The Authentic RPG and its Tragic Demise

[J_C]

It's like if PC GAMER came to the conclusion that RPGs were declining because they stopped using cover and regenerating health and started using medkits and healing spells instead. Sure, we would agree on the overall premise of a declining industry, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't hold us back from calling PC GAMER a bunch of retards.

I see your point. If we look at this way, than the writer of the article is truly wrong.

 

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

Let's break this down.

Why? There's not much of a point. If I'm just trolling you, then eventually I'll get permabanned, whlist never agreeing with a single thing you say.

I buy and fund indies, provide feedback on them, and provide LPs and general information to let people know that there are RPGs out there that aren't sub-par third-person shooters with gay sex options. I've made plenty of converts. The indie scene has never been healthier, and it's due to people like us bitching and moaning that people like Vault Dweller and the guy who made Knights of the Chalice have launched into their own indie careers, making the kind of games we actually want. Supply and demand, mate. If they didn't know we wanted it, they wouldn't make it, and now they're doing so.

Awesome! Glad to hear it. I'm happy to know that the indie scene is alive and well, and I'm glad that you actually BUY your games.

I'm an idiot for finding the wrong things fun and asking for a bit less mindlessness in my entertainment, and I'm a shit stirrer for talking about it on a forum where everyone is pretty much on the same page as me. Unlike the guy who just wandered in and started demanding that we all love Mass Effect. He's not a shit stirrer at all. Check.

Nope, I never called you an idiot for liking the wrong things. Furthermore, I never once told you that you HAD to like what I liked, or anything else for that matter. I simply said that if I DON'T like a title, the last thing I do is run mouth about it for months and years on end. I've never once talked shit about anything YOU liked, but you sure like to get up on your soapbox about what I like.

Fuck yeah man, apathy is king. It's not at all possible that I'm capable of time management and devote my time equally to entertainment and actually important pursuits. Why does leisure time mean you need to completely switch your brain off and become a passive moron accepting whatever you're given? Are you in the habit of running up to people reading Dostoyevsky in public, tearing the book out of their hands screaming that they're morons for not exclusively reading books from Oprah's book club recommendations and forcing Twilight into their hands instead?

I'm not going to debate whether or not you're capable of managing your time. What I've said from the beginning, and what I said a short time ago, is that it's not ME that's running up to anybody and tearing the book out of their hands. I've never advocated forcing anyone to play a particular type of game (and I challenge you to find a quote that explicitly says so). What the situation is more like, and what it's always been like, looks more like this: There are 50 people on park benches, reading Twilight, and you and your buddies are sitting on another bench, reading Neitzsche, Longfellow, Kant, etc, but every once in a while, you simultaneously jump up and stand on the bench, bemoaning the devolution and decline of a once proud and intelligent species, pointing your fingers and cursing the people reading Twilight as the sole reason society is going to shit. Don't care if they read other books, don't care if they have other hobbies, don't care if they are capable of liking intelligent, superbly crafted works of art, but also fully appreciative of the opportunity to enjoy something that's purely fluff. That's what you can't comprehend: That someone can be appreciative of art without being elitist about it.

No, apparently you don't. You join forums for people who find it fun and troll those instead. That's a far more worthy and intelligent pursuit, right? Nothing like them and their futile rage.

What was my first post on this forum? Did it personally go after you and the games you like? I believe that I was addressing the author of the article when I said that the interpretation of the genre of a game is subjective, and that it's stupid to bemoan the state of something that hasn't been original in 30 years.

You forgot about "playing doctor and patient" with your male friend, Bruce. That's the most important kind of roleplaying games and you probably enjoy it immensely.

This, however was one of the responses to my first post. By a member of like minded individuals who have a hobby that they like to discuss.

Haha, I know, right? Who enjoys games from 1987? They... like... don't have bloom or anything! It can't possibly be that people have different taste to you, they must just be doing it to pretend to be superior! That's all it fucking comes down to. We have different taste to you. Is it so hard to believe that some people have a hobby that they enjoy, they enjoy discussing it with like-minded people, that they want games to be like they used to be, that they've been told directly by the industry that they're never going to be catered to again, and that they're justifiably angry at that?

