NWN The Blades of Netheril: Doom of Icewind Dale - NWN1 OC sequel DLC from Ossian's Luke Scull

[Grunker]

Crispy Sharwyn is doing that - casting spells in melee until she gets raped by the AoOs - in my plain OC campaign. She will also fire her bow in melee which is why I told her to switch to melee weapons in the first place. I assumed it was just part of NWN’s useless AI.

 

[Crispy]

Yeah, I played some more of DoIWD and she's doing the same thing. Luke can't necessarily be blamed for this, specifically, but I wonder why and how other modmakers have been able to program in alternate A.I. choices for your henchman/companions, that actually work.

Here's an example:

In Swordflight Chapter One, Zarala has the following dialogue options, all provided without modifying anything:

- The typical ones
- Stay stealthy all the time or you can tell her just until the next encounter
- Do not dispel party conditions
- Don't cast any spells at all until told to

In addition to that, and I just double-checked this right before posting this, she automatically and correctly switches from whichever missile weapon(s) and melee weapon(s) you equip her with, at the appropriate distances. Every time.

So this seems to indicate to me that henchmen A.I. in NWNEE is provided solely by the module author, or that it's baked in to the base game but somehow it's just not working -- like, at all -- in DoIWD. What's even odder is that Swordflight is such an old module, and wasn't even designed for EE.

 

[Crispy]

Here's another example that I just checked. In Tyrants, both Sharalyn and Lyressa perfectly swap out provided missile weapons for their melee weapons, every time, then automatically switch back again to missile weaponry. There are no haks involved, nothing in override. Just right out of the box. It's absolutely night and day compared to DoIWD, which, comparitively, is almost unplayable because of this problem.

Something's got to explain it. It's like DoIWD was written a long time ago with completely outdated code and was only recently adapted to the EE or something. But if that were true then why is Swordflight handling things so much better? I just don't get it.

 

[Grunker]

But is the behavior EE or just default NWN..?

 

[Crispy]

I honestly can't remember it being this bad in any of the content I've played under EE. That includes DoD, TotM, and Swordflight chapters one and two.

 

[Lacrymas]

Crispy

Here's how the dialogue with Valen goes in my game -

And I do notice a change in how enemies cast spells, but I haven't played with the vanilla AI in ages, so it might not be working and the vanilla AI is just fairly ok. Two enemy wizards can and do rape my entire party if I'm not proactive at stopping their casts or somehow defending myself from their spells.

 

[Riddler]

Haste and Improved Invisibility are the two most powerful buffs in the game. They should be very, VERY hard to obtain, if at all.

Haste is what makes NwNs long as fuck rounds and slow walk speed bearable. As long as it's expected that everyone is perma-hasted and encounters are balanced around that it's not a problem at all.

Just use cheatengine or something similar and increas game speed by +2x.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

It's been over a year now, but I rolled with Sharwyn almost exclusively in the OC and her A.I. was abysmal. Basically, I was playing a mage so I was constantly commanding her to switch to melee after having buffed her and she just would not listen or rather would do so only in certain encounters, seemingly randomly or of her own accord. All other times she'd try to cast spells in melee and never really accomplish much.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Why do guys put with companions that are as bad as you describe AND mooch experience points off your character?

 

[Lacrymas]

Why do guys put with companions that are as bad as you describe AND mooch experience points off your character?

Only "hybrids" seem to be bad because they don't know not to cast spells in melee or don't switch to appropriate weapons. Pure spellcasters or martials are very useful and they don't leech that much xp. For 1 companion, you get 80% xp, so it's not like you take twice as long to level. And people like companions with personality, modern BioWare's whole shtick is basically that. Not that BioWare will last very much longer.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Why do guys put with companions that are as bad as you describe AND mooch experience points off your character?

Because the XP loss isn't enough to matter. You'll be two levels lower by end game but who cares when the game's difficulty is frontloaded like most Bioware titles.
Why keep her? I'm sentimental for the cherry tart that played interference when it mattered. Being bum-rushed by skeletal knights as a caster, it's good to have friends along.

 

[Grunker]

Why do guys put with companions that are as bad as you describe AND mooch experience points off your character?

Sharwyn is easily three times as effective as my MC currently lol. She hits on nearly every attack with her double-bladed sword and deals 8-14 damage against my pitiful 2-6 (I don't have Int to damage from Swashbuckler yet because I want to avoid multiclass XP penalty).

