The cRPG UI thread (Wiz-clones agenda thread)

[aweigh]

Sure. My all time favorite game which I believe is infinitely replayable and features a better UI than any game released in the last 15 years is Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord for the NEC PC-98 or the IBM PC.

I like any game which emulates that game. It just so happens that the western PC industry no longer makes games like this; only the japanese do and they release on console.

If you don't think Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord from 1987 is _genuinely a better RPG than almost any RPG released after it_ then you will not like anything I recommend.

 

[Roqua]

Sure. My all time favorite game which I believe is infinitely replayable and features a better UI than any game released in the last 15 years is Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord for the NEC PC-98 or the IBM PC.

I like any game which emulates that game. It just so happens that the western PC industry no longer makes games like this; only the japanese do and they release on console.

If you don't think Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord from 1987 is _genuinely a better RPG than almost any RPG released after it_ then you will not like anything I recommend.

A game from 1987 of course has a 1987 interface. Modern games shouls have a modern GUI and functionality. That is inarguable.

I like the combat in the older Wizardries. I also like it more in 6-8 where the chardev became better. And the games entered into the crpg market.

I also 100% agree with your repeated statement that dungeons should be not obtuse, but you will not address the first dungeon in Elminage Gothic. This first level (the one I cleared) is the very definition of obtuse. Compare that to the first dungeon for a new party in Wiz8, or even better the first dungeon in Wizards & Warriors (or even Dungeon Lords). These dungeons are infinitely more sensible, fun, engaging, presented better, and are clearly not obtuse.

What I am asking you for is a good example of a modern dungeon crawler that has good chargen, chardev, and dungeons (as well as towns and shops and shit). Emlinage Gothic has the chargen and dev, but the dungeons are not good judging from their premier dungeon which could literally be the dictionary definition of obtuse. Also, the UI is just retarded. There has to be a better example. Something crpg fans who love full party creation can find palatable. Grimlock isn't a good example since it has no shops and the dungeons are extremely obtuse.

Just to recap - I absolutely love full party creation, complex and meaty rpg systems with interesting chardev with a lot of choices, good itemization (and not shit itemization like the Dragon Age games), and fun and engaging dungeons and combat.

You are saying the games you like specialize in this. I am asking for a good example since Elminage Gothic has a 1982 interface and shit dungeons of obtuse shit. What game has good dungeons and shops that is modern and you feel best represents the dungeon crawler genre?

 

[aweigh]

i think wizardry 1 has a better interface than age of decadence.

 

[an Administrator]

I think Lucas9 has a lot to say about this!

 

[Kaucukovnik]

I'm definitely biased, but I'll bite.

If we are talking interface, it doesn't matter which game made what possible. The only criteria is "what is easier to do within specific interface". I dare you to state a single activity that is actually easier to achieve within W1 interface compared to W8.

Honestly, I don't get this. Do you hate mice?

 

[Excidium II]

Honestly, I don't get this. Do you hate mice?

Yes.

 

[ThisNameIsFree]

W1 minimalistic and interface reflect it.
Looking at it again i say some things can be improved for sure. For example if it's been possible to assign default actions to characters you could finish many trash battles by pressing one button.
Changing gear between chars always been messy.

 

[aweigh]

I'm definitely biased, but I'll bite.

If we are talking interface, it doesn't matter which game made what possible. The only criteria is "what is easier to do within specific interface". I dare you to state a single activity that is actually easier to achieve within W1 interface compared to W8.

Honestly, I don't get this. Do you hate mice?

For starters? Combat.

/won.thread

 

[Sigourn]

I t hink different games benefit from vastly different interfaces. But most UIs should always try to do the following things:

- Be clear
- Be simple and not redudant
- Offer the player as much help as they can without becoming too cluttered
- Try to give the player something they didn't know they needed in their life

That said... I think the BEST UI I've seen so far in any cRPG is that of the latest update of Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition.

- It's clear.
- It's simple. It's not redundant.
- Offers many many useful information for the player, including but not limited to: what will your stats be after you equip or remove certain piece of equipment; shows all of your important stats in one single screen; allows us to toggle between different sheets with different stats. In the original game, a huge amount of information was distributed between the inventory UI and the character sheet, making for annoying back and forth flipping of UIs.
- And finally: I love the new area map transition. It's cool, it's pretty.

One thing I don't like is the health bars, mostly from an aesthetic standpoint (since it's logical for me that you can sort of guess how long it takes for something to die by just looking at it), but thankfully those are TOGGLEABLE.

 

[Roqua]

Some of my favorite games are the buck rogers games for the PC, and I have a really hard time going back to them now because of the interface and how time intensive it is just to switch equipment. The game Devil's Whisky could have been awesome if the creator put just a little effort into the UI.

Once you have played games with normal UIs it is hard to go back to caveman technology that predates computers and probably even games. Lists are for consoles and consoles are the enemy of civilization. I strongly believe anyone who plugs a controller into a PC should be shot. Yes, I truly believe they deserve death. Because of these monkey-savages and their console controllers and console games I get stuck with 100k BC list for inventories and have to spend most of a game fucking around with the interface trying to do simple shit instead of playing the fucking game and doing actual fun shit.

