. I can forgive the art design if they showed any sign of respect towards their customers, but they clearly are not. I suppose you can take the Blizzard employees out of Blizzard, but not the other way around.

 

[MasterofThunder]

If you were tasked to do a complete reboot of both Warcraft and Starcraft, with absolute freedom, how would you reimagine both franchises and develop their mechanics and storylines further?. Currently, both are at a creative dead end. World of Warcraft's story was never good, and Starcraft went full Saturday morning cartoon with Starcraft II. Stormgate could've been something that rectified the problem, as a spiritual successor, but that definitely isn't happening.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

If you were tasked to do a complete reboot of both Warcraft and Starcraft, with absolute freedom, how would you reimagine both franchises and develop their mechanics and storylines further?. Currently, both are at a creative dead end. World of Warcraft's story was never good, and Starcraft went full Saturday morning cartoon with Starcraft II. Stormgate could've been something that rectified the problem, as a spiritual successor, but that definitely isn't happening.

You need to design the settings as open-ended sandboxes and give each race/faction a robust cultural/ideological foundation. Basically, do what a typical tabletop game or toy franchise does.

In an RTS game context, this means you’ll have to discard the idea of a singular linear continuous story. Instead you should make a plethora of campaigns focusing on different theaters and battles. Much like how WW2 games are designed.

Stormgate is probably not gonna be as bad as WoW or SC2 got, at least not initially. But I expect after a few years the story and setting will similarly fall apart. Maybe sooner.

Alternatively, you can invest in the indie RTS Immortal: Gates of Pyre. They spend a lot of time making sure their faction lore is robust and can stand on its own.

 

[MasterofThunder]

If you were tasked to do a complete reboot of both Warcraft and Starcraft, with absolute freedom, how would you reimagine both franchises and develop their mechanics and storylines further?. Currently, both are at a creative dead end. World of Warcraft's story was never good, and Starcraft went full Saturday morning cartoon with Starcraft II. Stormgate could've been something that rectified the problem, as a spiritual successor, but that definitely isn't happening.

You need to design the settings as open-ended sandboxes and give each race/faction a robust cultural/ideological foundation. Basically, do what a typical tabletop game or toy franchise does.

In an RTS game context, this means you’ll have to discard the idea of a singular linear continuous story. Instead you should make a plethora of campaigns focusing on different theaters and battles. Much like how WW2 games are designed.

Stormgate is probably not gonna be as bad as WoW or SC2 got, at least not initially. But I expect after a few years the story and setting will similarly fall apart. Maybe sooner.

Alternatively, you can invest in the indie RTS Immortal: Gates of Pyre. They spend a lot of time making sure their faction lore is robust and can stand on its own.

I don't expect detailed storytelling on the level of Dune for Warcraft or Starcraft. Both are pulp-style entertainment and not intended to be read into as deeply as other franchises would be. Warcraft came out of D&D sessions. The orcs are demon spawn, and the humans are noble paladins. I don't need to know the inner workings of Lordaeron's Kingdom, it's tax policies and economic prospects. Nor do I need to know the details of the Confederacy or the UED. Even if such stories 'could' be interesting, they will inevitably be made in bad taste and serve as a demoralising humiliation ritual like George R.R Martin's Game of Thrones was. A Blizzard RTS should have an exciting presentation and be above all, fun. The antithesis of modern gaming, in other words.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

A Blizzard RTS should have an exciting presentation and be above all, fun.

That focus on style over substance is why their stories fell apart. I’m not suggesting we go over Aragorn’s tax policy. I’m saying we need to put effort into making sure the world building and storytelling doesn’t fall apart on a basic level. Do you want the cool moments to make sense rather than being a disconnected mess? Kill your darlings and such. Otherwise you’re just gonna keep running into the same problems.

 

[MasterofThunder]

I agree that the "lore" needs to be properly laid out, and with a reboot in mind and with full hindsight, I think that can be done by a competent team. There should be a plan laid out for a new trilogy of some sort, with a proper beginning, middle and end. Or if they don't want to risk alienating new players, tell a consistent story but somewhat loosely. Starcraft had a lot more story than Warcraft 1 and 2 from the getgo, and it wasn't until Warcraft 3 that a genuine, character-driven plot was attempted. But there are times when I felt that the story was hampered by being an RTS, rather than a third-person action game of some sort. The scale never really matched up, you're supposed to be commanding an army yet it felt like I was commanding a small squad most of the time. I also felt that Arthas' fall into evil happened a bit too quickly. Like there were two or three campaign missions that were missing. Because it happened so fast, and for reasons that were easily avoidable, I could never fully appreciate the plot.

