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The current state of CRPGs is a failure of the free market

hicksman

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
164
I was thinking the other day that its just that we gamers who have been in the mix since before gaming was mainstream have already tired of superficial games because we've been playing for 10/20 years.

Now that gaming is mainstream, perhaps its a matter of waiting 10 years until the mainstream gamers are tired of superficial shit. THEN the mainstream will have more deep games that we've been craving.

possible?
 
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hicksman said:
I was thinking the other day that its just that we gamers who have been in the mix since before gaming was mainstream have already tired of superficial games because we've been playing for 10/20 years.

Now that gaming is mainstream, perhaps its a matter of waiting 10 years until the mainstream gamers are tired of superficial shit. THEN the mainstream will have more deep games that we've been craving.

possible?

No, more like todays superficial shit will be considered harcore and deep in 10 years (vide: The legendary status of KOTOR as a hardcore game amongst younger gamers/rpg noobs/faggots in general) and the new games will become even more superficial and stupid.
 

DarkSign

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The problem, my friends, is with those of us who really care about such games. If there were one or two of us, who were financially successful in other arenas (besides gaming) who would not only stake their fortune on moving into games, but would actually make several decent games...then the system would get bucked.

Said another way, until someone who is outside the current production/publishing cycle finances and makes successful games of this type, things will never change.

So this is your call to arms! Find a rich mofo that likes our type of games and convince him to switch careers! Or find someone that can get you financed with 10 million or so and do it yourself.
 

Destroid

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May 9, 2007
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10 million? Isn't the whole problem with games (as with movies) that rising costs cause everything to turn to shit due to risk averse behavoir from publishers, which also drives small companies out of the industry?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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TalesfromtheCrypt said:
hicksman said:
I was thinking the other day that its just that we gamers who have been in the mix since before gaming was mainstream have already tired of superficial games because we've been playing for 10/20 years.

Now that gaming is mainstream, perhaps its a matter of waiting 10 years until the mainstream gamers are tired of superficial shit. THEN the mainstream will have more deep games that we've been craving.

possible?

No, more like todays superficial shit will be considered harcore and deep in 10 years (vide: The legendary status of KOTOR as a hardcore game amongst younger gamers/rpg noobs/faggots in general) and the new games will become even more superficial and stupid.

Is that even possible?
I mean, even more retarted than Oblivion's quest compass and gaming systems where you can't die?
 

Gold

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Dead State Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
Oh course, the ultra shiny True-Lifetm 3d Jesus Christ with his triforce of godhood and blade of sinner slaying marching across the narrow streets of (pick your city) for his awaited date with the anti-christ/hated minority/George Bush III.

Coming to a PS4 near you.
 

DOS-fanboy

Novice
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
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Bradylama said:
I blame the 90's. The loose definition of roleplaying that apologists made to justify why FF7 is an RPG destroyed any semblance of benchmarks for the genre.

That statement is so beautiful it made me cry.

I'm printing out that post and poking a hole through the paper.
 

Saxon1974

Prophet
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May 20, 2007
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The Desert Wasteland
I keep thinking that some small company is going to start a great "true" rpg franchise ala ultima and shake the RPG world up with it.

At least that is my dream. There has to be enough RPG fans out there to make it work. Look at all the Ultima and fallout die hards still around today even though those games are quite old.

Although I feel the same way about the rock music scene and that is not happening either......

Why are peopel getting nostalgic over 70's and 80's rock acts that are all touring now? Because there is no good music that they like for the most part.

I think its the same reason many people are getting nostalgic about old RPG games, because the kind the true RPG fans want just arent being made anymore. Thats true for me, I have been playing all kinds of RPG's I played years ago because there is nothing out there that satisfies my RPG fix now.

Aren't about the 2 worst words you can read "Action\RPG"?!@#!@#!@#

HELP ANYBODY! DONT LET TRUE RPG die completely! :x
 

Misanthrope

Novice
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
26
Re: The current state of CRPGs is a failure of the free mark

kingcomrade said:
The current state of cRPGs is that devs are making the games that most of the market is willing to pay for using the means (hype, advertising, media whoring) that are most cost effective to providing huge sales. That might suck for the small minority looking for challenging and interesting games, but the free market doesn't exist to provide everyone with everything they want. It would be like saying that you go to a tourist gift shop in Colorado and you can't find any with Chinese names, just John, Jason, Ashley, and Jessica, and thus the free market is a failure.

For starters your example is flawed: Cultural dominance is a direct consequence of free market economy, which in turns destroys local culture and we have been seeing this over and over again for the last century or so and that would be a fair analogy. So in the case of your example it would be more accurate to point out how more and more people in Asian countries gravitate towards western culture, starting from the bourgeois and petit bourgeois but quickly going down to even the proletarian as Free Trade Agreements ( like the one proposed to an overly westernized country South Korea ) make it easy to introduce western products to all sections of their civilization.

