Vapourware Sui Generis + Exanima Early Access

[Contagium]

What's leaving EA first...this or Dungeon Kingdom, Sign of the Moon?

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

They should make tutorials on how to achieve these visuals in 3D, I'd pay for that and I'm probably not alone. In the end it might end up making them more money than a game as obscure as Exanima. :D

Never was about money. Sometimes smart people come to discord to suggest monetization ways, Madoc's responses are often hilarious. He also stopped reading publisher offers because they are all the same.

Good, free tutorials then? :D

 

[mediocrepoet]

What's leaving EA first...this or Dungeon Kingdom, Sign of the Moon?

Star Citizen.

 

[Technomancer]

Exanima 0.8.3f - Shop and Merchant improvements

This includes a lot of important bug fixes, but there's also some improvements to merchants that we wanted to explain.

Shop rotation speed has been increased by ~50%. This seemed like a good idea with the vastly increased number of items since this was defined and the fact that you can now choose to do up to 3 matches before the shop restocks, giving you more time to buy the items you want.

Shop items now appear as newest to oldest from top to bottom. This is so that you can quickly see which items are new, as well as which items are about to cycle out. Also the position of items does not change at all unless the shop's stock also changes. The shops felt quite confusing to navigate, hopefully this will improve that a lot.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

It appears to me these dudes could make some bank outsourcing their tech solutions. I mean, velvet quality aside the rest of the stuff sounds like impressive work.

 

[Technomancer]

ERYFKRAD here, your damn quotes.

Spoiler

 

[ERYFKRAD]

ERYFKRAD here, your damn quotes.

Spoiler

Goddamn

 

[Alienman]

Suffering for his art. I like this guy.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

While I have definitely criticized these guys for their priorities, I haven't accused them of juicing EA for money. It should be obvious to everyone that this thing is a money pit. What annoys me (and others), is that he confuses his OCD with conceptual purity. He had enough to make an awesome game 5 years ago. Would it have been his opus? No quite. His fidelity to velvet simulation wasn't quite there yet. A completed game would have given him the resources necessary to create a team where he could have a whole person dedicated to velvet simulation for the sequel! I'm a project manager. I have to do this sort of calculus every day. I admire his passion and share his vision, but I'd rather see it created than see him suffer for it. The time he has spent obsessing over minutiae isn't a manifestation of conceptual purity, it's foolishness. This guy is like Tim Schafer. Creative powerhouse with an inability to cross the finish line because of poor prioritization. Sui Generis is an incredible idea, and he's gotten it close enough to make it real. He just needs to get his shit together and accept there are better ways to accomplish goals than martyrdom.

 

[mediocrepoet]

While I have definitely criticized these guys for their priorities, I haven't accused them of juicing EA for money. It should be obvious to everyone that this thing is a money pit. What annoys me (and others), is that he confuses his OCD with conceptual purity. He had enough to make an awesome game 5 years ago. Would it have been his opus? No quite. His fidelity to velvet simulation wasn't quite there yet. A completed game would have given him the resources necessary to create a team where he could have a whole person dedicated to velvet simulation for the sequel! I'm a project manager. I have to do this sort of calculus every day. I admire his passion and share his vision, but I'd rather see it created than see him suffer for it. The time he has spent obsessing over minutiae isn't a manifestation of conceptual purity, it's foolishness. This guy is like Tim Schafer. Creative powerhouse with an inability to cross the finish line because of poor prioritization. Sui Generis is an incredible idea, and he's gotten it close enough to make it real. He just needs to get his shit together and accept there are better ways to accomplish goals than martyrdom.

You hit the nail on the head. It's better to have a completed project that has even say 70% of your ideas and vision where you can refine your ideas, collect more resources and try to make the next one closer to 100% than to have a neverending incomplete project that eventually dies, whether because you do, or due to fatigue.

I will say that I'm impressed that the guy still has a clear vision and dedication to the project though. That's exhausting.