I am a man of science and I believe in science and the technological innovations GUIs have given crpg fans since pre-SVGA times.

Liking controller UIs is like preferring to hunt for your food during your lunch time at work instead of buying it, or liking to make your own clothes from scratch instead of buying them. Science, technology, innovation, equal rights, space age polymers, science, civilization, space ships, laser beams, progress. These are good things. Savagery and being a monkey-savage isn't good. Using list inventories and controllers is like still believing in slavery and conking a women on the head and dragging her back to your cave is an appropriate marriage ritual.

You can hop onboard the train to the civilization and join us, or play with your Coleco vision yo-yo technology games like a fucking caveman holding on to your controller with your 15 steps to switch equipment between party members.

 

[Space Insect]

I t hink different games benefit from vastly different interfaces. But most UIs should always try to do the following things:

- Be clear
- Be simple and not redudant
- Offer the player as much help as they can without becoming too cluttered
- Try to give the player something they didn't know they needed in their life

That said... I think the BEST UI I've seen so far in any cRPG is that of the latest update of Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition.

- It's clear.
- It's simple. It's not redundant.
- Offers many many useful information for the player, including but not limited to: what will your stats be after you equip or remove certain piece of equipment; shows all of your important stats in one single screen; allows us to toggle between different sheets with different stats. In the original game, a huge amount of information was distributed between the inventory UI and the character sheet, making for annoying back and forth flipping of UIs.
- And finally: I love the new area map transition. It's cool, it's pretty.

One thing I don't like is the health bars, mostly from an aesthetic standpoint (since it's logical for me that you can sort of guess how long it takes for something to die by just looking at it), but thankfully those are TOGGLEABLE.

If you are talking about the BGEE 2.0 UI, then you must use a white tipped cane with which to walk with.

Otherwise, I agree, BG did have a pretty good interface and it did have some wonderful aesthetic choices.

 

[Sigourn]

If you are talking about the BGEE 2.0 UI, then you must use a white tipped cane with which to walk with.

Otherwise, I agree, BG did have a pretty good interface and it did have some wonderful aesthetic choices.

I think BGEE's UI is pretty nice except for the black theme it's got going on. I wish that was optional, I actually like BG's carved-in-stone interface better than the EE's UIs.

Anyhow, it's a great UI. The only criticism I have at the moment is that it would be nice if item descriptions were spread over two sheets: 1) Stats and 2) Description. That way it would be far easier to compare different items.

 

[Kem0sabe]

One of the best modern rpg Ui experiences for me is that of underrail, lack of map notwithstanding.

One of the worse has to be wasteland 2, which is an unmitigated piece of design shit.

In terms of classics, I'm very partial to the IE games, as they managed to capture the setting perfectly while allowing the player quick access to the most important game functions.

 

[Sigourn]

One of the worse has to be wasteland 2, which is an unmitigated piece of design shit.

I think Wasteland 2's UI could use a lot of work. It's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. The new buy/sell interface mechanics are awful (not being able to buy many things at once? really?), the worst of which is definitely "double click to buy or sell", which sometimes misfires and I end up buying two things or selling two things as well.

It's overly designed as well instead of streamlined, and Fallout 1 showed us you can have a post-apocalyptic UI without the need of a shitload of wires coming out of everything.

And the typewriter thing at the bottom... it's just awful.

 

[Roqua]

I honestly think people that say the IE games are focusing on aesthetics instead of functionality. Also, WL2 has a great UI, and was easy to do everything you wanted to do with little to no hassle, which is a big deal since this is a 3d game instead of a far more civilized 2d game.

People seem to complain about things based on the superficial instead of functionality. What, specifically, did the WL2 GUI not do well?

 

[Kem0sabe]

I honestly think people that say the IE games are focusing on aesthetics instead of functionality. Also, WL2 has a great UI, and was easy to do everything you wanted to do with little to no hassle, which is a big deal since this is a 3d game instead of a far more civilized 2d game.

People seem to complain about things based on the superficial instead of functionality. What, specifically, did the WL2 GUI not do well?

Its slow, its ugly, tho the slow part was partially fixed by the EE handling of skills.

 

[Roqua]

I honestly think people that say the IE games are focusing on aesthetics instead of functionality. Also, WL2 has a great UI, and was easy to do everything you wanted to do with little to no hassle, which is a big deal since this is a 3d game instead of a far more civilized 2d game.

People seem to complain about things based on the superficial instead of functionality. What, specifically, did the WL2 GUI not do well?

Its slow, its ugly, tho the slow part was partially fixed by the EE handling of skills.

Ugly means nothing and is subjective. I had no issue with skill use in the non-EE edition. You just hot bared them and no issue for me at least

Slow compared to what? Kotor 1 or 2, Dragon Age 1-3, FO 3, NV, 4, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Gothic 1 - whatever, etc? It is defeintly far faster than the pixel hunting slow ass looting of the non EE IE games, as well as 1 million times more functional and customizable.

