Stormgate - sci-fi/fantasy RTS from ex-Blizzard devs

[Lyric Suite]

Hah, got to Protoss 3. Notice how after that melanchonic and nostalgic first section, you can hear wind in the background with this alien series of harmonies, obviously intended to signify Aiur, from which eventually a triumphant march emerges that ends the piece in a short crescendo. Whoever wrote this actually thought this through. The music tells something about the Protoss, it's not just random noices meant to sound generically atmospheric.

Meanwhile in Zerg we sense discovery, mystery, birth and evolution. It's not cosmic like the Protoss, it reaches into the depths, because the Zerg are a new race trying to discover themselves, and you can almost feel the exitement of being alive. The music is vibrant, even when it sinks into the darkest regions, like in the middle of Zerg 3 where it feels you are taken into the primordial where you first hear what seems like the "screams" of new emerging life and then this driving, drumming section as they emerge and move forward.

I don't know what they put in the water but it's like there's a 50 IQ points drop off from 90s devs to modern ones. Actually, make that 100. Everything nowadays is such mind numbing generic slop.

 

[duke nukem]

BTW, speaking of the soundtrack again, i'm getting the sense some people here doesn't actually understand just how good it is. Might not be obvious unless you play it outside the game, since the gameplay is busy enough to distract you from it:



While i was making this post i listened to Protoss 1 again and the construction of that song is as amazing as i remembered it. It's like a minature techno-synth symphony, triumphant and alien at the same time, with some knock out harmonic progressions.

Terrain music doesnt make sense. Why advansed human civilization would have some redneck inbred alabama music? Thats even less immersive than assassin creed`s hiphop combat music when you play as black samurai. Protoss and zerg where is the real instruments? I do like the main theme.

Best and peak blizzard is Warcraft 2 music:

Actual REAL music instruments instead of weird ass noises.

Now if only they made wc4 and would go back to it roots and would make real music again.


Looks like new assets has been revealed, looks great:

 

[Johannes]

What part of terrain music is inbred redneck alabama? The terrain aesthetic is partly the confederate stuff so idk if it wouldn't fit, but afaik it's not there in the music

 

[RaggleFraggle]

The Zerg soundtrack for instance fits perfectly the concept of a new race who is exploring its new existence. The music isn't just ominious and generically evil. It's vibrant and full of expectancy.

Until Metzen shit on their whole concept by introducing the space succubus.

I get what you mean, but Blizz really shat the bed in the writing and worldbuilding. It’s less obvious and obscured by nostalgia and production values elsewhere, but it’s still there. It’s not fair to ignore that and pretend the game is more amazing than it is based solely on vibes. Blizz dropped the ball there and it drags down the whole product.

What galls me about Stormgate and Zerospace is that they’ve learned absolutely nothing from that. They’re doubling down on all the stupid stuff I hated. The infernal, celestial, protectorate, etc are painfully generic and uninspired. Everyone is humanoid. Etc.

You have a better understanding of what makes a good RTS? Then you should make it. With decent music, art, world building and stuff. I’m sick of seeing bad games get made and praised by tasteless shills.

 

[Lyric Suite]

What part of terrain music is inbred redneck alabama? The terrain aesthetic is partly the confederate stuff so idk if it wouldn't fit, but afaik it's not there in the music

Terran music is amazing too the guy is talking shit. It's humans in SPACE. That's the tone of the soundtrack. It makes you think of space exploration and the stars, though at the same time it's still home, which sets the Terrans as far apart as possible from the two other races, which was likely the intended effect. I like it because it's so different from any other sci-fi soundtrack i ever heard.

Best and peak blizzard is Warcraft 2 music:

Actual REAL music instruments instead of weird ass noises.

Those are not real instrument. That soundtrack was made on a Roland.

Personally, i like them all. Warcraft 2, Diablo 1 & 2 and Starcraft constitute a kind of peak, while WC3 and WoW Vanilla were still pretty good though something was starting to get lost.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Until Metzen shit on their whole concept by introducing the space succubus.

