From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[pakoito]

This. Mainly to compare. I'm very curious if DeS and DS1 greatness is due to Miyazaki or if From always produced great games and Miyazaki just improved on them a bit.

They absolutely made great games before Miyazaki and Souls. Of all Fromsoft games I have played to completion (all Souls, all King's Field, all Echo Night, both Shadow Tower) I think King's Field IV, along with the original Dark Souls, is one of the finest. I will go as far as to say that, were KFIV a PC title and more widely known, it would be part of the Codex canon alongside Looking Glass Studios classics whose great level and world design KFIV is equal to.

I should also note that KFIV has the best "fast-travel" system of any pseudo-open world game I've ever played. It rewards exploration and discovery of secrets, and there's even a bit of thought and strategy in how to use it. Souls games adopted many things from King's Field (including a modified flask system), and I think it's such a shame that this one thing that they haven't borrowed.

http://wiki.pcsx2.net/index.php/King's_Field:_The_Ancient_City

Not being playable on an emulator doesn't help either.

 

[Gentle Player]

This. Mainly to compare. I'm very curious if DeS and DS1 greatness is due to Miyazaki or if From always produced great games and Miyazaki just improved on them a bit.

They absolutely made great games before Miyazaki and Souls. Of all Fromsoft games I have played to completion (all Souls, all King's Field, all Echo Night, both Shadow Tower) I think King's Field IV, along with the original Dark Souls, is one of the finest. I will go as far as to say that, were KFIV a PC title and more widely known, it would be part of the Codex canon alongside Looking Glass Studios classics whose great level and world design KFIV is equal to.

I should also note that KFIV has the best "fast-travel" system of any pseudo-open world game I've ever played. It rewards exploration and discovery of secrets, and there's even a bit of thought and strategy in how to use it. Souls games adopted many things from King's Field (including a modified flask system), and I think it's such a shame that this one thing that they haven't borrowed.

http://wiki.pcsx2.net/index.php/King's_Field:_The_Ancient_City

Not being playable on an emulator doesn't help either.

I recently played through the game via pcsx2 and had only one issue - https://youtu.be/XQuTx-7PlwA?t=1m30s. Bloody annoying, but the workaround mentioned on that wiki link (setting "EE mode" to negative in emulator settings, then reverting it back to normal after passing through the door) did the job for me.

 

[cvv]

One more thing - the PvP covenants.

The way DS1 does PvP generally is brilliant, unfortunately the PvP covenants are a complete shitfest for new/casual players so many years after launch. I like an occassional PvP, I don't mind being invaded, problem is I stand absolutely no chance against most players I run into. I played with the Hunter covenant yesterday for a few hours and I won twice - once by accident (he fought NPCs, didn't see me, got backstabbed), once in a great fight. I never got a chance to win the third match and get the Fog Ring. I was SL 76 and I kept invading a SL 544 havel mage (you can see their level in the Connectivity Mod). I never waited more than a minute for a fight which is awesome for a game this old but the level matching system is kindda screwed up. Again, DS3 overfixed that by setting it so narrowly you never ever get a match in the wolf covenant.

Then again you can get most covenant rewards by farming the crow demons/basilisks so it's prolly not a problem. I just wanna bitch.

 

[Elwro]

Go to undead burg. 'Normal' PvP is still going on there and is fun even if you don't have a PvP build and lack the ridiculous skills.

Also, I got best results in PvP with a zweihander with no lock-on; won more than lost, and I really suck at pvp

 

[Sentinel]

What's with the hate for post-lord vessel level design in DS1? Yes, it's no longer as cleverly interconnected, big deal. From a traditional gameplay POV though? Just as diverse and interesting as the rest.

I don't understand it either. Only Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith is bad. Tomb of the Giants is excellent, and Duke's Archives and New Londo are perfectly good. I think the first half of the game is still better overall, but the latter is not terrible as people make out.