 

[Technomancer]

A completed game would have given him the resources necessary to create a team where he could have a whole person dedicated to velvet simulation for the sequel!

Not really. He said that extra money would make no difference in development speed because he can't manage even more people. They really don't care about releasing it on some random arbitrary date. It's done when it's done because they make the game without compromising their goals. Players can wait and they can play something else. Devs will do their own thing, in their own way.

He had enough to make an awesome game 5 years ago

We already talked about it. The scope of the game changed. But it changed because of original players. People who stuck around after Kickstarter picked everything apart, and everything had to be better. So it did.

 

[Yaar Podshipnik]

I call bullshit on the following:

Based on:

Proof is from Companies House, https://find-and-update.company-inf...ExN2FkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0. It's UK government official stuff, if you lie to them, you're in trouble.

So between 2019 and 2020 they got +200k in total assets. Maybe that's how they value the tech, maybe it's cash they have. If it's cash from sale of the game, then it's hardly "initial".

Keep in mind, that those statements aren't of the same quality is big companies have to publish, i.e. there's no requirement to publish how much was spent on employee compensation.

Don't take this post wrong way, I love Exanima, and the very detailed approach to creating it. I would just take any whining about the money with a grain of salt.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I call bullshit on the following:
View attachment 22116
View attachment 22117
Based on:
View attachment 22118

Proof is from Companies House, https://find-and-update.company-inf...ExN2FkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0. It's UK government official stuff, if you lie to them, you're in trouble.

So between 2019 and 2020 they got +200k in total assets. Maybe that's how they value the tech, maybe it's cash they have. If it's cash from sale of the game, then it's hardly "initial".

Keep in mind, that those statements aren't of the same quality is big companies have to publish, i.e. there's no requirement to publish how much was spent on employee compensation.

Don't take this post wrong way, I love Exanima, and the very detailed approach to creating it. I would just take any whining about the money with a grain of salt.

I doubt it's the tech since it's all current assets, even though the statements are unaudited. It could be cash, but it's not necessarily cash from sales - it could be investment cash which would still show up as net assets. What I find interesting out of this is that they have current liabilities, but apparently no long term liabilities in the corporate structure. It makes me wonder if there are shareholder loans off the books that result in contributions to the company with the shareholders not specifying a repayment schedule inside the company, but instead taking amounts as due as the private loans are due.

Just speculating, mind you. There's really not a lot in this report.

 

[Lithium Flower]

A completed game would have given him the resources necessary to create a team where he could have a whole person dedicated to velvet simulation for the sequel!

He said that extra money would make no difference in development speed because he can't manage even more people.

Yeah but he's fucking wrong. That statement tells me everything I need to know.

This is a classic problem with talented people who see their work as a passion projects and not as a business designed to accomplish a specific goal. The solution to having too many people to manage is delegating, delegating, delegating (which require extra people, training, managers - in short, money) and it seems like Madoc is probably the kind of person who uselessly micromanages every single part of the project and will not let the situation get better. Don't just take everything the mad scientists tells you at face value you lovable simp.

That being said, while I also chuckle at the occasional absurdity of Exanima's patch notes, I don't think the project is mismanaged to the degree of, say, Bannerlord, or most other games stuck in EA limbo. The speed of development is glacial, but every update is substantive, and their most recent attempt at roadmap suggests they've scaled down their goals (2 schools of thaumatury total and, what, 3 more levels - pretty sure they had more planned, could be wrong, Technomemer would know better) to be able to push out 1.0 in the next few years.

Thaaaaat being said, Sui Generis is not going to be completed no matter how much copium fanboys are going to take. I'm sorry, but if Madoc is right and making these games is a certain money sink, then a project like Sui Generis is just not doable within a single person's lifespan when you account for the many years of dosh accumulation necessary to sustain it. And if Madoc is wrong, then he is just a terrible project manager oblivious to basic facts of gamedev that even most laymen understand, and we reach the same conclusion.