I haven't played Starcraft single player since forever so i have the only vaguest memory of the "story". All i remember is that i was non-plussed by Brood War and i felt something was slipping through the cracks with Diablo 2 already. That said, i clearly remember WC3 as being the game that made me scoff, though even that isn't even remotely as atrocious as SC2.

 

[AgentFransis]

Slipping through the cracks? Diablo 2's story is basically the same as the first - "there are a bunch of demons all over the place and you really rather there weren't". They're proper combatfag games in the spirit of the roguelikes they were inspired by.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I like the space western aesthetic because it’s better than the bland non-aesthetic you see for humans everywhere in scifi. Like Stormgate and Zerospace. But it’s not the only aesthetic

What I would love is if the human civilization was composed of historical lifestylers who emulated ancient cultures, like samurai, cowboys, musketeers, etc. If I was writing human colonies, then I’d give them various ethnicities, accents and cultures to make them feel more grounded and alive.

Until Metzen shit on their whole concept by introducing the space succubus.

I haven't played Starcraft single player since forever so i have the only vaguest memory of the "story". All i remember is that i was non-plussed by Brood War and i felt something was slipping through the cracks with Diablo 2 already. That said, i clearly remember WC3 as being the game that made me scoff, though even that isn't even remotely as atrocious as SC2.

Ah, that explains it. The story is complete garbage. Blizz adapted the first two episodes into novels, Liberty’s Crusade and Queen of Blades, before giving up because it didn’t sell.

I don’t like WC3 either. It relies on tired cliches, characters acting like idiots to move the plot, and there are numerous plot holes because they made it up as they went.

For example, Frostmourne is locked in a hidden vault and guarded by ice ghosts who openly tell Arthas it’s evil and they’re protecting the world from it. Then in the very next campaign you’re immediately told it was an evil plot by the lich king to turn Arthas to his side.

What? The lich king went to all that effort to make it look like wasn’t part of his evil plot but some completely unrelated evil plot, then never does anything similarly theatrical ever again? This clearly reads like it was written as two (or more) separate stories that were then crudely stitched together.

SC1 is similarly nonsensical. The writers make things up as they go, stitch together concepts made by different teams, constantly contradict themselves, etc. It’s terrible.

The worst part is that fanboys think this is the most amazing story ever and don’t tolerate dissent. Blegh

 

[Johannes]

Brood War story is clearly just tacked on, the original game was wrapped up but then they came up with extra story for the expansion. The first campaigns are simple but serviceable, then in BW it gets a lot more into the soap opera between the characters, with Kerrigan / Duran somehow constantly getting away with tricking everyone. Which isn't great but neither is it super cringeworthy, like Emo Raynor in SC2 is for example.

 

[Lyric Suite]

SC2 is just a case of unsurpassable retardation. I couldn't believe it when i played Wings of Liberty. I don't unstand how a company with trillion of dollars could churn out something THAT insipid. I'm pretty sure Wings of Liberty is the game that made me gave up on Blizzard completely, though Diablo 3 did a lot too.

WC3 was mostly just generic in an inoffensive sort of way but occationally it did reach absurd levels of retardation. Like the encounter between Illidan and Arthas, where they literally do that whole "our powers are perfectly matched we could fight for a thousand years" animu shit. You also had shit characters like Tyrande who was basically an unhinged third wave feminist who constantly felt the need to humiliate Malfurion even though the guy did nothing to deserve it and was basically right about everything. I can't even tell whether she was supposed to be an intentional parody of feminism or if you were unironically meant to root for her.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I don’t mind characters in RTS stories, but I get annoyed when they’re a bad soap opera that take over the story to the exclusion of the actual factions. Blizz stories are all terrible about this. The RTS part is just tacked on to a bad dating sim.