Your example merely points out a completely and unrelated situation which is immigration and minorities beign excluded. While many of the causes of immigration could also be theoretically be tied to free market economies it is beyond the scope of the current discussion.

Other than that in your argument you clearly say that free market does not need a quality product to be competitive because the added value from areas that are 100% independent from the actual creative process ( media, marketing, hype, etc. ) can wield more profits at a more cost effective rate than making an original, entertaining, quality product.

The simple nature of the CRPG genre of old ( focusing on quality of gameplay ) its less cost effective than the modern "rpg" ( Bethesda, Bioware, etc. ). And it works right down to the basis of the genre: 3D graphics are not necessarily of better image quality than 2D images, but is more cost effective to do math calculations and add textures than to hand draw backgrounds. Voice acting is a more cost effective way of captivating an audience than talented writers taking a long time to do vasts amounts of dialogue lines all of top notch quality. Interesting a player with instant gratification like items, combat and endless rewards is far more cost effective than interesting a player with a deep, complex character generation system, captivating stories, interesting quests, etc.

Does that means that a truly great CRPG with incredible quality would not be successful today? Quite simply no, it would be tremendously successful. So much so that it would easily return the same amount of profits than a run-of-the-mill-diablo-clone would and even more. It just requires a bigger degree of commitment from the developers and producers. That is not acceptable in a free market economy: taking a low risk, quick and sure revenue with moderate sales maximizing profit margins by cutting costs is more successful ( hence the success of monsters like EA ).

The fact that free market directly impacts quality is reason enough to say the decline in quality of games, including the current state of CRPG is a direct consequence of the free market economy. Is not a "minority" that wants quality product, everybody wants a quality product. The fact that one is not easily available is because the profit margins are riskier and none of the infamous "suits" want to take those risks.
 

Oarfish

Prophet
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
2,511
everybody wants a quality product

And that quality is for the most part subjective. See Oblivions reception by your average gamer.

The problem is not the nature of markets per se but rather the nature of the product. We cannot expect mainstream games to not cater to the perceived (and almost certainly very well measured) interests of the mainstream. 'Rockstar' producers like Moleneux used to provide me with some hope but after a litany of disappointments that's pretty much over. Will Wright is pretty much the last hope for that, and though Spore's ambition is remarkable the coherence of the game play is something of a worry. And even a seemingly genuine attempt to progress the medium like Spore is a million miles away from the game play elements that the codex desires in RPGs.

Our only real hope is to support indie development, by actually buying their product and contributing in the production stage to games that interest us. Developments in software tools and the availability of components should allow part timers and small teams to exceed the level of technical sophistication in the perfectly adequate games of a decade or so ago with far less effort.
 

Misanthrope

Novice
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
26
Oarfish said:
everybody wants a quality product
And that quality is for the most part subjective. See Oblivions reception by your average gamer.

Bad example: gender bending and focusing on FPS audiences ( the main audience of Oblivion trust me ) takes "quality" out of the equation. As an FPS hybrid its quality is superb.

As for quality being subjective I agree that it is subjective, hence we have so many different "genres" around to appeal to different concepts of quality. But without having products that assets their efforts to different areas of the game development you cannot really judge what the audience wants since it does not has the ability to choose.

And since your choices become limited what the audience might define as "quality", even if subjective, is flawed since its impaired in its decision making process by virtue of not having true choices to begin with.

Now if you were to talk about "Fallout 2 vs Ultima VI" or even "old CRPGS vs old Turn based strategy" then the concept of quality would indeed become subjective but not without a fair even ground.
 

Oarfish

Prophet
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
2,511
hence we have so many different "genres" around to appeal to different concepts of quality

And as the market has expanded and the cost of production sky rocketed some genres have more or less fallen by the wayside one after the other and had some of their features absorbed into more popular forms. Adventure, true strategy and war games, space and flight simulation and the hardcore RPG are now either gone, monopolised or only catered to by niche developers.
 

Misanthrope

Novice
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
26
Production costs are relative to the economy and over the spawn of 10, 15 or even 20 years that economies, not to mention the size of the gaming market and its reach, are radically different. Other than that you got things that are not part of the developing process at all like marketing, distribution, etc.

I am personally not convinced of the "its too expensive nowdays" argument. As costs rise so does the technology readily available but the design of the gameplay features have stayed relatively the same instead of putting that "extra budget" and new technologies towards innovative, more interactive gameplay: it goes straight into "Nvidia vs ATI".

I can think of a million things that I could do with things like dual core processors, infinitely large amounts of space, super fast internet connections and so on. Not only that simply translated that budget and technology more manpower and better coordination of it could create radically different games that what we see today. But the rewards of being "prettier" on a tried and true formula are the safe bets and thats what counts at the end of the day, not true improvement.
 

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