Teh irony! (Dave Gaider on RPGs)

[DarkSign]

Sounds like the new definition of an RPG/cRPG is: a game where the user shapes a character through both statistics and decisions, which in turn have an effect on the gameworld, allowing the user to play through and create a role or character arc for the character.

Or am I off base?

 

[Atrokkus]

It wasn't difficult. Thieves = lesser of the two evils. Vampires = bigger of the two evils. Unless people disregarded all the foreshadowing on (and by) both guilds, there was no way to not take a hint on what each guild meant or would possibly lead to.

But still, it was made in such a manner that I actually got excited about whole thing, thinking about their motives etc etc. Of course, I suspected the connection between Irenicus and Bodhi, but it wasn't clear as day. Foreshadowing? Yes, but still you wouldn't say for sure what exactly awaited you in the future, would you? Intrque was there, and that's a very great story element, that, along with albeit illusionary choice, forms a great RPG element.

You only become aware of it when you replay and take the other choice, but this has no impact on being an illusion

It's all in *IMPRESSION*.
Tricks in circus are illusions, but they impress people (if done right). That's what's important.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

But still, it was made in such a manner that I actually got excited about whole thing, thinking about their motives etc etc.

Which doesn't really justify it being a hard choice or not.

It's all in *IMPRESSION*.
Tricks in circus are illusions, but they impress people (if done right). That's what's important.

I'm not arguing if they impress people or not. I'm saying they are tricks regardless if people are aware of it or not, or wheter they have seen it before or not. Try keeping up to date on what's being discussed.

 

[Volourn]

BIO RPGs have lots of real choices. Comparing them to FFRPGs is just plain retarded. Only idiots like the Codex would LIE otherwise.

That is all.

kthnxseeyoufeedbacktm.

 

[DarkSign]

So what about my new definition?

the new definition of an RPG/cRPG is: a game where the user shapes a character through both statistics and decisions, which in turn have an effect on the gameworld, allowing the user to play through and create a role or character arc for the character.

 

[Sarvis]

So what about my new definition?

Well it's automatically wrong since you seem to think there needs to be a NEW definition of the word.

which in turn have an effect on the gameworld, allowing the user to play through and create a role or character arc for the character.

The question you need to ask yourself, or well... answer since I'm asking you I guess, is:

"Can these things be done in an action game, and if so should a fast paced action game like God of War really be considered an RPG?"

 

[RuySan]

Japanese RPG's zenith was with the first Phantasy Star for the sega master system.

 

[DarkSign]

Well it's automatically wrong since you seem to think there needs to be a NEW definition of the word.

The question you need to ask yourself, or well... answer since I'm asking you I guess, is:

"Can these things be done in an action game, and if so should a fast paced action game like God of War really be considered an RPG?"

@first point: Well since no one ever could agree on and old one, ive tried to integrate the opinions of everyone here so that we could hold games up to a definable standard. I see why you have your title.

@ second point: perhaps I need to clarify. The character arc in an RPG is decided by the player. The character arc in an action game is decided by the developers.

The difference between action and rpg then would be the total amount of control you have over your character's story arc and personal development. Fallout you would have a HIGH level of control over story arc and who he became. In God of War you really dont get to choose much about where he goes and what he does.

Take for example GTA:SA. I might argue that this IS an RPG because of all the possible activities and actions available for you to do. You even get to boost his stats (though you dont see them) through working out and eating if I recall correctly.


So lets set up a test:
1. can you adjust/affect/control the character's bodily stats?
2. can you adjust/affect/control the character's skillset?
3. are YOU able to choose where the character goes or does the developer?
4 did it matter to the gameworld what choices and what actions your character took?
5. was character to character interaction (other than fighting) important or a sideline?
6. could you reasonably write a story based on the character's actions from start to finish?

If you have all six of those you've got an RPG of the first order.
If you answered no to #3 or #4, then you dont.

Sound about right?

 

[Sarvis]

@first point: Well since no one ever could agree on and old one, ive tried to integrate the opinions of everyone here so that we could hold games up to a definable standard. I see why you have your title.

If being belligerant and unreasonable qualifies as an opinion I don't really see the point.

Stop trying to redefine something when the definition is largely accepted by everyone EXCEPT 12 or so people at RPGCodex.

Sound about right?

Under your system there are two genres, Action and RPG, or more appropriately "What I like" and "What I don't like." Worse yet, as gaming advances there will be fewer and fewer games fitting the Action category, because as you are seeing with GTA there is movement towards allowing that kind of character freedom in ALL genres of games.