But people call me unreasonable for disliking this and wanting stories to focus on the factions. They say I have impossible standards and never like anything, right after I tell them that I don’t have this problem with most other RTS. The Westwood, Petroglyph and Relic games don’t suffer these problems. It’s a problem specifically with Blizz and their imitators. But I’m the weirdo who won’t conform, apparently

 

[Lyric Suite]

It seems to me you are just writing your own movie in your head. Nobody said a single thing about any of that shit.

The quality in the writing of Blizzard games was always pedestrian but there was a time when it wasn't outright cringe inducing until much later. RTS writing is also all over the place as a matter of course. If anything, Blizzard stands out precisely because they actually tried to make something that was more involved than the typical RTS plot, it's just that they didn't have the chops to pull it off. Their failure in this reguard was more noticable precisely because they were more ambitious than a lot of other dev studios, most of whom barely even tried (and occationally were better off for it).

 

[RaggleFraggle]

It seems to me you are just writing your own movie in your head. Nobody said a single thing about any of that shit.

Not here. On other venues. Whenever I try to discuss it in those places, it devolves into pointless circular arguments and insults from shills and “it costs too much for RTS devs to hire decent writers” and blah blah shut the fuck up.

This forum is one of the few places where I feel like people actually have taste for once. Have actual brains behind their eyes.

The quality in the writing of Blizzard games was always pedestrian but there was a time when it wasn't outright cringe inducing until much later. RTS writing is also all over the place as a matter of course. If anything, Blizzard stands out precisely because they actually tried to make something that was more involved than the typical RTS plot, it's just that they didn't have the chops to pull it off. Their failure in this reguard was more noticable precisely because they were more ambitious than a lot of other dev studios, most of whom barely even tried (and occationally were better off for it).

They still get tons of undeserved praise from people who played as children or are shill cultists. Most RTS fans think they’re the pinnacle of writing.

Their older stories might not seem cringe inducing based on memory, but if you stopped to analyze them critically then they’ll probably seem worse than you remember. After all, you said you don’t remember SC1’s script.

I don’t need amazing writing, but Blizz and their shills really piss me off because they shit all over the factions and worship their crappy mary sues. I wish there were better fandoms. 40k doesn’t really do it for me anymore. I can’t stand the Ultrasmurf wank.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Must have been a later thing, because back in the heyday of Blizzard, there wasn't much talk about "muh story". They were mostly known for the slickness of their design and for being among the first to ride the crest of multiplayer when that was still a new thing (Warcraft 2 was present in every LAN party i've ever been to). Even the cinematics were mostly humorous, relying on funny cliches etc. I remember only the Diablo 2 promo cinematic gathered any sort of attention from a story telling point of view (with reason, since it was actually pretty cool) but mostly back then i don't recall people liking Blizzard because of the writing. It was the art, the music, the design, the humor, the ease by which their games could be played and yet there was still complexity down the line.

Like i said, WC3 for me is the first time i started thinking Blizzard had gone over their head, trying to weave this grand, large scale adventure despite their writers being too mediocre to pull it. I let it pass because i think mechanically WC3 is probably the best game they have ever done but i wouldn't be surprised if that's what started the ball rolling on "muh deep story" retardation that culminated with SC2. WoW too probably had a lot to do with it as well, though to be honest it was still contained when i played vanilla.

Basically, there's two eras of Blizzard writing. The early era, which lasted until Wrath of the Lich King, where the writing was sort of pedestrian and after WC2 and Diablo 1 also felt a bit like it was written by commetee (most noticable when talking to NPCs in Diablo 2, or at least that's when it first stood out for me). The writing in this period was stupid but mostly tolerable, aside for a few terribad moments in WC3.

Then came the era of truly utter, unbearable cringe, which for me started with SC2 and Cataclysm. I don't know how bad it got after that since that's when i quit playing Blizzard games altoghether.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Must have been a later thing, because back in the heyday of Blizzard, there wasn't much talk about "muh story".