The story needs to be consistent with the genre. You're never going to convey a Silent Hill story as a tactical RPG, or a Chrono Trigger story as an FPS. I still wish a game like Starcraft: Ghost was released, because Blizzard clearly wanted to tell a character-driven story but were also bound by the RTS genre.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Blizzard clearly wanted to tell a character-driven story but were also bound by the RTS genre.

The problems with Blizz-style RTS in a nutshell. These writers don’t want to put even minimal effort into the politics, ideologies and faction dynamics necessary for a story that properly fits the RTS format. So they end up making this awkward mess instead, where they treat the factions as accessory superpowers instead of actual factions.

That’s how we get stupid shit like making the leader of the tyranid ripoffs into a girlboss daemonette with boyfriend issues.

I agree that the "lore" needs to be properly laid out, and with a reboot in mind and with full hindsight, I think that can be done by a competent team. There should be a plan laid out for a new trilogy of some sort, with a proper beginning, middle and end. Or if they don't want to risk alienating new players, tell a consistent story but somewhat loosely.

At this point it would probably be better to just make a new IP rather than reuse that brand name. Starcraft is soiled enough as it is and the fanboys will whine if anything gets changed.

 

[Harthwain]

The problems with Blizz-style RTS in a nutshell. These writers don’t want to put even minimal effort into the politics, ideologies and faction dynamics necessary for a story that properly fits the RTS format. So they end up making this awkward mess instead, where they treat the factions as accessory superpowers instead of actual factions.

That's not true. The manual has "politics, ideologies and faction dynamics" much more fleshed out (including sub-factions for each race). It's just that they went for more personal story in the game itself and most of that material went unused or is at best a footnote in the game.

 

[ghardy]

The scale never really matched up, you're supposed to be commanding an army yet it felt like I was commanding a small squad most of the time.

Ancillary point: the move to 3D was cited as the reason for lower number of units, which also changed the feel of the game, compared with its predecessor, StarCraft.
(Interestingly, I think the same point applies to Quake, as the move to 3D made necessary fewer units and smaller maps, also changing the feel of the game from Doom)

 

[RaggleFraggle]

The problems with Blizz-style RTS in a nutshell. These writers don’t want to put even minimal effort into the politics, ideologies and faction dynamics necessary for a story that properly fits the RTS format. So they end up making this awkward mess instead, where they treat the factions as accessory superpowers instead of actual factions.

That's not true. The manual has "politics, ideologies and faction dynamics" much more fleshed out (including sub-factions for each race). It's just that they went for more personal story in the game itself and most of that material went unused or is at best a footnote in the game.

That’s adding insult to injury. We don’t even know when the manual was written, so it might’ve been irrelevant filler written by an intern for flavor. It’s too little, too late.

Focusing on personal stories has ended up terribly for RTS. The zerg were introduced as a tyranid ripoff, which I’m always in the mood for, but then their campaign ended up being about a bipolar girlboss mary sue who commits war crimes to get revenge on her ex before being rewarded by becoming a space god. It’s fucking stupid, and as a fan of ants and voracious alien hives I find it especially stupid, insulting, and completely inappropriate for the format.

I’ve played the tyranid campaigns in 40k games and they’re so fucking boring. No “awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright” anywhere. It’s either just “on nom nom” or a magos biologis describing them from a distance. I don’t want the swarm to be rendered unrecognizable by the addition of disgusting human characters, but I would appreciate some characterization to avoid them being so boring. One of the few smart ideas Blizz came up with was overmind and cerebrates, for all of five minutes before chucking it in the trash.

I wish hack writers would stop this. Make an RPG, 3PS or dating sim. That’s obviously what they really want to do instead of RTS. I don’t even play RTS anymore because of these hacks poisoning the well.

Like, how the fuck does a giant robot anime franchise like Gundam do politics better than RTS? It’s full of characters and character dynamics and giant robot battles and is designed to sell model kits, but the writers are able to easily pull off complicated faction dynamics in between robot battles. How is RTS so vastly inferior?