Look at it this way, in the past the most obvious defining feature of RPGs was storyline. If you had dialog, and a plot beyond killing aliens and rescuing the princess it was a safe bet that the game was an RPG. But look at what we have these days, with a game like Advent Rising. It has a pretty strong plot, it has that story and much time is spent in dialog through cutscenes.

If someone had naievly defined RPGs as "Games which have a strong story" then Advent Rising would be a CRPG under that definition today.

You are making exactly that mistake with your definition. What if God of War wasn't linear? What if you could affect the ending, choose your role in the story, create your own story arc? Would the intense action in the game be somehow lessened? Would anyone but you consider it an RPG?

What if someone took Fallout, took all it's dialog and events but got rid of the stats and skills so that you could play Fallout as an FPS? Would it still be an RPG? It would be the same plot, you'd have the same options for defining your characters role... for, shall I say, roleplaying... but it would be a different game right?

You have to look at <b>gameplay</b> to define a game's genre.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

BIO RPGs have lots of real choices.

True... If you go by all the distinct dialogue choices that lead, in turn, to other distinct dialogue choices. But that's neither all the kinds of choices there are, and there's ample evidence brought up time and again that confirms most of the time, it's either false or of circular nature (ie, KoTOR's dialogue loop).

Comparing them to FFRPGs is just plain retarded.

Take it up to whoever compared them in the first place.

While I don't care much for the comparison itself, if you have played some Final Fantasies you can't deny there are instances where both games produce choices of various kinds: your "real" choices, illusionary choices and multiple choices that are either real or false (under the context of what's being discussed).

Only idiots like the Codex would LIE otherwise.

Who's this Codex fellow?

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Look at it this way, in the past the most obvious defining feature of RPGs was storyline. If you had dialog, and a plot beyond killing aliens and rescuing the princess it was a safe bet that the game was an RPG. But look at what we have these days, with a game like Advent Rising. It has a pretty strong plot, it has that story and much time is spent in dialog through cutscenes.

If someone had naievly defined RPGs as "Games which have a strong story" then Advent Rising would be a CRPG under that definition today.

Sounds like you're forgetting about adventure games. They usually have to rely on story more than any other genre because they can't rely as much on gameplay in the same way that others do.

 

[DarkSign]

Sarvis, Sarvis.

You are the one that started with the kindergarten antics, by telling me I was automatically wrong.

And what did you do this based on? The assumption that everyone except The Codex agrees on the definition of RPG. Which is false. Get your head out of your ass and start thinking, man!

How do you know what I like and what I dont? I never said or hinted that I dont like action titles. Fuck im building a game thats heavily FPS so I think that throws that out the window.

"But look at what we have these days, with a game like Advent Rising. It has a pretty strong plot, it has that story and much time is spent in dialog through cutscenes.

If someone had naievly defined RPGs as "Games which have a strong story" then Advent Rising would be a CRPG under that definition today."

Thats why you look at the WHOLE test, tardo.
"could you reasonably write a story based on the character's actions from start to finish? "
What part of "based on your characters actions" didnt you get? In Advent rising, I sincerely doubt that there are multiple cutscenes based on your character's choices in the game.

Read all the elements I listed as a whole. Taken together I think they make a decent test/description of what an RPG is.

The fact that I asked for confirmation or comment ...meaning that I might possibly be wrong doesnt MAKE me wrong as you seem to imply.

 

[Sarvis]

Sarvis, Sarvis.

You are the one that started with the kindergarten antics, by telling me I was automatically wrong.

You are creating a new definition which attempts to shove certain games that are RPGs out of the genre, when the correct definition encompasses all RPGs whether they are linear or not.

How do you know what I like and what I dont? I never said or hinted that I dont like action titles. Fuck im building a game thats heavily FPS so I think that throws that out the window.

You defined action titles as any game with a linear story. I'm guessing here, based solely on the fact that you are a Codexer, that you don't like linear games very much.

Of course, this just demonstrates the weakness in your definition if you do, in fact, dislike linear games but do like FPS games because your definition of an action game does nothing to differentiate between the two.

Thats why you look at the WHOLE test, tardo.

What test? And why do you need to resort to insults? Is your position really so weak?

What part of "based on your characters actions" didnt you get? In Advent rising, I sincerely doubt that there are multiple cutscenes based on your character's choices in the game.

There are not, that has nothing at all to do with anything however. This was not in any way about YOUR definition, it was a comparison showing how you are making the same mistake as the hypothetical definition maker I mentioned above.

