Super Serious Scientific Analysis and Critique of BG2:SoA

[Xeon]

That's not the only motivation to go after Sarevok tho, Sarevok sends assassins after you throughout[?] the game.

 

[NotAGolfer]

These narrated story sequences in between chapters that feel a bit like entries in a diary that you get in BG1 are well done imo.
And for me they did a good job to pull me into the story, but I also liked the whole political intrigue stuff with the iron crisis.
BG2 was more generic high fantasy but it had by far the better encounter design (kobolds in BG1 and very low level AD&D gameplay didn't do it for me) and I didn't really mind the cheesy story because Irenicus was a well done moustache twirling villain and I really liked Bodhi too. They were both not as one-dimensional as I'm used to from game antagonists.
The character progression was also more fun in BG2, you were constantly facing seemingly insurmountable odds which then became easy to beat after a few level ups. Kept me on my toes.

 

[Mark Richard]

Same with the story, it just felt bland and boring to me in BG1. There are interesting elements but overall it's just meh. I never cared about any of the characters. BG2, on the other hand, was much more engaging: the antagonist directly hurts you in the beginning so it's personal (Sarevok kills your mentor whom you actually meet in-game for a 10 minute prologue... ok, I don't give a fuck), and all the faction quests are directly relevant to your goal of getting revenge on Irenicus. Factions are also much more interesting, there's the whole shadow war thing, and the area BG2 is set in is inherently more interesting than the area BG1 is set in.

Also Serevok is only seen twice in the game - once at the beginning and once at the end. His big plan is to create an iron crisis and monopolise the market, then use that power to make a play for the throne. One wonders why the game needs to be set in Forgotten Realms at all, in some ways its a very dry fantasy story. The trade federation forming a blockade around Naboo had more fantasy than this.

That's not why Sarevok wanted to engineer a war. Because Bhaal's portfolio is 'murder', Sarevok thought he could use the mass bloodshed resulting from the war as a ritualistic act to become the new Bhaal. This is made quite clear in the game.

But the methods he uses to achieve it are grounded and mundane. Even if Serevok beats the player, ascends the throne, and starts a war, there's no guarantees. Rather than complete the plan he'll merely have initiated the next phase which could take decades to bear fruit. He was never in reach of godhood within the game itself.

 

[Incantatar]

There are a handful of people who know the IE games to their bytes. 1. Lilura isn't one of them. 2. None are so full of themselves.
Perhaps get of the yayo and stop acting like you are the authority for anything?

BG2: That game and Gothic 1 are the two crpgs that really grip me with their atmosphere. The strange world, the soundtrack, the mysteries and the npcs are creating something great. I don't think it's something that can be analyzed imo, for me it's art.
The second thing is I fucking love older D&D with all it's quirks and stupitites. Those old modules and many OSR ones just speak to my imagination. Read the reviews of Bryce0lynch or Melan if you want know what I mean. Yeah, the FR is hated but I like the early versions.

This is pretty subjective because I don't think truly great media can be methodically explained entirely. I watch a Bergman or Powell & Pressburger movie in absolute awe for its length. Another falls asleep or thinks it's drivel. Who is right?
The craft can be studied and applied but you might still end up creating something that people don't connect to.

 

[Sykar]

you're welcome. and i don't read blogs. it just never caught on in my world.

One of the best things about having a good blog is: thousands of people read my monocled opinions on RPGs every week, whereas only hundreds of people will read your shitposts before this thread gets buried and forgotten.

You are really full of yourself. Full of shit especially.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Sup bros, I was in Germoney whole day, what's going on in my threa-...

...

I just wanted to talk about Shadows of Amn.

 

[Neanderthal]

NPCs lack schedules or any kind on interesting personal life.

Never found that an issue. And later games like Oblivion and Skyrim boast these schedules, but these schedules bring nothing to the table.
In vtmb the prince doesn't go take a shit etc, but is that an issue? Now imagine running around the city trying to find him, cause he walks around doing god knows what. Would that be fun?

