Temple+ Modding Discussion

[Sitra Achara]

Really dumb question, but how do I open the .dat files in Win10? I tried the TOEE extract utility and DATtool, both didn't work for me - they wouldn't even load.

I've updated the utility in the tools thread to include TioUnpack too. You just need the DLLs (seems I neglected to mention the zlib DLL too).

 

[Dercik]

Sitra Achara

I have problem with class skill mod - I wanted to make quick test if it works - and it doesn't. Not even entry on feat list appear. If you could take a quick look and maybe find where i could have made mistake - I would be grateful.

So I did everything what you and wiki said:

I created "overrides" folder in game path and put accordingly files:
- testfeat.txt in C:\Games\Temple of Elemental Evil\overrides\rules\feats

Spoiler

name: Talent Appraise
flags:
prereqs:
description: Chosen skill becomes class skill regardless of what class is your character.
prereq descr:

- testfeat.py in C:\Games\Temple of Elemental Evil\overrides\scr\tpModifiers

Spoiler

from templeplus.pymod import PythonModifier
from toee import *

def FeatTalent(attachee, args, evt_obj):
skill_enum = args.get_param(0)
if evt_obj.arg0 == skill_enum:
evt_obj.return_val = 1
return 0

talent_appraise = PythonModifier('Talent Appraise', 0)
talent_appraise.MapToFeat('Talent Appraise')
talent_appraise.AddHook(ET_OnD20PythonQuery, "Is Class Skill", FeatTalent, (skill_appraise,))

PS
I changed feat name to make it feel more "uniqueish". I also have idea about "Predisposition".

 

[Sitra Achara]

Sitra Achara

I have problem with class skill mod - I wanted to make quick test if it works - and it doesn't. Not even entry on feat list appear. If you could take a quick look and maybe find where i could have made mistake - I would be grateful.

So I did everything what you and wiki said:

I created "overrides" folder in game path and put accordingly files:
- testfeat.txt in C:\Games\Temple of Elemental Evil\overrides\rules\feats

Spoiler

name: Talent Appraise
flags:
prereqs:
description: Chosen skill becomes class skill regardless of what class is your character.
prereq descr:

- testfeat.py in C:\Games\Temple of Elemental Evil\overrides\scr\tpModifiers

Spoiler

from templeplus.pymod import PythonModifier
from toee import *

def FeatTalent(attachee, args, evt_obj):
skill_enum = args.get_param(0)
if evt_obj.arg0 == skill_enum:
evt_obj.return_val = 1
return 0

talent_appraise = PythonModifier('Talent Appraise', 0)
talent_appraise.MapToFeat('Talent Appraise')
talent_appraise.AddHook(ET_OnD20PythonQuery, "Is Class Skill", FeatTalent, (skill_appraise,))

PS
I changed feat name to make it feel more "uniqueish". I also have idea about "Predisposition".

No problem here:

Were you testing it with the character creation UI? I haven't replaced the feats UI there yet, so it won't show up except on levelup.

Edit: Also works now, I had to add some hooks - you should get the latest dev build.

 

[Dercik]

Yeah I was testing it on Character Creation UI, but not on levelup UI.
However script doesn't seem to work.
Well - at least it works partially.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Oh yeah, forgot to memtion that I made an error - it should be data1 instead of arg0.

 

[Dercik]

Well - this still doesn't work.

 

[Sitra Achara]

It worked for me when I fixed that. Also I hope your file is properly indented, unlike what you posted, because otherwise it won't work.

Also, to emphasize, you need to get the latest dev build to have an effect on levelup skill selection. (or wait for 1.0.30 to come out)

 

[Sitra Achara]

Attached working files (the screenshot with the Appraising Barbarian was taken using this).

 

[Dercik]

Ok I believe you . But I will wait for 1.0.30, in the meantime i will expand this mod and possibly plan a team for my next game.

 

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Regarding "feats for additional class skills," how many class skills are worth a feat? For balance reasons, giving all skills as class skills for a single feat seems OK since you still need skill points to power these skills, and the classes with the most skill points also tend to have the most class skills (Rogue, Ranger, Bard). Also, most skills presently aren't useful beyond 7 ranks - though this may change with Skirmish mode or other extra content.

If you'd prefer to be stingier with a feat giving class skills, make it 5 skills per feat. Remember, I could just multiclass Rogue/Ranger/Bard/whatever and probably get these skills more easily! Also, it's kinda like weapon proficiencies: I could spend a feat to get Guisarme proficiency, but unless I have a very good reason, I'm better off multiclassing into Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian and getting it and other things!

Also, what shall we call this feat? Psionics already uses "Talented." Unearthed Arcana 81 calls its feat to give extra class skills "Skill Knowledge."

Skills Presently Most Useful Beyond 7 Ranks

Spoiler

NOTE: Other skills may be useful with super high modifiers, but otherwise don't require skill ranks.

Perform (CHA): Needed for Bard songs.