Right. I only noticed it after I decided to get into Starcraft after LotV released. I originally played SC1 in the late 90s/early 2000s and then forgot about it until then. I was surprised the story was so bad in SC2. I checked the story in SC1 and was surprised to discover it was mediocre at best. It bulldozed its own worldbuilding to prop up Kerry Sue, the characters act like morons to force the plot forward, any hint of politics are shallow caricatures, there are numerous inconsistencies, etc. I didn’t like it at all, especially the way the factions got shat on by the writing. I complained online and was dogpiled by rabid fanboys. It was so obnoxious that to this day I still have problems getting past the cyberbullying I suffered then. I pretty much cannot have a civil conversation with any starcraft lore fans for very long before they get angry and tell me “fuck you hater for not sucking Metzen’s dick.”

WC1/2 didn’t have deep story. They had exposition briefings and that was it. Starting in SC1 Blizz hired Metzen to write stories with characters and interpersonal drama. He didn’t have the chops for it. Things only got worse from there.

What is especially frustrating to me is that the story has some genuinely interesting and novel ideas here and there. The terrans have this backstory involving cyborgs, cowboys, mining guilds, colonies jockeying for power, themes of environmental destruction run amuck… The protoss have a backstory involving Force duality, imperialism, space romans, space police, the ethics of power, etc. The zerg have a backstory involving biological horror, the pursuit of perfection, mass destruction, more personality than your typical tyranid clone… I have yet to find any other story, much less an RTS story, make use of these elements. It’s a sore point for me because I would love to see those ideas realized and I would like to discuss it with a like-minded community.

I know 40k touches on a bit of similar ideas, but it’s not the same. I got tired of 40k a long time ago. I just wish RTS lore could be even a fraction as interesting.

Stormgate and Zerospace gall me. Not only do they not learn anything from Metzen’s mistakes, they double down on dumbing things down.

 

[ArchAngel]

Must have been a later thing, because back in the heyday of Blizzard, there wasn't much talk about "muh story".

Right. I only noticed it after I decided to get into Starcraft after LotV released. I originally played SC1 in the late 90s/early 2000s and then forgot about it until then. I was surprised the story was so bad in SC2. I checked the story in SC1 and was surprised to discover it was mediocre at best. It bulldozed its own worldbuilding to prop up Kerry Sue, the characters act like morons to force the plot forward, any hint of politics are shallow caricatures, there are numerous inconsistencies, etc. I didn’t like it at all, especially the way the factions got shat on by the writing. I complained online and was dogpiled by rabid fanboys. It was so obnoxious that to this day I still have problems getting past the cyberbullying I suffered then. I pretty much cannot have a civil conversation with any starcraft lore fans for very long before they get angry and tell me “fuck you hater for not sucking Metzen’s dick.”

WC1/2 didn’t have deep story. They had exposition briefings and that was it. Starting in SC1 Blizz hired Metzen to write stories with characters and interpersonal drama. He didn’t have the chops for it. Things only got worse from there.

What is especially frustrating to me is that the story has some genuinely interesting and novel ideas here and there. The terrans have this backstory involving cyborgs, cowboys, mining guilds, colonies jockeying for power, themes of environmental destruction run amuck… The protoss have a backstory involving Force duality, imperialism, space romans, space police, the ethics of power, etc. The zerg have a backstory involving biological horror, the pursuit of perfection, mass destruction, more personality than your typical tyranid clone… I have yet to find any other story, much less an RTS story, make use of these elements. It’s a sore point for me because I would love to see those ideas realized and I would like to discuss it with a like-minded community.

I know 40k touches on a bit of similar ideas, but it’s not the same. I got tired of 40k a long time ago. I just wish RTS lore could be even a fraction as interesting.

Stormgate and Zerospace gall me. Not only do they not learn anything from Metzen’s mistakes, they double down on dumbing things down.

You are expecting too much. As far as stories in RTS go, Sc1+BW has the best one (in combination with the presentation). But I do agree that the world of Starcraft 1 is more interesting than the stories of the game.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You are expecting too much.