Standing NPCs is the way to go. They can walk around their room, but I draw the line there.

Not only that but he's lying as well, you go in certain places at certain times in BG1 and there's different stuff happening, shopkeepers aren't there, bedrooms have people sleeping in them at night etc. Funny thing is, I agree with you, it's more irritating that anything. Want to sell-up, res-stock and move out at 01:00am? Tough shit, might as well rest again for no other reason than that's all you can do.

Sorry lads gotta disagree wi both o you: NPCs should be easy to find by knowing who they are and what they do, work days, sleep nights, eat at mealtimes, socialise or go to churxh later on etc. Except when they don't want to be found, this can add some serious roleplaying opportunities rather than just waiting around for character all time. Games are too much centred on PC. Its not that difficult to find somebody in a well simulated world.

If a game has only a choice of resting when you can't recycle crap then its time to look at how shallow an uninteresting the gameworld is. An lootwhoring is fucking way over emphasised in games.

 

[Jason Liang]

What is this BG2: SOA? I think you must mean Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition!

BG2:EE PROS
1. Classic beloved Companions like Minsc, Edwin, Aerie, Dorn, Mazzy and Jan.
2. Irenicus - a villain that you want to murder - incentive to beat the game
3. Lots of fun things to murder like Shadow Dragons and Wizards
4. Lots of lewt everywhere that help you murder shit, like Crimson Fury and Carsomyr
5. Fast character progress - xp for unlocking doors and reading scrolls! cool
6. The only game to ever make RTwP enjoyable, if not actually strategic. See NWN, Arcanum and Pillars for examples of how shitty RTwP usually turns out
7. Lots of different classes mostly well implemented
8. Highly developed magic system
9. Moderately developed rogue system
10. The epitome of an "adventure" rpg full of memorable encounters, battles, places and characters

BG2:EE CONS
1. RTwP - but still better than either crap TB (Fallout) or crap RTwP (Arcanum)

*RTwP does solve the classic RPG conundrum of how to make pure fighters playable

 

[abnaxus]

That time when Bioware traced over Penthouse models rather than tumblr whales

Spoiler

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

NPCs lack schedules or any kind on interesting personal life.

Never found that an issue. And later games like Oblivion and Skyrim boast these schedules, but these schedules bring nothing to the table.
In vtmb the prince doesn't go take a shit etc, but is that an issue? Now imagine running around the city trying to find him, cause he walks around doing god knows what. Would that be fun?

Standing NPCs is the way to go. They can walk around their room, but I draw the line there.

Not only that but he's lying as well, you go in certain places at certain times in BG1 and there's different stuff happening, shopkeepers aren't there, bedrooms have people sleeping in them at night etc. Funny thing is, I agree with you, it's more irritating that anything. Want to sell-up, res-stock and move out at 01:00am? Tough shit, might as well rest again for no other reason than that's all you can do.

Sorry lads gotta disagree wi both o you: NPCs should be easy to find by knowing who they are and what they do, work days, sleep nights, eat at mealtimes, socialise or go to churxh later on etc. Except when they don't want to be found, this can add some serious roleplaying opportunities rather than just waiting around for character all time. Games are too much centred on PC. Its not that difficult to find somebody in a well simulated world.

If a game has only a choice of resting when you can't recycle crap then its time to look at how shallow an uninteresting the gameworld is.

And, as per usual, you seem to be confusing the SIM category of 'gaming' with people who play Computer Role Playing Games. More to the point, you seem to consider all these points as somehow enhancing your fantasy experience, when, in reality, they are all haemorrhaging the fantasy by dragging everything back to some relative of reality even more so than just having basic familiarity comforts. Instead of trying to turn someone else's genre into the SIM genre, why aren't you on a SIM forum moaning about why your SIMs aren't more SIM-like? You're whole mindset on RPGs is an absurdity.

