From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, Lucerne is nice. It feels a little short, but the move set is so fun.

 

[Arnust]

If you like stopping force and relying more in stunlocking more than pancaking, the Claymore is the jam. It's got a great moveset, range, speed and stats, and is avaleible very soon as well, suicide run best. Sur eis my favourite weapon on DS1. Standard +15, of course.

 

[vdweller]

Currently getting served hot penis by the Ceaseless Discharge

 

[polo]

Currently getting served hot penis by the Ceaseless Discharge

You need to learn how to fight him, it can be a cheese boss, or a gimmick boss. Its pretty lame honestly.

 

[Raghar]

Currently getting served hot penis by the Ceaseless Discharge

You need to learn how to fight him, it can be a cheese boss, or a gimmick boss. Its pretty lame honestly.

Or you can dodge like a boss.

That's how I beat him keyboard only with sword as a mage.

 

[polo]

Currently getting served hot penis by the Ceaseless Discharge

You need to learn how to fight him, it can be a cheese boss, or a gimmick boss. Its pretty lame honestly.

Or you can dodge like a boss.

That's how I beat him keyboard only with sword as a mage.

Idk man he always clipped the shit out of me, i swear most of the times my rolls were perfectly timed and the fucker always clipped me. That was long ago tho, i always cheese him now.

 

[RoSoDude]

Not that anyone cares, but I just did my first playthrough of Dark Souls with the help of the Dark Souls Input Customizer. It has a number of nifty features, chief among them being the implementation of proper mouse+keyboard controls by way of the (included) mouselook mod.

What is this?

Have you ever wanted to open the gesture menu by Left Trigger + Spacebar + Mouse Wheel Down? Now you can! The Dark Souls Input Customizer allows you to bind any action to arbitrary combinations of keys or buttons on the controller, the mouse or the keyboard. Use a simple GUI to create individual input profiles with advanced options, such as separate sensitivities for bow aiming or the usage of of non-standard actions like roll-only. It also includes a complete fix of the mouse controls as well as dedicated support for the Steam Controller.

Overview

Description

The Dark Souls Input Customizer (DSIC) allows full customization of the controls of Dark Souls. It uses an intuitive input system that allows the rebinding of every action to arbitrary combinations of keys or buttons on the controller, mouse or keyboard. Although this can in part also be achieved with existing tools, DSIC is much more flexible and wraps it all up in an easy to use package, with additional functionality that is specially tailored to Dark Souls.

DSIC also fully includes the Dark Souls Mouse Fix, which does not have to be installed separately.

Features

• Allows any action to be bound to an arbitrary combination of keys or buttons on the controller, mouse or keyboard
• Flexible options such as individual sensitivities for camera movement and bow aiming
• Complete fix of the mouse controls with UI cursor support and no additional smoothing or acceleration
• Includes a GUI for easy configuration
• Steam Controller support
• Compatible with DSFix

It's funny -- I read through the first page of this very thread, and there were a number of people espousing the typical view that M+KB just makes no sense for Dark Souls, game isn't designed for it, etc etc. That's obviously true of the PC port, which featured perhaps the worst version of mouselook I've ever experienced (and the original DSMfix unfortunately wasn't much better, since interpolating mouse movement as joystick input leads to negative mouse acceleration) but it isn't true of the actual game design. I'd even go as far as to say that using proper M+KB almost amounts to cheating, as it has several obvious benefits:

• Direct camera input allows for improved navigation especially on precarious cliffs and ledges, as well as improved versatility in combat -- locking onto enemies is now purely optional, as circlestrafing and dodging can be done effectively if not better with ordinary movement. Aiming a bow is now effortless as well.
• No need to claw grip a controller or some other such nonsense to perform any action -- I can attack, aim, dodge, cycle through equipment, and so on without ever moving my hands from their resting position
• Dedicated inputs for kick/dash/jump/leap attack make every option easily accessible in combat

There is only one legitimate drawback, which is that you only have 8-way movement on WASD. I can see why a lot of people might be more comfortable with a gamepad, but that's not an actual advantage, that's just personal preference. As someone far more used to M+KB, I found the game played flawlessly with that control scheme, no worse than any other 3D action game. Pretty much exactly what JarlFrank said years ago.