However, I do see Exanima reaching a full release and hopefully post-release support - and honestly that's good enough for me.

 

[Matador]

I'm sorry, but Madoc digged his own hole. He wanted to include absolutely everything he wanted in the game, and that's not realistic with their resources.

He procrastinated doing brilliant authistic stuff instead of building the game he promoted in Kickstarter. That is not the fault of evil publishers.

I don't feel entitled to anything and I'm glad I backed the project, but he is self deceiving.

Two weeks ago I played Blasphemous, a successful Kickstarter game, and watched an interview with the director who clearly had a grounded vision of what they could achieve although he had more things in mind. And the result was delivering a very good and successful game.

Had he burnt money and time to perfect blood physics and other minor details, they would have built nothing, destroyed the company and put their people in jeopardy.

You never compromise with evil, but you have to do with reality and material constraints if you want to achieve anything.

 

[Technomancer]

"initial"

I do think that by initial he meant the initial sale of the game (as a point to the guy who said they delay it on purpose to earn more that way...somehow). Since they sell it much cheaper because of early access all people who play on steam right now paid discounted price. Once the game is complete and pricing is increased all who bought it before won't pay extra naturally but still will get full value. As for cooking the numbers dunno, but they are registered in Italy and the studio is located there too, not in UK.

Sui Generis is not going to be completed no matter how much copium fanboys are going to take. I'm sorry, but if Madoc is right and making these games is a certain money sink, then a project like Sui Generis is just not doable within a single person's lifespan when you account for the many years of dosh accumulation necessary to sustain it.

It will take forever but I fully expect to see the game one day and play early builds in the coming years. Once multiplayer is in for Exanima and the game is feature-complete - it will explode. So their money problem will go away.

I'm sorry, but Madoc digged his own hole.

He didn't though? You say it like they are closing down. Game is successful, there is a passionate community, modding emerging and madoc said corona was kind to them (people sit at home and play more games) so they float some cash right now. Things are good, 1.0 is closer than ever.

You guys are too harsh on the devs. All those mismanaged, could've beens and should have are just speculations. Mismanaged is mechajammer. These devs narrowed down their design goals and relentlessly pursuit them however long that takes. You are seeing something unique here, stuff that is rarely attempted if ever. And unique things are done in unique ways. Like madoc likes to say himself "its not some unity game". It's an extremely ambitious project made from zero. Custom high tech engine that runs on potatoes and looks excellent, unique physics system that simulates muscles and offers you impactful gameplay, all while having insane quality of assets (97% are made in-house, not bought). Cut them some slack. I'm sure the game could've been released ages ago but I'm glad it didn't. I'll take that sort of "mismanaged" any day.

 

[Matador]

I'm not harsh, I respect his talent and integrity. I just say that he would be in a better position with a finished product if he had a good and realistic planning focused in the important stuff, like other teams that completed projects and didn't corrupted themselves, Blasphemous team being a good example. Those guys released free content while they expanded releasing their game to other platforms, selling a lot of copies for an indie game in a niche genre like metroidvania.

I'm rooting for Bare Mettle guys, so I just would like that they were better planning and priorizing their tasks to really succeed. Defending all they do is not helping them. And you can feel the pain reading the Madoc's messages you posted.

 

[Technomancer]

I just say that he would be in a better position with a finished product if he had a good and realistic planning focused in the important stuff, like other teams that completed projects and didn't corrupted themselves, Blasphemous team being a good example.

Blasphemous is that 2D game? Is that a good comparison? What do those games have in similarity but the most obvious things like general development process? I think you underestimate the profound effect of technology Bare Mettle uses. The physics aspect which is the core of the design is extremely complex. They went with it because Madoc had expertise and talent to support it and the team had desire to make a very physical realistic game. There were no easy or cheap solutions for some fresh devs. After Kickstarter it took nearly 3 years of development to nail the combat system alone and lose that prototype jank animations feel (drunken combat). And for many years other devs could only afford to work on the game part-time. It is easy to backseat develop and offer advice in hindsight, but we don't know their situation. From what I saw, I believe they did the best they could.