 

[Incantatar]

6. The only game to ever make RTwP enjoyable, if not actually strategic.

Have you played SCS? It might not be vanilla, but it certainly should be vanilla. This makes the game very strategic. There is also Improved Anvil for the autistic chess players.
The game is played as a literal TB game by elite players. It just has a learning curve to pull it off in that system.

 

[Jason Liang]

In summary

Why is BG2: EE considered one of the greatest classic PC RPGs of all time.???

1. It has better combat than most of its peers, most of which were made by Black Isle or Troika so therefore they have crap combat (Fallout, Fallout 2, NWN, Bloodlines, PST: EE, Arcanum)
2. It has better everything else than the one game that has better combat than it- ToEE
3. It is a lot longer than the RPG closest to it as a complete package - SR: Dragonfall DC. Length matters

 

[Neanderthal]

NPCs lack schedules or any kind on interesting personal life.

Never found that an issue. And later games like Oblivion and Skyrim boast these schedules, but these schedules bring nothing to the table.
In vtmb the prince doesn't go take a shit etc, but is that an issue? Now imagine running around the city trying to find him, cause he walks around doing god knows what. Would that be fun?

Standing NPCs is the way to go. They can walk around their room, but I draw the line there.

Not only that but he's lying as well, you go in certain places at certain times in BG1 and there's different stuff happening, shopkeepers aren't there, bedrooms have people sleeping in them at night etc. Funny thing is, I agree with you, it's more irritating that anything. Want to sell-up, res-stock and move out at 01:00am? Tough shit, might as well rest again for no other reason than that's all you can do.

Sorry lads gotta disagree wi both o you: NPCs should be easy to find by knowing who they are and what they do, work days, sleep nights, eat at mealtimes, socialise or go to churxh later on etc. Except when they don't want to be found, this can add some serious roleplaying opportunities rather than just waiting around for character all time. Games are too much centred on PC. Its not that difficult to find somebody in a well simulated world.

If a game has only a choice of resting when you can't recycle crap then its time to look at how shallow an uninteresting the gameworld is.

And, as per usual, you seem to be confusing the SIM category of 'gaming' with people who play Computer Role Playing Games. More to the point, you seem to consider all these points as somehow enhancing your fantasy experience, when, in reality, they are all haemorrhaging the fantasy by dragging everything back to some relative of reality even more so than just having basic familiarity comforts. Instead of trying to turn someone else's genre into the SIM genre, why aren't you on a SIM forum moaning about why your SIMs aren't more SIM-like? You're whole mindset on RPGs is an absurdity.

Never played sims mate so wouldn't know, just don't think that RPGs should be limited to usual conversation, combat an collectin crap. RPGs can be a lot fucking more.

 

[Jason Liang]

6. The only game to ever make RTwP enjoyable, if not actually strategic.

Have you played SCS? It might not be vanilla, but it certainly should be vanilla. This makes the game very strategic. There is also Improved Anvil for the autistic chess players.
The game is played as a literal TB game by elite players. It just has a learning curve to pull it off in that system.

Sorry, SCS makes BG2:EE more difficult but it does not actually make the game strategic. Just because you have to now use consumables doesn't mean it's actually strategic, sorry. In fact, consumables make games less strategic, not more strategic.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

NPCs lack schedules or any kind on interesting personal life.

Never found that an issue. And later games like Oblivion and Skyrim boast these schedules, but these schedules bring nothing to the table.
In vtmb the prince doesn't go take a shit etc, but is that an issue? Now imagine running around the city trying to find him, cause he walks around doing god knows what. Would that be fun?

Standing NPCs is the way to go. They can walk around their room, but I draw the line there.

Not only that but he's lying as well, you go in certain places at certain times in BG1 and there's different stuff happening, shopkeepers aren't there, bedrooms have people sleeping in them at night etc. Funny thing is, I agree with you, it's more irritating that anything. Want to sell-up, res-stock and move out at 01:00am? Tough shit, might as well rest again for no other reason than that's all you can do.