You're making my point FOR me. I enjoyed, AND played games from back in the day, and if an indie game made today came on my radar that piqued my interest, I wouldn't HESITATE to give it a go. Do I have a lot of time to dig for indie games, play open betas, giving all kinds of feedback? No, not really, but that doesn't mean that in purchasing something from Bethesda, or Obsidian, or Bioware that I'm directly opposing them, either. But you have manufactured this kind of...persecution, and believe, actually BELIEVE, that in shunning major labels and talking shit about their games and their consumers, you somehow know something that they don't, that you're somehow better. I never once attacked the games you liked. In fact, I never ASKED you what games you liked. I simply put forth, as examples, games that I liked, and look what happened?

Lastly, answer me this: Who makes space-flight sims any more? Any new Wing Commander titles out there? Freespace? Tachyon? Independence war (I'm sure there are a TON of others)? Where did they go? The market for those games is DEAD, and you wanna know why? Because there are NO major studios making any.

The reason that the indie RPG scene is doing so well is because there's a market for it. The indie scene is healthier than ever BECAUSE of major studios, not in spite of them. I will freely admit to being a fan of Bioware, flaws and all. Hackneyed writing, predictable and recycled plot, flawed, overdramatic romances, stereotypical antagonists and protagonists, but I've played just about every game they've put out since '98, and I've accepted them for what they were. Like I said, I'm not looking for a life altering experience from my entertainment. That's what life is for.

It's like when the settlers came to america and drove out the indians from their homeland.

No. It is not. The mutability and evolution of the RPG video game genre, particularly your feelings about it, is NOTHING like the systematic genocide of an indigenous population. It is in no way like the wholesale exploitation and slaughter of more than one hundred million people. It is not even visible at an atomic level when the two levels of significance are compared.

 

[Hobo Elf]

If I'm just trolling you, then eventually I'll get permabanned, whlist never agreeing with a single thing you say.

You do realise we are on the Codex, right?

 

[torpid]

I never once attacked the games you liked. In fact, I never ASKED you what games you liked.

I certainly don't troll internet forums and masturbate myself to sleep with obscure indie "masterpieces" from 1987.

You can, though.

Nice backtrack bro

 

[Clockwork Knight]

^Chalmers is doing the "Bioware Forums" approach to attacks. Put it between apostrophes, make it look like a simple observation, and voila, it wasn't an attack at all!

Example of use:

Wow, you like [game]? You're a fucking retard.

Well, at least I'm not the one masturbating to obscure, old "masterpieces"

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Well, that was toothless. Even the rebel invaders of 2011 are shite.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

Guys. Guys. Can't we have a serious discussion? One where you focus on my points and tell me how intelligent I am?

 

[J_C]

Chalmers, calm down! Read my signiture! See, you are in a place like that. Codexers are very passionate about those really good RPGs from the past, and don't like the way modern RPGs turned out. Don't be surprised if we are not so tolerant towards those games, and their developers. You made some good points, but don't bother change the mindset of the Codexers, you will fail.

 

[Grunker]

Let's break this down.

Why? There's not much of a point. If I'm just trolling you, then eventually I'll get permabanned, whlist never agreeing with a single thing you say.

I buy and fund indies, provide feedback on them, and provide LPs and general information to let people know that there are RPGs out there that aren't sub-par third-person shooters with gay sex options. I've made plenty of converts. The indie scene has never been healthier, and it's due to people like us bitching and moaning that people like Vault Dweller and the guy who made Knights of the Chalice have launched into their own indie careers, making the kind of games we actually want. Supply and demand, mate. If they didn't know we wanted it, they wouldn't make it, and now they're doing so.

Awesome! Glad to hear it. I'm happy to know that the indie scene is alive and well, and I'm glad that you actually BUY your games.

I'm an idiot for finding the wrong things fun and asking for a bit less mindlessness in my entertainment, and I'm a shit stirrer for talking about it on a forum where everyone is pretty much on the same page as me. Unlike the guy who just wandered in and started demanding that we all love Mass Effect. He's not a shit stirrer at all. Check.

Nope, I never called you an idiot for liking the wrong things. Furthermore, I never once told you that you HAD to like what I liked, or anything else for that matter. I simply said that if I DON'T like a title, the last thing I do is run mouth about it for months and years on end. I've never once talked shit about anything YOU liked, but you sure like to get up on your soapbox about what I like.