Survival (WIS): Unsure if it's total ranks or modifier which affects overworld random encounter avoidance.

Skills Presently Most Useful Maxing

Spoiler

NOTE: Total numbers matter more. Skill ranks are optional here.

Appraise (INT): The bonus still caps at a modifier (not rank) of +19.

Concentration (CON): The magic number of +14 lets you always cast defensively.

Hide (DEX) & Move Silently (DEX): Unsure what the magic numbers are here. I used used invisibility (level 2 and 4 versions) and killed stuff instead of using these skills. If more stuff had true seing, these skills would be more useful at high ranks and totals.

Spellcraft (INT): A mod of +23 will let you copy level 9 scrolls into your repertoire. Otherwise, just use a lower number, save before trying, and reload as prudent.

Tumble (DEX): Only if you need more ranks to get to the magic number of +14 so you can always tumble against one foe.

 

[Elestan]

Regarding "feats for additional class skills," how many class skills are worth a feat? For balance reasons, giving all skills as class skills for a single feat seems OK since you still need skill points to power these skills, and the classes with the most skill points also tend to have the most class skills (Rogue, Ranger, Bard). Also, most skills presently aren't useful beyond 7 ranks - though this may change with Skirmish mode or other extra content.

If you'd prefer to be stingier with a feat giving class skills, make it 5 skills per feat. Remember, I could just multiclass Rogue/Ranger/Bard/whatever and probably get these skills more easily! Also, it's kinda like weapon proficiencies: I could spend a feat to get Guisarme proficiency, but unless I have a very good reason, I'm better off multiclassing into Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian and getting it and other things!

The mechanical tradeoff between Feats and Skills seems to be 1 Feat == 4 Skill points. Witness Athletic, Acrobatic, Agile, and all of the other Feats that grant +2 to two related skills.

If I were to try to balance a Feat like this, I would presume that the person wants at least four ranks in the skill (otherwise why bother), and try to make it cost about the same at that level, and then it starts saving you points if you go higher. At four ranks, it's saving you four skill points. so it should cost about one feat per new class skill.

Getting every skill as a class skill for a single Feat is dramatically out of balance with the existing mechanics. Such a Feat would give the non-skill-focused classes a significant portion of the Rogue's flexibility (even though they would not have as many skill points), making the Rogue correspondingly less attractive.

Rather than implement non-standard mechanics like this, I would suggest trying to implement the generic classes from the SRD. They allow players to pick their class skills, which would provide the same sort of flexibility that this Feat was aiming for, in a more balanced way.

 

[Elestan]

Unearthed Arcana 81 calls its feat to give extra class skills "Skill Knowledge."

I just looked at Skill Knowledge, and it matches my construction. So what you're trying to do is create a far more powerful version of an already published Feat. While you can certainly do that in your own game, or your own mod, I wouldn't want to use it because it's out-of-balance with all of the existing ones.

 

[Endarire]

Also, +2 on two skills or +3 on one skill is generally considered very weak in tabletop. I've only considered taking these skill bonus feats as prerequisites/theoretical exercises in tabletop and, in ToEE, when I didn't yet understand ample mechanics and was building a pseudo Iron Man party.

The only reason I liked Alertness is that it came free with every Sor/Wiz familiar!

What about 2 or 3 class skills for a feat? It's mechanically better than Skill Knowledge in some cases, but is closer, balance-wise, to being feat-worthy. Again, someone taking this feat probably already has or will soon have a class with 4 or more + INT mod skill points per level!

Elestan: Regarding generic classes, consider calling them Generic Spellcaster, Generic Expert, and Generic Warrior. That way, no name conflicts!

 

[Elestan]

Also, +2 on two skills or +3 on one skill is generally considered very weak in tabletop.

I agree, actually; I think D&D should have had a Feat be +2 to three skills, not two. But they decided on two.

What about 2 or 3 class skills for a feat? It's mechanically better than Skill Knowledge in some cases, but is closer, balance-wise, to being feat-worthy.

The question is whether Temple+ (or a House Rules option of it) is intended to try to fix perceived balance problems in D&D itself. as opposed to just implementing published and/or frequently requested options. That's up to Sitra, but the danger in trying is that as soon as you open that door, you're going to get different contributors with different ideas about where the 'proper' balance is, with no objective way to resolve disagreements.

One thing that would help is if we get a way to tag added content (Feats, spells, classes, etc). That way you could tag your custom Feats as being part of the "Endarire" subgroup, and people could configure that group on or off as they desired. That would allow a bit more freedom for people to go their own way. But as long as there's just one "Non-Core" category, I think it would be best to try to stay reasonably consistent with the rest of the rules.

My own goal is increased flexibility. When I start working on my own mod elements (hopefully over the holidays), I want to try implementing some of the Unearthed Arcana options like the generic classes, spell points, weapon groups, etc. But I'm going to try to keep them all balanced against the pre-existing stuff.