Sorry lads gotta disagree wi both o you: NPCs should be easy to find by knowing who they are and what they do, work days, sleep nights, eat at mealtimes, socialise or go to churxh later on etc. Except when they don't want to be found, this can add some serious roleplaying opportunities rather than just waiting around for character all time. Games are too much centred on PC. Its not that difficult to find somebody in a well simulated world.

If a game has only a choice of resting when you can't recycle crap then its time to look at how shallow an uninteresting the gameworld is.

And, as per usual, you seem to be confusing the SIM category of 'gaming' with people who play Computer Role Playing Games. More to the point, you seem to consider all these points as somehow enhancing your fantasy experience, when, in reality, they are all haemorrhaging the fantasy by dragging everything back to some relative of reality even more so than just having basic familiarity comforts. Instead of trying to turn someone else's genre into the SIM genre, why aren't you on a SIM forum moaning about why your SIMs aren't more SIM-like? You're whole mindset on RPGs is an absurdity.

Never played sims mate so wouldn't know, just don't think that RPGs should be limited to usual conversation, combat an collectin crap. RPGs can be a lot fucking more.

If you think all RPGs have to offer is "usual conversation, combat 'an' 'collectin' and that you think that is in itself crap then what the 'ef' are you even doing in an RPG forum?

Which games from the entirety of cRPGs even come close to providing what you desire, what games gave you that false expectation in the first place?

 

[Neanderthal]

RPGs.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

RPGs.

Yer talkin Bollocks mayt.

 

[octavius]

Why is BG2: EE considered one of the greatest classic PC RPGs of all time.???

Since when did the EE become "classic"?
BG2: SoA is the classic.

It's like saying Britney Spears' "I Love Rock&Roll" is a classic.

The only game to ever make RTwP enjoyable, if not actually strategic.

You probably mean tactical.

 

[Lilura]

consumables make games less strategic, not more strategic.

 

[Reapa]

What is this BG2: SOA? I think you must mean Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition!

BG2:EE PROS
1. Classic beloved Companions like Minsc, Edwin, Aerie, Dorn, Mazzy and Jan.
2. Irenicus - a villain that you want to murder - incentive to beat the game
3. Lots of fun things to murder like Shadow Dragons and Wizards
4. Lots of lewt everywhere that help you murder shit, like Crimson Fury and Carsomyr
5. Fast character progress - xp for unlocking doors and reading scrolls! cool
6. The only game to ever make RTwP enjoyable, if not actually strategic. See NWN, Arcanum and Pillars for examples of how shitty RTwP usually turns out
7. Lots of different classes mostly well implemented
8. Highly developed magic system
9. Moderately developed rogue system
10. The epitome of an "adventure" rpg full of memorable encounters, battles, places and characters

BG2:EE CONS
1. RTwP - but still better than either crap TB (Fallout) or crap RTwP (Arcanum)

*RTwP does solve the classic RPG conundrum of how to make pure fighters playable

arcanum did not have rtwp combat, you heretic! it was either real time or turn based depending on the settings you chose.

 

[Jason Liang]

Why is BG2: EE considered one of the greatest classic PC RPGs of all time.???

Since when did the EE become "classic"?
BG2: SoA is the classic.

It's like saying Britney Spears' "I Love Rock&Roll" is a classic.

rewind

creed

The only game to ever make RTwP enjoyable, if not actually strategic.

You probably mean tactical.

Yes but I didn't want to confuse the issue by being too technical:D Happy you still remembered though.

arcanum did not have rtwp combat, you heretic! it was either real time

WITH PAUSING

 

[Iznaliu]

That time when Bioware traced over Penthouse models rather than tumblr whales

That is just a different kind of shit, to be honest. The IE games' visual style, while kind of cool, is also too over-the-top (except for PS:T)

 

[Reapa]

Why is BG2: EE considered one of the greatest classic PC RPGs of all time.???

Since when did the EE become "classic"?
BG2: SoA is the classic.

It's like saying Britney Spears' "I Love Rock&Roll" is a classic.

rewind

creed

The only game to ever make RTwP enjoyable, if not actually strategic.