Fuck yeah man, apathy is king. It's not at all possible that I'm capable of time management and devote my time equally to entertainment and actually important pursuits. Why does leisure time mean you need to completely switch your brain off and become a passive moron accepting whatever you're given? Are you in the habit of running up to people reading Dostoyevsky in public, tearing the book out of their hands screaming that they're morons for not exclusively reading books from Oprah's book club recommendations and forcing Twilight into their hands instead?

I'm not going to debate whether or not you're capable of managing your time. What I've said from the beginning, and what I said a short time ago, is that it's not ME that's running up to anybody and tearing the book out of their hands. I've never advocated forcing anyone to play a particular type of game (and I challenge you to find a quote that explicitly says so). What the situation is more like, and what it's always been like, looks more like this: There are 50 people on park benches, reading Twilight, and you and your buddies are sitting on another bench, reading Neitzsche, Longfellow, Kant, etc, but every once in a while, you simultaneously jump up and stand on the bench, bemoaning the devolution and decline of a once proud and intelligent species, pointing your fingers and cursing the people reading Twilight as the sole reason society is going to shit. Don't care if they read other books, don't care if they have other hobbies, don't care if they are capable of liking intelligent, superbly crafted works of art, but also fully appreciative of the opportunity to enjoy something that's purely fluff. That's what you can't comprehend: That someone can be appreciative of art without being elitist about it.

No, apparently you don't. You join forums for people who find it fun and troll those instead. That's a far more worthy and intelligent pursuit, right? Nothing like them and their futile rage.

What was my first post on this forum? Did it personally go after you and the games you like? I believe that I was addressing the author of the article when I said that the interpretation of the genre of a game is subjective, and that it's stupid to bemoan the state of something that hasn't been original in 30 years.

You forgot about "playing doctor and patient" with your male friend, Bruce. That's the most important kind of roleplaying games and you probably enjoy it immensely.

This, however was one of the responses to my first post. By a member of like minded individuals who have a hobby that they like to discuss.

Haha, I know, right? Who enjoys games from 1987? They... like... don't have bloom or anything! It can't possibly be that people have different taste to you, they must just be doing it to pretend to be superior! That's all it fucking comes down to. We have different taste to you. Is it so hard to believe that some people have a hobby that they enjoy, they enjoy discussing it with like-minded people, that they want games to be like they used to be, that they've been told directly by the industry that they're never going to be catered to again, and that they're justifiably angry at that?

You're making my point FOR me. I enjoyed, AND played games from back in the day, and if an indie game made today came on my radar that piqued my interest, I wouldn't HESITATE to give it a go. Do I have a lot of time to dig for indie games, play open betas, giving all kinds of feedback? No, not really, but that doesn't mean that in purchasing something from Bethesda, or Obsidian, or Bioware that I'm directly opposing them, either. But you have manufactured this kind of...persecution, and believe, actually BELIEVE, that in shunning major labels and talking shit about their games and their consumers, you somehow know something that they don't, that you're somehow better. I never once attacked the games you liked. In fact, I never ASKED you what games you liked. I simply put forth, as examples, games that I liked, and look what happened?

Lastly, answer me this: Who makes space-flight sims any more? Any new Wing Commander titles out there? Freespace? Tachyon? Independence war (I'm sure there are a TON of others)? Where did they go? The market for those games is DEAD, and you wanna know why? Because there are NO major studios making any.

The reason that the indie RPG scene is doing so well is because there's a market for it. The indie scene is healthier than ever BECAUSE of major studios, not in spite of them. I will freely admit to being a fan of Bioware, flaws and all. Hackneyed writing, predictable and recycled plot, flawed, overdramatic romances, stereotypical antagonists and protagonists, but I've played just about every game they've put out since '98, and I've accepted them for what they were. Like I said, I'm not looking for a life altering experience from my entertainment. That's what life is for.

It's like when the settlers came to america and drove out the indians from their homeland.

No. It is not. The mutability and evolution of the RPG video game genre, particularly your feelings about it, is NOTHING like the systematic genocide of an indigenous population. It is in no way like the wholesale exploitation and slaughter of more than one hundred million people. It is not even visible at an atomic level when the two levels of significance are compared.