I'm rooting for Bare Mettle guys, so I just would like that they were better planning and priorizing their tasks to really succeed. Defending all they do is not helping them. And you can feel the pain reading the Madoc's messages you posted.

I do not think they need help. Only render engine rebuild was unplanned. Otherwise, they follow internal roadmap and implement things in order, prioritizing their tasks. As for the pain, it comes from feeling frustrated over people who come with nothing but hate in their words oblivious to sacrifices and struggles they endure for their passion. Madoc practically never complains, but he despises idiots. What I showed was likely a case of a bad day becoming worse.

 

[Yaar Podshipnik]

As for cooking the numbers dunno, but they are registered in Italy and the studio is located there too, not in UK.
Not saying they're cooking anything, just that the dire situation they talk about is not necessarily true.

Does Italy have their version of Companies House? And what do you mean the studio is located in Italy, not UK? Why have an UK business then, with so much assets?

 

[BruceVC]

I have Exanima on Steam and it was one those impulsive Steam\GOG purchases where I just buy a game without doing proper research. And normally I am not disappointed when I make these occasional rushed buys ....except for Underworld: Ascendant but I think many of us got fooled by that scam so I dont feel that bad

I havent played it yet because I was waiting for the release of Sui Generis because I prefer games that have a future and will be supported properly. So I hope it is released ?

 

[Technomancer]

Yaar Podshipnik I really don't know that many details because I'm more interested in 3D and this is not a topic that is often discussed. I know that Madoc relocated to Italy, Sienna and that is where he works from (even before gamedev). Some devs too. I think others went back home and work remotely. Zetheros the 3D modeler was always remote.

Their money situation might be changing thanks to corona but I guess madoc is still not used to it so speaks more from their previous years of experience. In recent times there were some new exanima videos from youtubers though, that boosted sales for sure.

 

[Yaar Podshipnik]

Does Italy have their version of Companies House?

Why yes, yes it does. Thanks to the lovely https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/overseas-registries/overseas-registries, and for some reason via https://www.infocamere.it/en/home we get to paywalled info on Bare Mettle.

As I am genuinely curious, I've bothered registering and paying the exorbitant amount of 5EUR for it. Given that the access to the document costs money, I'll refrain from posting large parts of it.

The italian office is just a branch of the UK company, and is marked as inactive. It lists 0 employees and Brendan Hucker is the only representative registered. It also lists the current address, I'm not posting it. It is in Siena, as TechnoMancer said.

I don't know if Italian business registry would have any more info for active companies. I'm betting on yes, given that the both Polish and Bulgarian registries include similar financial info to the one in UK. Based on that, I conclude that all economic activity, assets, etc., are under umbrella of the UK company, and will be reflected in reports to Companies House.


And again, I want to mention that I do believe Exanima will be finished one day. There's a steady, if a bit slow, progress. New stuff is actually cool and useful (as opposed to SC for example). I have a some doubts about Sui Generis being in a playable state before I go senile and forget that I wanted to play it. However, BM team is doing great work, really want them to succeed. Just don't want to believe about any whines about money, when they seem to be doing ok.

 

[Technomancer]

don't want to believe about any whines about money, when they seem to be doing ok

Do notice that first part of messages was said almost two years ago.

 

[Aemar]

This is a classic problem with talented people who see their work as a passion projects and not as a business designed to accomplish a specific goal.

Pretty much. Having a more business-minded approach would have allowed them to better manage their resources and downsize their initial promises to some lower expectations. Always start small when you're a small company at the beginning of your journey. At least they've already managed to deliver more than the Realms Beyond folks.

 

[getter77]

What's leaving EA first...this or Dungeon Kingdom, Sign of the Moon?

Based on the latest updates, it legit seems likely that both Dungeon Kingdom and even Arakion will essentially Get There within perhaps Q1-Q2 2022 after all this time.