You probably mean tactical.

Yes but I didn't want to confuse the issue by being too technical:D Happy you still remembered though.

arcanum did not have rtwp combat, you heretic! it was either real time

WITH PAUSING

this is beyond retarded. arcanum had no combat pause. i just installed it to double check. then i looked up the hotkeys.
http://arcanum.wikia.com/wiki/Hotkeys
there's no pause, you utter moron.

 

[Cael]

I actually have problems with both BG1 and BG2 in terms of motivations and plotlines, to be honest.

In BG1, there is basically no real reason why you would go to Nashkel to investigate the mines other than your companions asking you to do it. For the bad guys (Xzar and Monty), they were sent there to investigate and wanted to drag you along as dumb muscle. OK, fair enough, IF you had nothing better to do, which you did. For the good guys (Jaheira and Khalid), it was basically "let's go to Nashkel, and looking into the troubles there while waiting for your nemesis to strike again." What a GREAT idea! You have survived 3 assassination attempts, so let's go parade around and hope for a fourth! That will show the bad guys! That it worked was basically author fiat.

In BG2, the whole Irenicus thing is stupid. When he got your soul, he was crowing about how you would wither and die and that you will feel it soon. And yet, HE was in the same situation for YEARS, long before he even heard about you and your "special" soul. To add insult to injury, why would he go after YOU, who is famous for singlehandedly sorting out every mess on the Sword Coast in the space of a few months, something that not even the entire Flaming Fisks (spelling intentional) could do in a year, instead of some OTHER, less powerful Bhaalspawn who has the same bit of divinity in them? There is Evil Overlord syndrome, and there is Evil Overdumbass F-tard syndrome, and Irenicus is so far into the latter, we might as well call him a SJW. And his motivations are pretty moronic to begin with (oh, the Queen rejected me, so I will do Evululz things to get her hand; how dare she punish me, I will destroy everything she holds dear!), but pretty standard fare for badly written fanfic a la Saerileth.

In both cases, there were other things that redeem the game, but let's not kid ourselves about how well the plot and motivations were written.

In BG1, it was the side quests and the open sandboxy feel of the game. There were lots to do and explore to the point the main plot is more a side plot. The level cap was a spectacular distraction from this, however, which is something that Fallout 2 did in a superior manner (there is a level cap, but it was so high it might as well not exist). Still, for its time, it was a relevation to anyone who has not played Ultima 7. And the character portraits were well done, better in many ways than BG2 (with the sole exception of Viconia, but that was because the BG1 pic was just absolutely horrendous, easily the worst of the lot).

In BG2, it was the companion interaction and their characterisation. There is never a game where I did not sentence Anomen to death by bees for being the arrogant son of a rat's arse that he is. He WILL fall, and he WILL be stung to death. F-you, asshole. Die and be reviled. That kind of visceral hate for a character without the character actually being an out and out Evululz kind of guy speaks well of the writer of that character (similarly, I can never pass up the chance to let Loghain live in Dragon Age just to give the middle finger to the whiny bitch that is Alistair; you are a Grey Warden, who's creed is to do ANYTHING to fight darkspawn and the blight and you insist on indulging in your whiny, petty revenge? Get f-ed!).

 

[Average Manatee]

Meanwhile in PoE:

A legendary sword scattered inside a megadungeon. Blade of the Endless Paths. I've replaced it with an enchanted noname sword within an hour. There's nothing unique or memorable about it, except the disappointment.

You can't have a good cRPGS without interesting loot. The laws of dungeon crawling demand satisfying rewards. It's science.

One thing that definitely stuck out to me with PoE almost immediately: Weapon stats came first, then you didn't give a shit about reading the flavor text. In BG2 etc your eyes glanced over something that sounded cool while scrolling down to the stats, then you went back and read it.

EDIT: I see this thread has devolved to comparing BG2 to BG1 and other games like Fallout. Can we please get back to making the thread about PoE?