Well, what can we say? Odds are something you like very much sucks... Why?

Because this is the RPG Codex.

Other than that, I'll play nice, just this once: They won't argue with you anymore. Why?

Spoiler

On the Codex an attack is an attack. On other forums "you masturbate to old games" is not, while "you're a fucking retarded ape" is. On the Codex, we're not semantics when it comes to our inults. We bash each other with the first kind and second kind equally.

Play ball, accept that your insults are just as bad as ours, and you'll find interesting discussion here. Keep on insisting a sentence isn't an attack if there's not a cuss-word in it, and we'll post lol-pics as a response to each of your posts.

 

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

I never once attacked the games you liked. In fact, I never ASKED you what games you liked.

I certainly don't troll internet forums and masturbate myself to sleep with obscure indie "masterpieces" from 1987.

You can, though.

Nice backtrack bro

Who's backtracking? I stand by every word I said, "bro". I was never attacking your TASTE, I was attacking your ATTITUDE. If you actually read what I write in context, you'd get that.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah because your attitude is any better.

 

[mondblut]

You forgot about "playing doctor and patient" with your male friend, Bruce. That's the most important kind of roleplaying games and you probably enjoy it immensely.

This, however was one of the responses to my first post. By a member of like minded individuals who have a hobby that they like to discuss.

You clearly discriminate against one particular kind of roleplaying John McClain. How elitist of you.

 

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

Chalmers, calm down! Read my signiture! See, you are in a place like that. Codexers are very passionate about those really good RPGs from the past, and don't like the way modern RPGs turned out. Don't be surprised if we are not so tolerant towards those games, and their developers. You made some good points, but don't bother change the mindset of the Codexers, you will fail.

It's not big deal, man. It may sound like I'm getting heated, but nothing could be further from the truth. I just really like a good argument.

Stringing together a bunch of naughty words about my confusing anatomy, dubious genetic inheritance, or bizarre sexual proclivities isn't going to faze me in the least. It's not like being accepted on a internet forum is somehow going to translate to an elevated social status.

 

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

Yeah because your attitude is any better.

What, you mean an attitude that's more inclusive, yet vocally opposed to the ridiculous self importance of others?

I accept.

 

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

You forgot about "playing doctor and patient" with your male friend, Bruce. That's the most important kind of roleplaying games and you probably enjoy it immensely.

This, however was one of the responses to my first post. By a member of like minded individuals who have a hobby that they like to discuss.

You clearly discriminate against one particular kind of roleplaying John McClain. How elitist of you.

You got me there. Good catch.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

Guys. Guys. Can't we have a serious discussion? One where you focus on my points and tell me how intelligent I am?

Well, what can we say? Odds are something you like very much sucks... Why?

Because this is the RPG Codex.

You've missed the important part, Grunker.

Guys. Guys. Can't we have a serious discussion? One where you focus on my points and tell me how intelligent I am?"

 

[commie]

Well, that was toothless. Even the rebel invaders of 2011 are shite.

Newfags, newfags never change.....


All full balls and erect cocks, coming to the Codex to prove their honor.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

Newfags, newfags never change.....


All full balls and erect cocks, coming to the Codex to prove their honor.

Another month posting along with you fine entities and I'll finally become a man, in the eyes of RPGWatch. :D

 

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my worth and intelligence.
My post count proves my wor...

 

[AJGB]

@ every single thing SuperNintendo Chalmers has written in this thread:

Stupid complacent populist fucks like you are the reason films like this get made. I know you're thinking you're making a totally sensible dudebrah argument itt, and you're more or less vindicated by the vast majority of spineless homunculi that comprise the games journalism industry (of which I am a former member), but everything you've said in here is Pez-dispenser populist bilge that doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny when you consider that art has value beyond, you know, Casual Thrillz in between your Important Real Life Appointments. Feeling this way doesn't make you a stable, sensible human being, despite your obvious - it just makes you a philistine.