As for the game itself, I'd say it's probably in my Top 5 games I've ever played. The combat system is simple and punishing, but with a ton of options and ways to create your own playstyle in this roll-playing game. After a few failed attempts to get into the game years ago with a gamepad, I realized I hated blocking because it made me play like a total coward. So this time around, I played the game without ever once blocking, going for a light-rolling Falchion-wielder who relied entirely on dodging and parrying. I ended up leveling INT for some sorceries after I got DEX to the soft cap. I was pretty embarrassed when the Bell Gargoyles gave me a beatdown ~20 times in a row, but then I realized that the entire point of the Undead Parish, from the boss to the proximity to Andre the Blacksmith to the enemy drops is to teach you to upgrade your damn gear! The boss is a rather ingenious DPS check, and I loved that a game actually pushed me to use the upgrade mechanic immediately -- I ignored it because I've played too many games where early investment is a total waste or something that trivializes challenge.

Blighttown was my favorite area in the game by a mile. Tense exploration with delicious verticality and frenetic enemies. I was grinning like a madman the entire way down. I get how this level could be ruined by performance issues, but it's easily some of the best level design on offer. Other highlights were New Londo Ruins (though I wish the lower region had a bonfire), Painted World of Ariamis, and the Oolacile Township in the DLC. I didn't find the base game too challenging after the Bell Gargoyles -- no boss afterwards took me more than three tries until the very end, including Ornstein and Smough who I killed on the third try, taking only one hit of damage. Part of this may have been aided by the fact that I acquired the Dark Wood Grain Ring (changes fast roll to a flip) entirely by accident -- I had meticulously cleared the Darkroot Garden area of Forest Hunters several times before joining their convenant, and the next time I was in the area I reflexively aggro'd the mage with an arrow to the head and quickly incurred their wrath. Ended up killing Shiva and getting the ring from his bodyguard.

The DLC was really great, one of the best I've ever played. I must have missed the memo about the Sanctuary Guardian supposedly being challenging (killed the guy in one try), but Artorius and Manus kicked my ass over and over. With Artorius it was because I hadn't realized you're supposed to stagger him out of his buff -- I had assumed he just gets more powerful during the fight to the point that he can oneshot you. Similarly for Manus, I was failing to read two of his moves properly, but once I noticed the roar telegraphing his grab and acquired the discipline to wait to dodge his delayed slam attack, I was all good. Kalameet was badass too, though not quite as punishing. I ended up having a lot more trouble with Gwyn than I should have because I insisted on only parrying him -- I wasn't going to NOT exclusively parry the one boss that can be parried after playing the game with a parry-centric build.

Anyway, most people are already aware that Dark Souls is an excellently designed game, but I thought I'd put in my two cents especially for anyone like me who couldn't get over the game's reliance on the gamepad. Really plays like a charm now, like the PC port always should have.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

The late game isn't great though. I mean, its not terrible nor does it ruin the game or anything, its just a bit of an anticlimax. Especially Lost Izalith and the Bed of Chaos. I really hope they remaster the game and finish that area, because its obvious they rushed it.

 

[cvv]

I had always played DS1 and DS2 with MKB and recently I bought a controller and trying that out.

I'll say this - playing Souls with a controller is somewhat better. Changing walking speed is much easier, the movement is smoother and the R2/L2 buttons are more convenient than pressing shift and mouse click.

But it's nowhere near the case of OMG U PLAY SOULS WITH MKB THAT'S TOTALLY UNPLAYABLE THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY IT IS CONTROLLER. That's total bullshit. Although playing Souls games with MKB is a bit less convenient it's still perfectly fine. And some things are much superior, chief among them the camera control. That's where MKB absolutely shines. Controller camera control is utter dogshit compared to a mouse.