In addition, PRC limits you to rest every 16 hours, meaning Sharwyn never has her spells up. So as long as I put her on melee, she's fine <3

 

[Gargaune]

Sharwyn is doing that - casting spells in melee until she gets raped by the AoOs - in my plain OC campaign.

Handling spellcaster henchmen in NWN is always a bit of a bother, you wanna micromanage them with the Toggle Spellcasting option in their radial menu. Generally, I wouldn't let any spellcaster AI use a melee weapon other than maybe a heavily armoured cleric, and even that one's gonna take a beating the first time they get their buffs up. The OC's bust for lack of inventory access, but in most other modules I strip the magelings of their melee weapons.

Also, use the EE party controls for tactical battlefield positioning. When you come across a tough encounter, call Stand Your Ground and manage henchmen like it's BG. Open aggro yourself or have a warrior hireling do it and if hostiles close in on a squishy, make them fall back (remember, Shift + double click to run) and intercept.

Luke can't necessarily be blamed for this, specifically, but I wonder why and how other modmakers have been able to program in alternate A.I. choices for your henchman/companions, that actually work.

A module-builder may want to avoid implementing an upgraded henchman AI package precisely so as not to override any mod the player chooses to install, like TonyK's AI.

Keep in mind that range may not be the only factor an NPC calculates when they want to switch weapons, feats and weapon quality could also factor in, seeing as henchmen tend do swap among melee weapons too if they have more than one. I'm speculating, but comparing behaviours may not be helpful without accounting for feats and gear. Zarala uses X0 in Swordflight (at least Ch.1 and 2). Sharalyn uses HF in TotM, which is DoD's wrapped NW_AC, which calls... X0. Most modules, official and fan-made, fall back in some capacity to X0_INC_HENAI (which includes weapon selection routines), and I really doubt Luke's done anything different here.

But is the behavior EE or just default NWN..?

Default. The EE's hasn't changed standard script sets, that's a nasty can of worms to dig into.

 

[Grunker]

Sharwyn is doing that - casting spells in melee until she gets raped by the AoOs - in my plain OC campaign.

Handling spellcaster henchmen in NWN is always a bit of a bother, you wanna micromanage them with the Toggle Spellcasting option in their radial menu. Generally, I wouldn't let any spellcaster AI use a melee weapon other than maybe a heavily armoured cleric, and even that one's gonna take a beating the first time they get their buffs up. The OC's bust for lack of inventory access, but in most other modules I strip the magelings of their melee weapons.

Also, use the EE party controls for tactical battlefield positioning. When you come across a tough encounter, call Stand Your Ground and manage henchmen like it's BG. Open aggro yourself or have a warrior hireling do it and if hostiles close in on a squishy, make them fall back (remember, Shift + double click to run) and intercept.

Like I said though: right now, in the early levels, Sharwyn outfights my Swashbuckler 2/Fighter 2/Wizard 1, except for her poor AC, because I have no melee damage stat yet *and* for some reason she is kitted for two-weapon fighting so she hits very regular with 2 attacks, which is a lot at those level. So right now she deals damage while I tank

 

[Lacrymas]

Like I said though: right now, in the early levels, Sharwyn outfights my Swashbuckler 2/Fighter 2/Wizard 1, except for her poor AC, because I have no melee damage stat yet *and* for some reason she is kitted for two-weapon fighting so she hits very regular with 2 attacks, which is a lot at those level. So right now she deals damage while I tank

I suggest complementing the entourage with a summon. Swashbuckler 2/Fighter 2/Wizard 1 sounds relatively weak, so summoning a creature might help you out even if Sharwyn is in the party. Pure bards aren't known to be powerhouses either way ;d

 

[Grunker]

Summons are 1 round/level in PRC

I didn't mind running with a sort of weak build since I recall the OC being fairly easy.

But I'm managing fine with potions so far - and later when Sharwyn because more shitty, my build should be online.

 

[Nerevar]

Jeez you guys really make use of your henchmen. I usually just make them stand in the corner while I clean the map.

 

[flushfire]

The module's starting areas seem rough for martial classes due to lack of equips. My vanilla fighter barely survived yetis and had to cheese the giant one. I can understand not giving a full plate from the get-go, but is a shield too much to ask? Meanwhile a wizard mows thru everything.

 

[Crispy]

Why do guys put with companions that are as bad as you describe AND mooch experience points off your character?