Reused enemies
Shit bosses (reused ones as well)
Level design is pretty much a straight line forward
No interesting loot
Boring looking

TotG is a massive pain as well the first couple times through. Unless you memorize the layout of the level, it's really bad to navigate, and those fucking huge dog skeletons are major faggots. At least it has a cool questline in it.
Duke's Archives is ok at best.
New Londo is a good area, but the ghosts generally suck any enjoyment you might have out of it, and the boss is nothing but a DPS race (ie shit).

 

[Elwro]

I find the ghosts OK. And you can always go there as cursed ;-) The boss, though? I agree. I expected something a lot more interesting at that location. I also always get the urge to take the Witch, just to have company in the darkness... but then it's more difficult

 

[Ash]

DS2 can only be liked for gameplay and PvP, liking it for anything else is literally a psychological disorder

Pretty sure DS2 hate while liking DS1 is literally a psychological disorder: The bane of the mindless cuck sheep. One that follows the crowd without thinking for themselves just because they saw some others say it.

The geniusness of DS1 level design is not just in that it's interconnected. It's also the vibe, the way it makes you feel.

Standard stuff, even outside of JRPGs. wRPGs sometimes also have brooding atmosphere. Arx Fatalis immediately comes to mind. But as for JRPG/J action games alone, well I recently just replayed Ninja Gaiden (2004). The Ice Cavern, Hyabusa Village Return. the aquaduct, all pretty heavy levels. But if you're used to playing bland wRPG shit like Mass Effect that don't have much of anything resembling level design at all I can imagine how Souls can easily jump up to your #1.

Reused enemies
Shit bosses (reused ones as well)
Level design is pretty much a straight line forward
No interesting loot
Boring looking

Reused enemies: can't say it got to a point that I found it bothersome, but I acknowledge it's a problem/could be better.
Shit bosses: granted.
Level design: still good and varied level design imo, and not the worst offender in linearity. Anor Londo Exterior for example is literally linear, with the only branching path being ones that go to new locations and are typically inaccessible at first (Duke's Archives, Painted World ).
No interesting loot: I don't recall. Been some years since I've played the game mind you because there are plenty other great games out there.
Boring looking: disagree. Highly subjective thing though.

 

[Ash]

I'd love to check out the older FROM titles. However, on PCs you can use DosBox etc, but I have no idea how to proceed with the older console games. Could anyone give me some pointers?

Skip 'em. Kings Field is painfully average, as was their contribution to the once stellar Tenchu series which they ruined (RIP). FROM surprised me with Souls because I never thought they had what it takes to be top tier devs before that.
Instead start with Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (1997) if you want to explore Japanese console action RPG classics. Don't be put off by the fact it is 2D. It has great depth and a good well earned reputation. Go in with an open mind.

They absolutely made great games before Miyazaki and Souls. Of all Fromsoft games I have played to completion (all Souls, all King's Field, all Echo Night, both Shadow Tower) I think King's Field IV, along with the original Dark Souls, is one of the finest. I will go as far as to say that, were KFIV a PC title and more widely known, it would be part of the Codex canon alongside Looking Glass Studios classics whose great level and world design KFIV is equal to.

Lol what? The Kings Field series could never stand alongside the design ingenuity of Looking Glass classics. There are console games besides Dark Souls I'd add to the codex list and Kings Field series isn't one of them.

 

[an Administrator]

I played this game for around 12 hours. My final conclusion is that this game is SHIT.
1: Tutorial is crap. Doesn't teach you how the shit works.
2: Classes are basically meaningless, you can have access to all weapons and spells if you invest some points here and there.
3: Too much emphasis on player's abilities instead of character's. Just buy a heater shield and you are blocking all attacks. Dodge, roll, block, hit, rinse and repeat.
4: Controls are TERRIBLE. Especially the target-lock system.