 

[Matador]

I need a new From Software game.

 

[Deflowerer]

I think you just suck at using a controller if you think it's dogshit controlling the camera.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I need a new From Software game.

Apparently they are making a new one. Something to do with Japan, horror and blood I think.
No, I'm not talking about that vampire weeb game. This looked more realistic.

Edit :

Found it. Called Shadows Die Twice, apparently.

 

[RoSoDude]

The late game isn't great though. I mean, its not terrible nor does it ruin the game or anything, its just a bit of an anticlimax. Especially Lost Izalith and the Bed of Chaos. I really hope they remaster the game and finish that area, because its obvious they rushed it.

It's definitely rushed, but I don't think it's quite as bad as people say. Except Lost Izalith and Bed of Chaos, which were unredeemably terrible and almost made me quit. I lied when I said no base game boss after Bell Gargoyles and before Gwyn took me more tries -- I had just already wiped Bed of Chaos from my memory. It's so awful. All you'd have to do to fix it is remove the crumbling floors and have the boss reset every time you fail (then it's forgettable rather than being a total shitshow).

I like New Londo Ruins, Catacombs/Tomb of the Giants, and the Duke's Archives a lot though. They each have their problems, but they're still pretty memorable and have some good moments. I also think bonfire warping is a good thing, and actually inevitable for a game of Dark Souls' size. The worlds looping back in on themselves is great, but it's not like it makes or breaks the experience.

I had always played DS1 and DS2 with MKB and recently I bought a controller and trying that out.

I'll say this - playing Souls with a controller is somewhat better. Changing walking speed is much easier, the movement is smoother and the R2/L2 buttons are more convenient than pressing shift and mouse click.

But it's nowhere near the case of OMG U PLAY SOULS WITH MKB THAT'S TOTALLY UNPLAYABLE THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY IT IS CONTROLLER. That's total bullshit. Although playing Souls games with MKB is a bit less convenient it's still perfectly fine. And some things are much superior, chief among them the camera control. That's where MKB absolutely shines. Controller camera control is utter dogshit compared to a mouse.

Yeah, forgot to mention walk speeds as a drawback. I just had Capslock bound to slow walk, and I don't use any Shift modifiers for my controls (for reference, I use LMB for light attack, RMB for strong attack, Shift for dash, Space for roll, F for interact, R for consummable, Q for parry, E for block, Tab for two-hand, and 1234 to cycle my equpment). I think beyond the objective advantages/disadvantages (which are fairly minor) it comes down to preference. I'm a noob when it comes to camera control via a joystick, so having direct mouse injection was a godsend. I think I will replay these games with a gamepad eventually, though -- I did the Undead Asylum revisit on a gamepad for a change and I actually did just fine, even with my risky parry fishing playstyle.

I think you just suck at using a controller if you think it's dogshit controlling the camera.

If you think a joystick can ever compare to direct mouse control for a 3D camera, you're out of your mind, my friend. Or you lack reading comprehension -- he said it was dogshit compared to a mouse, which is unequivocally true.

I need a new From Software game.

Apparently they are making a new one. Something to do with Japan, horror and blood I think.
No, I'm not talking about that vampire weeb game. This looked more realistic.

Edit :

Found it. Called Shadows Die Twice, apparently.

New From Software Tenchu game hype? Maybe?

 

[cvv]

It's definitely rushed, but I don't think it's quite as bad as people say. Except Lost Izalith and Bed of Chaos, which were unredeemably terrible and almost made me quit.

For me Demon Ruins were terrible too.

Ok a little rant.