Jeez you guys really make use of your henchmen. I usually just make them stand in the corner while I clean the map.

Do me a favor:

- Buy Doom of Icewind Dale

- Roll up your character, any kind. Don't take any henchmen, just go solo

- Proceed to the point where you leave town and in the first area have to deal with ice troll berserkers, rangers, and sorcerers

- Come back here afterwards and tell me how things went

 

[Crispy]

I find Luke's lack of responses lately in this thread to be disturbing.

See what I did there? "Luke"?

 

[Infinitron]

I find Luke's lack of responses lately in this thread to be disturbing.

See what I did there? "Luke"?

Don't forget that he also has to work on Pathfinder: The Dragon's Demand.

 

[Crispy]

Lacrymas, I only just now actually clicked on your image to see the second screen, and it indeed looks like you've got the extra dialogue choices that I would assume are added by TonyK. Are you saying you're running the TonyK mod in your HotU? If so, how the heck did you get it to work?

You're on EE, right?

Edit: Just to sate my OCD, I performed a fresh installation of EE, deleted everything NWN-related in My Documents, also the NWN Steam folder, then reinstalled. I then reinstalled TonyK wizard version using NIT, loaded my save from DoIWD, still no new dialogue options. I then tried the manual method, same thing. No dice. LITERALLY.

 

[Crispy]

Zarala uses X0 in Swordflight (at least Ch.1 and 2). Sharalyn uses HF in TotM, which is DoD's wrapped NW_AC, which calls... X0. Most modules, official and fan-made, fall back in some capacity to X0_INC_HENAI

Most of this is Greek to me. Are you implying that Luke could conceivably "fix" DoIWD's henchman A.I. by simply choosing a different A.I. package for each of them?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I find Luke's lack of responses lately in this thread to be disturbing.

See what I did there? "Luke"?

Meh, pretty lukewarm post.

 

[Gargaune]

Most of this is Greek to me. Are you implying that Luke could conceivably "fix" DoIWD's henchman A.I. by simply choosing a different A.I. package for each of them?

No, quite the opposite, I'm saying that Swordflight, TotM and - very likely - DoIWD all use the same AI package to determine when to switch weapons. There are different flags and functions between the various iterations, but if a henchman can switch weapons, the calculation of when to do it is gonna be the same. If it's the same algorithm, the difference has to the variables - I suspect gear and build may be why you're seeing henchmen behave differently. It is possible that DoIWD uses a different AI script altogether, but I highly doubt it.


Also, regarding your TonyK problems, the descriptions says "compatible fan-made modules" and the manual elaborates:

Spoiler

------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------USING THESE MODS WITH CUSTOM CAMPAIGNS--------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

There are two possibilities discussed in this section:

1) You downloaded a custom module that doesn't incorporate my work,
and want to add my mods to this custom module.

2) You are a builder and want to add my mods to your game, so that
they work for the end users whether they have downloaded my mods
separately or not.

****You want to add my mods to an existing module you downloaded****

In this case, the Battle AI will work properly with the campaign if
the builder did not modify the default henchman scripts. If the builder
did modify the default henchman scripts, the Battle AI may or may not
work properly. Inventory control will not work unless you put it in
by hand. Here is a list of what to try:

a) Just play the module with my mods installed in the override,
and without making any changes whatsoever to the custom module.
The Battle AI will be active, but not the inventory control or
AI tweaking or anything else that is done via dialog.
NOTE: this is a good way to test whether the campaign you
downloaded is "compatible" with my stuff. If you experience
any abnormal or undesired behavior while playing in this way,
the module you downloaded is probably incompatible with my work.

b) If you want to add inventory control, open the module with the
toolset, and open the conversation trees of the henchmen. Follow
the dialog tree instructions at the end of this section. Do
not rebuild, recompile, edit, or change any scripts in any way
whatsoever. Doing so will break the module. Just edit the
conversation trees, and nothing else. Do not ever click on an
"Edit" button.

TL;DR - The reason Lacrymas has those dialogue controls is because Tony overrode the conversations in the official campaigns. There's no "generic" henchman dialogue, either the module author put it in or you have to do it yourself (which for DoIWD will be complicated if you're not familiar with the Toolset).

The good news, however, is that if I'm right that DoIWD's using standard AI packages, the combat AI should work for you. I've never used TonyK's AI so I don't know what you should look for, but if you do, you can just try it out and see if it behaves like you expect.