I don't expect much. Blizz writing is just insulting bad, especially for the RTS format. They write bad rpg stories or bad dating sim stories and bolt on an RTS due to contractual obligations. I've been more or less satisfied with the stories in other RTS like Command & Conquer, Red Alert, Grey Goo, Universe at War, Homeworld, Emperor: Battle for Dune, Impossible Creatures, etc. Those writers actually knew their limits when it came to writing characters, they didn't write soap operatic capeshit that shat on their own factions, and sometimes they were willing to lean into the b-movie aesthetic. I'm a lot more forgiving of writing problems if the story is deliberately silly and tongue-in-cheek.

Blizz and their rabid fanboys take themselves seriously like pretentious fuckwits, so I judge them according to the same serious criteria. I find them... wanting.

As far as stories in RTS go, Sc1+BW has the best one (in combination with the presentation).

They're a triumph of style over substance, perhaps. The presentation is nice, sure, but the scripts are brain dead garbage. People only praise it because of childhood nostalgia and because everyone on the team except the writer did their jobs. If it had released nowadays, then you would be shredding the script as garbage, just like you're shredding Stormgate. Blizzard themselves adapted the first two episodes into novels but gave up on adapting the rest because those novels didn't sell.

Do you want me to list some problems with the writing in an attempt to sway your opinion, or should I save my breath because nothing anyone can say will convince you to change your mind?

Indeed, how many other RTS stories can you actually name? How you played all that many? Did you do a critical analysis and comparison with Blizz writing to prove that Blizz is indeed the best according to your own criteria? What criteria do you use? Do you actually remember the scripts? Can you describe the plot from memory?

EDIT: On second thought, it doesn't matter. Nevermind.

What we need now isn't nostalgia for some idealized past. We need better RTS now and in the future.

 

[ghardy]

WC1/2 didn’t have deep story. They had exposition briefings and that was it.

I haven't played WarCraft 1, but I have played 2. The briefings in the second were well done, with the right amount of seriousness. The tabletop artwork set as the backdrop to the briefing texts was a great touch, establishing a foreboding tone.

I began to play StarCraft 1 a few days ago. (First time playing it.) I'm up to Terran mission 5. The briefings with the characters is... serviceable, but could have been better, I think.

 

[ArchAngel]

You are expecting too much.

I don't expect much. Blizz writing is just insulting bad, especially for the RTS format. They write bad rpg stories or bad dating sim stories and bolt on an RTS due to contractual obligations. I've been more or less satisfied with the stories in other RTS like Command & Conquer, Red Alert, Grey Goo, Universe at War, Homeworld, Emperor: Battle for Dune, Impossible Creatures, etc. Those writers actually knew their limits when it came to writing characters, they didn't write soap operatic capeshit that shat on their own factions, and sometimes they were willing to lean into the b-movie aesthetic. I'm a lot more forgiving of writing problems if the story is deliberately silly and tongue-in-cheek.

Blizz and their rabid fanboys take themselves seriously like pretentious fuckwits, so I judge them according to the same serious criteria. I find them... wanting.

As far as stories in RTS go, Sc1+BW has the best one (in combination with the presentation).

They're a triumph of style over substance, perhaps. The presentation is nice, sure, but the scripts are brain dead garbage. People only praise it because of childhood nostalgia and because everyone on the team except the writer did their jobs. If it had released nowadays, then you would be shredding the script as garbage, just like you're shredding Stormgate. Blizzard themselves adapted the first two episodes into novels but gave up on adapting the rest because those novels didn't sell.

Do you want me to list some problems with the writing in an attempt to sway your opinion, or should I save my breath because nothing anyone can say will convince you to change your mind?

Indeed, how many other RTS stories can you actually name? How you played all that many? Did you do a critical analysis and comparison with Blizz writing to prove that Blizz is indeed the best according to your own criteria? What criteria do you use? Do you actually remember the scripts? Can you describe the plot from memory?

EDIT: On second thought, it doesn't matter. Nevermind.