 

[Ash]

I played this game for around 12 hours. My final conclusion is that this game is SHIT.
1: Tutorial is crap. Doesn't teach you how the shit works.
2: Classes are basically meaningless, you can have access to all weapons and spells if you invest some points here and there.
3: Too much emphasis on player's abilities instead of character's. Just buy a heater shield and you are blocking all attacks. Dodge, roll, block, hit, rinse and repeat.
4: Controls are TERRIBLE. Especially the target-lock system.

1. The tutorial is plenty good enough. You do remember games didn't used to have built-in tutorials and you had to read a manual or go with pure trial and error, right?
2. Classes only exist to define starting stats and equipment, and from there you can branch out as you please. This is in no way a bad thing and plenty great RPGs offer classless leveling but initial choices determining base stats, e.g Fallout or System Shock 2.
3. lol. Bad thing why?
4. Controls are fine, except tying jump to sprinting. Can't say I am a huge fan of lock-on combat either but you can opt not to use it.

 

[KILLER BEAR]

^Mate DS is primarily an action game, of course the emphasis is on player's skills lmao. For the controls just get a gamepad.

 

[Elwro]

Can you not use lock on and still meaningfully use spells? [I tried and failed]

 

[Ash]

Nah not really, unfortunately. You can aim on yaw axis but not pitch. sucks balls.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

The original Demons Souls was pretty great.
Dark Souls 1 was the best in the souls series.
DS2 was meh, but still enjoyable.
DS3 was banal and boring. -> I couldnt bring myself to finish it.

Does anyone else feel that way or is it just me?

 

[Elwro]

I thought almost all people who played all the games felt that way. In my case the only difference is that while I finished DS3, I haven't bought the expansion(s).

 

[Sentinel]

I think it goes DS3>DS1>shit>DS2.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

The original Demons Souls was pretty great.
Dark Souls 1 was the best in the souls series.
DS2 was meh, but still enjoyable.
DS3 was banal and boring. -> I couldnt bring myself to finish it.

Does anyone else feel that way or is it just me?

No, nobody on the internet has ever thought the same way as someone else.

 

[Ash]

TotG is a massive pain as well the first couple times through. Unless you memorize the layout of the level, it's really bad to navigate, and those fucking huge dog skeletons are major faggots. At least it has a cool questline in it.

Being difficult to navigate is the point. It's a late game stage, should be a challenge. Same goes for skeleton faggotry. Same also goes for magma everywhere in Lost Izalith and the Ghosts of New Londo. The Four Kings is a shitty boss fight though, no disagreement there. Just tank the fuck out of it. Most of the late game bosses are p. shitty actually, but that's all that truly stands out to me.

 

[Invictus]

To be honest the Duke archives amd Crystal cave are the most "complete" levels after the Lordvessel both from an encounter & area design perpective and probably the best second half of the game area plus Seath is a good is a bit straightforward boss

New Londo is somehow kind of fitting to be so plain and barren and the combat in that area at least makes up in challenge what it doesn't get in level complexity, I like it plus 4 Kings are a good challenge

Tomb of Giants is a very good change of pace and the anxiety from the Dark is a very good way to add a bit of challenge to the late game since everything is pretty much balanced to be at the same challenge level
Nito is a fun boss and one that definetly helps to prepare for by having a holy weapon

Demon Ruins... things begin to go downhill with copy pasted enemies and very straightforward level design, the combat with the demons is ok and makes you feel good that boss enemies now show up as regular enemies
Firesage is ok and different enough from Asylum Demon to merrit the recoloring
Centipede demon is annoying but managable so no complaints there

Lava level in Lost Izilith is fucking boring, the dino buts are lame and the whole trek in lava could have been cut in half and nobody would have complained, that area really showed that the level design was done before the actual logic to the level itself and they ran out of enemies to populate those areas.... hell maybe even replacing the dragon butts with some black knights and some demons would have been cool or even having batwing demons divebombing you while you ran in the lava anything but stupid dino butts
And finally Lost Izilith proper, while places like the undead burg feel lived in as does to a certain extent New Londo, Lost Izilith felt like the most video gamey of the levels in the game, again with boooring enemies and boooring level design
Finally Bed of Bullshit... that is the worst boss in the whole series bevause it feels cheap, they could have made it challenging but fair maybe having to destroy the hands before approaching the body or something but the whole collapsing floor schtick feels incredibly cheap and lazy