I think I know now why. Thought about it a while but now I'm sure it's the blocky level design. Everything looks like a fucking Wolfenstein 3D, the original. Or Manhattan. Square or rectangular rooms, straight wide halls, right angles everywhere. Maybe that's why I hate DS3 levels so much, the game was chock full of this shit - High Wall of Lothric, Cathedral of the Deep, the Cataboms, Irithyl, Grand Archives, Demon Ruins, Lothric Castle. Boring, unsuprising, uninovative, lazy, with next to none of the deliciously mindbending, mischievous little turns, twists and surprises that I so adore in DS1 and DS2.

Btw DS2. I'm replaying SotfS now and yeah, the overall world design is illogical and doesn't make any sense. But the individual levels are all meh to excellent. Some levels are weaker but there isn't a single one I would outright hate. Drangleic Castle is the weakest in my book since it's the worst case of the Wolfenstein3D design disease in DS2 but even that is more fun to go through than all shitty DS3 levels put together.

 

[Ash]

I need a new From Software game.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Just kidding. The KF games are pretty meh. They're like Dark Souls in first person except:

-Shit combat
-average level design
-Lack of systemic RPG progression depth
-A number of bullshit deaths.

You're better off playing Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis and the like for hardcore FP/RPGs. Not bad for a PS1 game released in 1994 though, I suppose. By that I mean compared to PC counterparts, and early in PS life cycle and the advent of 3D. It was NOT a comparison to modern games, as even KF is better than most.

 

[Matador]

Maybe is a good time to get Arx Fatalis in the GOG sales, I have always been curious about that game. Ultima Underwold is brilliant, a shame the rough controls. The spiritual successor is being developed doesn't seem to have that magic.

It's been almost two years since the last time I played DS1. RoSoDude made me want to play it again. I´m thinking about a build to have fun with. I have never played magic build but I'm not very interested. Maybe a monk one with some faith spells, knuckles and claws could be interesting.

 

[cvv]

I just finished my NG++ run and I wonder about poise. I know the general consensus is poise was broken in DS1 so shit like Havel's was OP...but why? I guess it's related mainly to PvP but these days the game is quiet and I didn't get much PvP so I have no idea, what was wrong with poise. I even didn't get invaded in the forest when I was human, yeah. I was camping that spot for like 20 minutes waiting for some duels but zilch.

Personally, playing SotfS and DS1 back to back I absolutely love poise in DS1. It's amazing how you can change your build just by equipping heavy armor and just stand and tank. It seems to me heavy armor is pretty annoying anyway and it's only useful for, like, the ghosts and Four Kings and Capra and a few other instances so it's not exactly OP. I've heard about Havel mages ofc but no idea what that was all about. Why was that build OP?

 

[Elwro]

I just concur: poise in DS 1 was fun. It worked, and you could understand how it worked. One sees how good that was after seeing what they did in DS3...

 

[Jasede]

Poise in Dark Souls 3 is really simple, just read this two page Google doc explaining it...

 

[Arnust]

I think it's just a bit shallow, which is usually better than broken. I guess the "problem" is that, because of how Endurance works in Ds1, everyone at a certain level will be absolutely guaranteed to be wearing heavy armor with sizeable Poise, which makes not really fun to engage in online activity, which is already fucked for a selection of things. As PvE goes I guess it's aight, it's just so passive is only really satisfying rather than rewarding in this very active Action RPG.

I actually quite liked Dark Souls 3 hyperarmor- 200 hours later once I spent all that time wondering about it and haviong read Ancient Scrolls of Miyazaki's Wisdom. Maybe it's Stockholm Syndrome, though. Needless to say I prefer the relative halfway of DS2, if only it was a bit more chunly it'd be perfect.

 

[Hobo Elf]

There was nothing wrong with poise. If you wanted to play a heavy, tanky character, then the game allowed that. It usually came along with a heavy stat investment to be able to pull it off, even with rings, so it balanced itself out. Later DaS games shit the bed when they tried to appeal to the PvPers when in reality they should've made stats work differently in PvE and in PvP so they wouldn't have to screw over any one playerbase, but they did. They tried to compromise and in the end I don't think anyone was satisfied, which is why PvP in DaS3 is a bit of a ghost town. There's no value in having heavy armor that requires a hefty investment in stats to use only for it to be only just slightly better than lighter armor that lets you roll and move faster, which is the superior defense (and offense) anyway.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, endurance was an overpowered stat in DS1. One of the good things about DS2 is they tried limiting its power by splitting its affect across multiple stats, so you actually have to make an investment.
Probably shouldn't have tied I frames to adaptability though. I mean, why wouldn't you level that up to 20?