If we did want to start making balance adjustments, I think we should start by looking at Pathfinder; making the Pathfinder skill system changes available would be a particularly nice addition.

 

[Sitra Achara]

One thing that would help is if we get a way to tag added content (Feats, spells, classes, etc). That way you could tag your custom Feats as being part of the "Endarire" subgroup, and people could configure that group on or off as they desired. That would allow a bit more freedom for people to go their own way. But as long as there's just one "Non-Core" category, I think it would be best to try to stay reasonably consistent with the rest of the rules.

I'm no expert, but doesn't balance fly out the window once you introduce non-core materials (even the official stuff)?

Specifically for this, I view this as more of a personal mod - you can just create talent_feats.dat from the files, drop it in the ToEE folder and it'll take hold.

 

[Endarire]

Regarding feats for class skills, I propose 3 perma-class skills per feat. There are 21 current skills in the game.

Even regarding core material, casters already won. Someone soloed the original game as a pure Cleric. I could have done it as an arcane caster, but preferred two characters so a friend and I could play together.

 

[Elestan]

I'm no expert, but doesn't balance fly out the window once you introduce non-core materials (even the official stuff)?

It might; my group mainly stuck with core materials, so I'm not all that familiar with the rest.

Specifically for this, I view this as more of a personal mod - you can just create talent_feats.dat from the files, drop it in the ToEE folder and it'll take hold.

Regarding feats for class skills, I propose 3 perma-class skills per feat. There are 21 current skills in the game.

If this is for a personal mod, then do whatever makes it fun for you.

 

[Endarire]

In tabletop, generally core-only is the least balanced material list because martials get so few options. A lot of the most broken abilities are in core.

 

[Pygmy]

Is there a way to extend resonance to apply to divine spellcasters? I have been fiddling with a copy of the 775resonance.py file in the scr folder; I have moved cleric out of the "and not" bracket and into the "if" bracket and am somewhat perplexed that this change in logical statement doesn't cause the spell effect to change to "read magic" rather than "fizzle" when cast by a cleric.

I have tried twice in case I made a careless slip with brackets.

I had previously added resonance to the wizard, bard and sorcerer spell-lists via resonance.txt which performed as intended. I have now added resonance to the cleric castable spells by the same means

Is the effect of resonance controlled by something other than 775resonance.py? I know that extension of resonance to sorcerers presented problems pre-Templeplus but don't understand why ToEE contains logical statements it doesn't use?

Thanks

 

[Sitra Achara]

There's an override for that file inside the Temple+ files (specifically inside co8fixes.dat). You should extract it and place it in the overrides folder.

 

[Pygmy]

Sorry me again - and after posting at wrong place last time (I am really flattered to be put in your modding section)

Thank you for instructions

Have extracted co8fixes.dat from Templeplus 1.0.29 scr folder and copied 775resonance.py into 1.0.29 override folder (no effect!)

Then downloaded Cream and edited 775resonance.py copying the Wizard lines again and replacing Wizard with Cleric on both occasions before saving it in .py format

I expected one of two things to occur - either I had made IsValid=1 for my cleric so that a read magic effect occurred (irrespective of whether resonance actually occurred) or I would have prevented resonance occurring for my test sorcerer by screwing up the spell

Strangely enough the spell fizzled with the cleric and continued to work with the sorcerer - I am obviously doing something really stupid and I cannot think what......

 

[Kosiciel]

Have extracted co8fixes.dat from Templeplus 1.0.29 scr folder and copied 775resonance.py into 1.0.29 override folder (no effect!)

I would try to put it in ToEE game folder \overrides\scr\, or Temple+ overrides\scr\
Here is quickly modified file - could you try it?

http://www114.zippyshare.com/v/bX2dK3eS/file.html

 

[Pygmy]

Thanks - downloaded but now time for bed (UK) will try tomorrow

 

[Pygmy]

Kosiciel

Thanks I tried your file (once I had moved a bracket) in the Temple+ 1.0.29 overides and in the ToEE/data/scr folders. Once again this had no effect on either cleric or sorcerer characters - note that as sorcerers do not have any spells-prepared-to-memorise your adaptation of the original Co8 resonance spell must fail for sorcerers as it did before Sitra Achara's new version of the spell, so the overide is still being ignored.

 

[Kosiciel]

Kosiciel
Thanks I tried your file (once I had moved a bracket) in the Temple+ 1.0.29 overides and in the ToEE/data/scr folders. Once again this had no effect on either cleric or sorcerer characters - note that as sorcerers do not have any spells-prepared-to-memorise your adaptation of the original Co8 resonance spell must fail for sorcerers as it did before Sitra Achara's new version of the spell, so the overide is still being ignored.

Sorry, it was fast edit and I took .py file from ToEE folder, not extracted from Temple+ .dat. New version by Sitra definietely works for bards, so it should for sorcerers too (both use same spellcasting type without preparation). Not sure about adding cleric - probably some more tweaking needed then only adding lines to .py file.