You can't say the IE games have the best UI when the UI had sucky functionality and sucked just because you found it easy on the yes. Men are supposed to place function over form, not the reverse.

But I agree, the 2.0 patch finally made BG a game that isn't a huge hassle to play. It is far from good, and even farther from the much more advanced GUI of WL2, but is much, much improved in functionality and ease of use.

 

[Space Insect]

How did the IE UI have sucky functionality? And how can you believe that the 2.0 patch made it better?

 

[Curlt]

Love me some green slime.

 

[aweigh]

That's how you make a UI. Please keep your mice at home. Real men only use a keyboard.

 

[Roqua]

How did the IE UI have sucky functionality? And how can you believe that the 2.0 patch made it better?

The remap keys function sucked, the looting was a huge hassle, no sensible hotbars. Turn search on every second was a pain. Selling was a pain. Buying was a pain. What functionality did it have? Nothing.

I am not particularly knocking the UI of the IE games since there wasn't good UIs back then with normal functionality like we have now in most games not made for console. Now, forget looks and aesthetics, and take PoE's GUI. It did everything well and was extrememly simple and functional. Looting was easy, shopping easy, doing anything was easy. Same with D:OS, same with WL2. Same with Underrail. Sadly, VD likes does not value UI functionality and AoD did not have much to be lauded such as no rebinds, no simple anything. It is like Aweigh's kind of UI.

That's how you make a UI. Please keep your mice at home. Real men only use a keyboard.

That sure is how you made a UI in 1987. But thanks to advances in technology and EGA-VGA-SVGA-graphics cards, we can upgrade from a UI to a GUI. You are basically advocating for outdated shit like ASCII graphics and saying ASCII is the best. Also, that UI articulates two things - Wiz1 was a very shallow game lacking the complexity of later Wizardry offerings, and the player of that game is a big cheater.

I like depth. I like complexity (in the game and rpg systems, not fucking equipping something or trading something between characters). I like robust systems with some meat and manual as thick as the accents in Starpoint Gemini. I like the opposite of shallow, rpg-lite games with no systems, no content, and no depth to the game, and the only challenge provided is navigating the fucking UI.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

I'm definitely biased, but I'll bite.

If we are talking interface, it doesn't matter which game made what possible. The only criteria is "what is easier to do within specific interface". I dare you to state a single activity that is actually easier to achieve within W1 interface compared to W8.

Honestly, I don't get this. Do you hate mice?

For starters? Combat.

/won.thread

And here we go. That is CONTENT. The UI itself is a different story. W1 has you select the same actions again and again, while W8 has the last attack type pre-selected and you only need to touch anything if you want someone to do something different this turn.
Put 8's UI in 1 and the combat will be faster. If you replaced 8's UI with 1's, it would be even slower.

Try again.

 

[aweigh]

yeah you've said the same thing before. we have different definitions of what constitutes depth in an rpg. hell, we have different definitions of what makes for a complex RPG.

see, to me wizardry 1 is probably the least shallow RPG ever made. it has zero frills, i.e. almost no story, almost no NPCs to talk to, only 1 shop, and 1 "town" that you access only thru menus: i.e. it is PERFECT. it only features 100% content, and 0% filler.

almost every rpg that's not from the dungeon crawler sub-genre bombards you with shit that isn't gameplay. you obviously like modern pseudo-RPGs that feature "filler" stuff like npcs, quests, wandering between areas, etc. i.e. stuff that is not gameplay. yes, it's "content", but it's not gameplay.

i prefer RPGs like wizardry 1 and all those of similar ilk: a pure and concentrated dose of gameplay (huge mazes, layered and meaningful combat system, rich mechanics like a full suite of magic schools, enemy types, afflictions, status abnormalities; a very deep and seemingly endless amount of itemization that the game is built around, etc. you know, gameplay.

from what i gather it seems you should try your hand at the Adventure Game genre, seems more your speed.

 

[aweigh]

And here we go. That is CONTENT. The UI itself is a different story. W1 has you select the same actions again and again, while W8 has the last attack type pre-selected and you only need to touch anything if you want someone to do something different this turn.
Put 8's UI in 1 and the combat will be faster. If you replaced 8's UI with 1's, it would be even slower.

Try again.

what you just said doesn't make sense. both w1 and w8 feature an auto-battle system, and in fact w1's is faster than w8's. (hint: it's called ENTER).

however in w1 you would die very quickly if you blindly auto-battled. and btw, you are wrong about "content"; we are talking about UIs. here is the w1 UI when in a battle:

so i don't know what you're talking about. please make sense next time.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

however in w1 you would die very quickly if you blindly auto-battled.

That's because it's no auto battle system, you are just mashing through it.

What i mean by content vs UI is this: Enemy animations and the way they are integrated in the world =/= interface. You could very well have a wireframe game with enemies popping out of nowhere and without animations, but use graphical interface instead of text one.
I don't think this is so hard concept to grasp, so I'll assume you don't want to understand anything. Older is better, just because. Either you grew up with them, or you are just being oldschool edgy.