But I digress

 

[MasterofThunder]

Focusing on personal stories has ended up terribly for RTS

Not necessarily. The first Starcraft had a good setup, but was subsequently ruined with Brood War and Wings of Liberty. Kerrigan should have remained dead, and the zerg should've taken on more of a Flood-like role. More horrific and not seen as often, until they are in a position of advantage. Raynor should've also been more of an antagonist or anti-hero, with his units having more of a rogueish appearance, and Valerian or some other noble character his opposite having a more polished assortment of soldiers and vehicles. Perhaps as Raynor, you could do some bounty missions and expand your command ship, upgrading your units and abilities?. These are just vague ideas.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

the zerg should've taken on more of a Flood-like role. More horrific and not seen as often, until they are in a position of advantage.

The zerg should’ve always been like that from the start of the franchise. Blizz already set things up with the overmind and cerebrates, then took an idiotic detour with psychotic girlboss.

Kerrigan should have remained dead,

I think infested Kerry never should’ve been born in the first place. (Original human Kerry is inoffensive, I guess?)

These are just vague ideas.

Their stories are over, they sucked ass, and they don’t deserve to be revived for more shitty requels. No offense.

I absolutely despise how Blizz handled Starcraft. They could’ve done a simple serious setting about space marines fighting off alien aggression, and more besides, but turned it into a bad soap opera where the terrans spend all their time fighting each other over petty personal vendettas while ignoring the genocidal aliens eating and incinerating the planets they live on.

It’s not salvageable imo, too many stupid precedents. Hence why I suggested making a new brand name rather than trying to reboot this stupid shit. As I’ve mentioned before, it’s not very hard to make a similar IP drawing on tropes.

E.g. The Consortium is a loose confederation of mining guilds that have designed their infrastructure around mining, explaining why their buildings have mobile modes. They’re also cyborg cowboys, because space westerns are fun.
The Swarm is an ancient horror going on a galactic eating spree in order to gain genomes for R&D so they can become perfect beings and survive the heat death of the universe. Humans are next on the menu.
The Celestials are an empire of commie ecofascist space police who find the capitalist humans and voracious bugs threats to galactic peace.

Not rocket science.

I’m astonished that Stormgate is such a disaster aesthetically. They had an easy chance to learn from Blizz’s mistakes, but instead doubled down. Even if they have all those interesting new mechanics, I’m not gonna waste my time on a story mode that insults my intelligence. Fuck these hack writers.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Checking the stormgate fandom wiki.

According to the page, the celestials are super advanced, immortal via their technology, but they’re a dying race and use robots for their military.

Of course they’re a dying race, they have to ripoff the protoss in almost every way including that. Nevermind that their technology is probably able to mass clone themselves.

Could we have advanced species that aren’t dying out sometime?

 

[ArchAngel]

The scale never really matched up, you're supposed to be commanding an army yet it felt like I was commanding a small squad most of the time.

Ancillary point: the move to 3D was cited as the reason for lower number of units, which also changed the feel of the game, compared with its predecessor, StarCraft.
(Interestingly, I think the same point applies to Quake, as the move to 3D made necessary fewer units and smaller maps, also changing the feel of the game from Doom)

?? Sc2 has bigger battles with more units than Sc1 because it is much easier to make them and control them. In Sc1 you rarely do 200 vs 200 supply battles, in Sc2 that is like 75% of the battles after midgame.

 

[ghardy]

?? Sc2 has bigger battles with more units than Sc1 because it is much easier to make them and control them. In Sc1 you rarely do 200 vs 200 supply battles, in Sc2 that is like 75% of the battles after midgame.

My point was in the context of tech and game moving from 2D to 3D:
Doom --> Quake
StarCraft --> WarCraft 3

Change in technology made necessary change in gameplay. (At first at least.)

 

[MasterofThunder]

Starcraft II released in 2010, Warcraft 3 was released in 2003. The gulf in computer hardware was massive, so rendering large numbers of units became feasible. It would be no problem to do a widescale RTS nowadays, if somebody would make one.

 

[ArchAngel]

Starcraft II released in 2010, Warcraft 3 was released in 2003. The gulf in computer hardware was massive, so rendering large numbers of units became feasible. It would be no problem to do a widescale RTS nowadays, if somebody would make one.

There is plenty of those, even from back then with Total Annihilation.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Starcraft II released in 2010, Warcraft 3 was released in 2003. The gulf in computer hardware was massive, so rendering large numbers of units became feasible. It would be no problem to do a widescale RTS nowadays, if somebody would make one.

Sanctuary Shattered Sun is currently being made