I am actually curious why exactly they didnt patch that up, adding a few more unique enemies for Lost Izilith would have spiced up things a bit at least instead of making the area a chore
I always try to do that last before Gwyn because it is such a bullshit area (even with the Demon ruins shortcut) that it sours me almost to the point of pausing my playthough so by leaving it last I only have to do Gwynn

 

[cvv]

Tomb of Giants is good. Great vibe, good encounter design. Game should've given us more light options tho or lower the Cast Light spell requirement. I did TotG before Izalith with my Priest and going through it just with the scull lantern is such a pain in the ass.

Izalith is bad. Really bad. Prolly the worst area in the series. Terrible design, no vibe, no detail. Bed of Chaos is being shat on but I don't mind gimmicky bosses. If every boss was an aggressive in-your-face sword swinging humanoid it'd be a very sad experience. Just finished the DLC that clearly shows you can make fantastic bosses without making all of them Gwyn-wannabes. Kalameet and Manus (together with Sinh) are my favourite Souls bosses.

 

[Invictus]

Oh man I had a Dark Souls marathon today
Dark Souls
Played with my mage char to farm in the Rootgarden Basin for some Blue Shards from the Golems for my enchanted bow
Did the Dukes Archives with my evil Darkwraith char and yeah Blue Shards kept showing up like candy ffs
Dark Souls 2
Farmed a on Heides Tower of Flame to get enough money to buy the Evil Eye Ring and the Elite Knight set to get ready for the community restart for the game
Dark Souls 3
Was only trying out a Pyromancer,
Absolutely smoked Gundyr and kept playing till I got the Dark Axe from the mimic and then decided to try out how the scaling for pyromancies and Dark weapons were on this game
All in all I didnt advance much on any game, but spent 6 hours basically enjoying myself with some soothing gridning while listeing to my favorite podcast

 

[Elwro]

This is blasphemy; the sounds of the Souls games are integral to them

 

[an Administrator]

I played this game for around 12 hours. My final conclusion is that this game is SHIT.
1: Tutorial is crap. Doesn't teach you how the shit works.
2: Classes are basically meaningless, you can have access to all weapons and spells if you invest some points here and there.
3: Too much emphasis on player's abilities instead of character's. Just buy a heater shield and you are blocking all attacks. Dodge, roll, block, hit, rinse and repeat.
4: Controls are TERRIBLE. Especially the target-lock system.

Well, as i played Dark Souls more, i started to feel that i LOVE this shit game.

 

[Seaking4]

The Post-Anor Londo content isn't so much bad as it is not nearly as good as what came before. I mean obviously the Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith part is terrible but the other three areas are solid to good. Tomb of the Giants is cool albeit slightly gimmicky and the same goes for New Londo. The big 4 bosses are also quite disappointing considering they are built up throughout the game and then they wind up being pretty easy.

The individual levels also get shit on because they abandoned the world interconnectivity.

 

[Emmanuel2]

The Post-Anor Londo content it's so much bad as it is not nearly as good as what came before. I mean obviously the Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith part is terrible but the other three areas are solid to good. Tomb of the Giants is cool albeit slightly gimmicky and the same goes for New Londo. The big 4 bosses are also quite disappointing considering they are built up throughout the game and then they wind up being pretty easy.

The individual levels also get shit on because they abandoned the world interconnectivity.

The 4 big bosses are also disappointingly easy even with a level 1 playthrough. Albeit the 4 kings can prove to be hard but full Havel's + Pyromancy fixed that. The most fun I had, I think, was before finishing Anor Londo and especially in the Peanut butter and Jam boss fight.