If someone had defined RPGs by storyline content, then an FPS like Advent Rising would qualify under that definition. AR is clearly not an RPG by anyone's standards, therefore that definition must have something heavily wrong with it.

If AR is not an RPG now, then why would it be if the only thing you added/changed was multiple cutscenes based on your character's choices? It's gameplay would still be the same.

Read all the elements I listed as a whole. Taken together I think they make a decent test/description of what an RPG is.

Except that you are including things which have nothing to do with what an RPG is, and which can and probably WILL eventually be found across all genres.

You are looking at everything EXCEPT the gameplay for your definition, rather than defining based on gameplay.

The fact that I asked for confirmation or comment ...meaning that I might possibly be wrong doesnt MAKE me wrong as you seem to imply.

No, the fact that you feel the need to make a new definition for something which is already defined makes you wrong.

Tomorrow why don't you tell us the new definition for 'Human'?

 

[Neverwhere]

You have to look at <b>gameplay</b> to define a game's genre.

But then again, why does Diablo-style clicking on enemies make a game an RPG?

Truth is, you will always be able to squeeze any game you like into the RPG box, if you try hard enough. Players in my football manager game have stats which increase/decrease based on training and match performance. It must therefore be an RPG. Fahrenheit has an elaborate story. RPG. Morrowind gives me all the freedom I want, and some extra. Obviously an RPG...

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

If you aren't playing one role it's not a role playing game.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

So Prelude to Darkness isn't a roleplaying game?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You are creating a new definition which attempts to shove certain games that are RPGs out of the genre, when the correct definition encompasses all RPGs whether they are linear or not.

But by contrast you are assuming he is wrong because you seem to believe that the current definition (whichever it may be, or whichever you may be thinking of) is right, which is impractical because there is no unified definion which is universally accepted or made to encompass all games which are considered to be RPGs. Isn't that right?

So, unless I read you wrong, you simultaneously stumble upon the problems of:

• 1) presenting a reliable source that has both the deciding power and the knowledge to create and sustain such a definite definition;
  
• 2) the problem of clearly establishing what is and isn't an RPG in order to justify the definition itself, and to present empiric cases that verify it;
  
• and 3) the problem of justifying why he is wrong in thinking, quoting you, "(...) there needs to be a NEW definition of the word" when you (apparently) defend the opposite (ie, "there doesn't need to be a new definition of the word") but fail to explain why, especially because there is no rule that defends or prohibits either attempt at doing so (and as such your attempt to claim any and all other attempts of reworking, rethinking or redefining the word valid for yourself and forbidden for others feel like mere glorified navel gazing, doomed to fall flat).

 

[Section8]

Your argument is again a nebulous piece of vagary, Sarvis.

* Give us the universal definition of RPG
* Explain exactly what elements of gameplay define a genre

You can't just tell DarkSign he's inherently wrong because of a couple of unqualified statements.

 

[Sarvis]

Yeah yeah, save it. I HAVE provided a universal definition, I HAVE provided outside sources, I HAVE provided references.

You guys just don't give a shit.

I'm really getting sick of arguing with you guys, and this thread only got the replies it did because we had an ultra slow day at work.


And in the end, none of you really dealt with what I said anyway.

I'll say it again:

If someone took all the quests and dialog from fallout, and put it into an FPS engine with FPS gameplay mechanics would it be the same game? Your desire to shove a game like that into the RPG genre would suggest that it was.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Gaider only knows how to put the cock in the mouth or the vagina, not the butt. Expect only 2 types of choices.

in the mouth or in the vagina.

 

[Sarvis]

Gaider only knows how to put the cock in the mouth or the vagina, not the butt. Expect only 2 types of choices.

in the mouth or in the vagina.

He knows how to put monkeys in the butt, if that helps any.

 

[Drakron]

Gaider only knows how to put the cock in the mouth or the vagina, not the butt. Expect only 2 types of choices.

in the mouth or in the vagina.

Not into anal?

Must be a paladin.

 

[truekaiser]

what about ogre battle and tactics ogre(the snes version that got released on the psx)?

 

[Sarkile]

what about ogre battle and tactics ogre(the snes version that got released on the psx)?

What about them? You aren't even insinuating an argument with this.

 

[truekaiser]

what about ogre battle and tactics ogre(the snes version that got released on the psx)?

What about them? You aren't even insinuating an argument with this.

the former allowed you to create your main character more or less the way you want through ultima style questions. and the ending is influenced by your choices at the begining of the game and how you handle the revolution.
the latter is like the former but you have more control over the class of your main character.
they both fit your characteristics of rpg's
control over both your character's and the story.