What we need now isn't nostalgia for some idealized past. We need better RTS now and in the future.

That "soap operatic capeshit" is what made SC1+BW stand out from all other RTS that were just a briefing and mission. SC1 was first one that had double crosses and surprises and attempts at real emotions. The ending cinematic of BW when the admiral is writing to his his family how they failed was epic at the time when their opposition was C&C live action joke briefings.

Then Blizzard tried to copy that with WC3 but it was worse there and that world felt just like generic fantasy compared to SC world (Which at the time I didn't know was rip off of WH40k and didn't even know WH40k existed).

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think Blizzard writing pre-SC2 isn't bad as such, and it's not exactly capeshit slop either. It's just... kinda corporate, so to speak.

I wouldn't discount the production values because a lot of the more personal creativity went in there as opposed to the writing. The presentation was actually fairly inspired in all their games, from Warcraft 2 all the way to Starcraft with Diablo 1 & 2 in between. It wasn't just the music even the art, the tone etc. Only the writing had that insipid made by commitee feeling to it. Diablo had one of the best art and atmosphere in any game i've played back in the day (and we are talking about the golden age of gaming here), and Diablo 2 was very good as well, even if some of the tone of the original was lost a bit. Starcraft too had great art and atmosphere. Just compare the original with the "remaster", which, as good as people claim it is, it's still actually inferior if you do a side by side comparison. Just switch to the new and old graphics during the briefings, you'll see how much better the original portraits for the characters were and so on.

So with that in mind, the biggest sin when it comes to 2010 Blizzard and beyond isn't that the writing went from average to utter cringe. The biggest issue is that even the presentation started sucking. This was most noticable in Diablo 3, but SC2 also sucked just as much in that reguard. It wasn't as immediatly noticable only because 70% of the game is a rehash of the original, but if you do a unit by unit comparison even between what was carried over directly from the original, you'll see that Starcraft 1 just had cooler designs. Just compare the SC2 carrier to the original. While the original design has this cool reminescence of Dune or Stargate, the new version in SC2 is overdesigned generic sci-fi shit. Look at the command center of the Protoss:

Original has this mysterious Egyptian aesthetic (the above is from the remaster but the design is close enough), while SC2 is just generic space elves shit.

Sure the production values in SC2 definitely feel expensive, but it's not inspired the way the first one was.

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, one thing that makes Diablo 2 but especially Warcraft 3 feel a bit more insipid than their other games is the intrusion of left-wing politics. Funny how that goes.

 

[ghardy]

BTW, one thing that makes Diablo 2 but especially Warcraft 3 feel a bit more insipid than their other games is the intrusion of left-wing politics. Funny how that goes.

WRT WarCraft 3, the biggest thing that strikes me is the casting of the Orcish Horde as noble savages or a hitherto misunderstood culture.
WRT Diablo 2, I see (1) the Rogue Encampment; and (2) the corrupted Zakarum religion being possible issues.

What particular things did you have in mind with these games?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I want writing that doesn’t shit on the factions. I don’t mind having characters, but I don’t like badly written characters who do that. Metzen is a crappy writer who can’t write characters well, insists on making the universe revolve around them, and can’t write coherent plots either. He writes bad rpg and bad dating sim stories, then bolts on an RTS due to contractual obligations. I want stories that actually fit the genre. That treat the factions as actual organizations and not accessory superpowers.

Unfortunately, it seems Stormgate and Zerospace are doubling down on the stupid. Maybe not as bad as “The Insurgent” and “Patriot’s Blood” in BW (these missions are so bad that even most people who like BW have to admit the huge plot holes), but… maybe they’ll surprise me.

 

[ghardy]

Unfortunately, it seems Stormgate and Zerospace are doubling down on the stupid.

Is that so? I've only seen gameplay videos with pro WarCraft and StarCraft players. That's terrible if true.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Blizzard before 2008-2010 and after are two completely different companies, and Stormgate appears to be made by people from the post-2010 era. The direct comparison is SC2.