Yeah, there was once a time where the role-playing game genre actually had more to offer than INTENSE CINEMATIC EMOTIONEERING GAY ELF BUTTFUCK ROMANTIC SPACESHIP EXPLOSION, and the posters on this forum have every right to lament the decline of the genre. Because it is a decline. Pick up Fallout and compare the level of player agency, depth of character customisation (so comprehensive that any kind of LARPery was completely inessential), and flexibility of "player narrative" (as opposed to "designer narrative") on offer to what you get in fucking Mass Effect 2, and tell me shit's not royally fucked up the fucking wall of wailing cocks.

And don't give me this "but it's fun!!!1" tripe - "fun" is the most despicably useless critical term ever created; it has no real descriptive value and encompasses such a wide variety of sensations from person to person. And what's more, you blatantly ignore the possibility that a videogame (any videogame, not just an RPG) could, in fact, just maybe, be more than just "fun". Does art really need to always be "fun" or "exciting" in order to be worthwhile to you? Is the idea of a group of people wanting more from games than just HAHAAA I TRIGGERED A 3D SEX CUTSCENE ABND THEN BELEW UP A SPACESHIP so offensive? Are you really that much of a retard?

To say there's something wrong with people complaining about the decline of a specific facet of any artistic medium is basically tantamount to ignoring the value of criticism itself. Why have opinions? Why have standards of quality? Sure, I guess rape is pretty shit, but LOTS OF PEOPLE DO IT SO IT MUST BE GOOD?

 

[shihonage]

@ every single thing SuperNintendo Chalmers has written in this thread:

Stupid complacent populist fucks like you are the reason films like this get made. I know you're thinking you're making a totally sensible dudebrah argument itt, and you're more or less vindicated by the vast majority of spineless homunculi that comprise the games journalism industry (of which I am a former member), but everything you've said in here is Pez-dispenser populist bilge that doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny when you consider that art has value beyond, you know, Casual Thrillz in between your Important Real Life Appointments. Feeling this way doesn't make you a stable, sensible human being, despite your obvious - it just makes you a philistine.

Yeah, there was once a time where the role-playing game genre actually had more to offer than INTENSE CINEMATIC EMOTIONEERING GAY ELF BUTTFUCK ROMANTIC SPACESHIP EXPLOSION, and the posters on this forum have every right to lament the decline of the genre. Because it is a decline. Pick up Fallout and compare the level of player agency, depth of character customisation (so comprehensive that any kind of LARPery was completely inessential), and flexibility of "player narrative" (as opposed to "designer narrative") on offer to what you get in fucking Mass Effect 2, and tell me shit's not royally fucked up the fucking wall of wailing cocks.

And don't give me this "but it's fun!!!1" tripe - "fun" is the most despicably useless critical term ever created; it has no real descriptive value and encompasses such a wide variety of sensations from person to person. And what's more, you blatantly ignore the possibility that a videogame (any videogame, not just an RPG) could, in fact, just maybe, be more than just "fun". Does art really need to always be "fun" or "exciting" in order to be worthwhile to you? Is the idea of a group of people wanting more from games than just HAHAAA I TRIGGERED A 3D SEX CUTSCENE ABND THEN BELEW UP A SPACESHIP so offensive? Are you really that much of a retard?

To say there's something wrong with people complaining about the decline of a specific facet of any artistic medium is basically tantamount to ignoring the value of criticism itself. Why have opinions? Why have standards of quality? Sure, I guess rape is pretty shit, but LOTS OF PEOPLE DO IT SO IT MUST BE GOOD?

 

[Grunker]

+1

Also, I must be getting old... I quoted OminousBlueDot instead of SuperNintendo Chalmers by mistake

Fixed.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

Also, I must be getting old... I quoted OminousBlueDot instead of SuperNintendo Chalmers by mistake

Fixed.

It was just nice to be acknowledged, Ancient One.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Hexen 2 did it as well, but 2 years later. The thing is that it was done relatively well and it made sense. Also, it wasn't the norm back then. Now every game needs to have RPG influences to give the game an illusion of depth and enhance the longevity of the game with superficial grinding.

I don't actually mind this. I like the fact that action games are being 'enhanced' and made a bit deeper by adding RPG elements.

I just wish to christ it wasn't THE ONLY FUCKING CHOICE!

 

[Sceptic]

I don't know who you are, but that was awesome