 

[cvv]

I guess the "problem" is that, because of how Endurance works in Ds1, everyone at a certain level will be absolutely guaranteed to be wearing heavy armor with sizeable Poise, which makes not really fun to engage in online activity

Unless you have some absurd Endurance with FaP and Havel's Ring you'll mid-roll at best in heavy armors. At the SL125 meta you'd fat-roll guaranteed. But I guess it can be super annoying fighting someone in full Havel's with the Havel Shield. Sure he could only walk but it would probably take ages to guard break him and put some damage into him. Again, I have only sparse experience with DS1 PvP so I can only guess.

P.S. - in short the 25% equip load limit for fast-rolling seems like a good trade off for heavy armors. Tho they REALLY should've limited the penalty only to rolling. Making your character also run slower and more clumsily is a terrible idea, especially in DS1 where you have to run everywhere manually for the first half of the game.

 

[cvv]

I actually quite liked Dark Souls 3 hyperarmor

I'm not sure if anyone really deciphered DS3 poise. It allegedly improves hyperarmor...but hyperarmor is infinite no? As long as you start a swing with, say, the Yhorm's Machete you can't be interrupted anyway? So what's there to improve.

To me it's pretty clear DS3 poise is a case of From giving up on actually solving the problem. They left poise there as fan service but didn't do anything with it. And that's only one example of many.

It's as if From people came to Miyazaki who was busy designing Bloodborne saying:

"Sir many of the features in DS3 are just placeholders for now, the covenants are yet to be fleshed out, some of them are identical, there's Velka statue but no sin, there's durability but it doesn't do anything yet, we still haven't solved the poise issue so right now it's just an empty stat in the game, elemental infusions still make your weapon worse so we still have to figure out the proper balance, boss weapons are still mostly trash since in previous games they were OP and needed nerfs afterwards so they still have to be balanced out too, the level design is still far from fleshed out, it's only a basic structure for now, mostly open spaces and wide right-angled corridors, they need to be properly twisted, spiced up and verticalized, weapon arts seem like a cool idea but in our internal testing everyone stopped using them after initial excitement for some reason so we have to look into that as well, we still have bonfires a few metres from each other as an artefact from the testing version, it can't stay like that obviously, miracles and sorceries are still nerfed to the point they'd be completely unviable in the finished version, maybe we should also put some more colours in the game so it's not just gray, black and beige and many more clothes, weapons, miracles and sorceries, after the bonanza in SotfS people would be super disappointed with our current stock.......in short, there are still a lot of decisions to be made here and we need your input."

Miyazaki: "Don't you see I'm busy with Bloodborne and also the pre-production for our future projects? Told you I don't wanna hear about any Dark Souls anymore. Just make the game as fast as Bloodborne, put a lot of fast knights for bosses in there and don't you dare bother me again. Scram!"

Sorry for rant, I really hate DS3.

 

[praetor]

I guess the "problem" is that, because of how Endurance works in Ds1, everyone at a certain level will be absolutely guaranteed to be wearing heavy armor with sizeable Poise, which makes not really fun to engage in online activity

Unless you have some absurd Endurance with FaP and Havel's Ring you'll mid-roll at best in heavy armors. At the SL125 meta you'd fat-roll guaranteed. But I guess it can be super annoying fighting someone in full Havel's with the Havel Shield. Sure he could only walk but it would probably take ages to guard break him and put some damage into him. Again, I have only sparse experience with DS1 PvP so I can only guess.

P.S. - in short the 25% equip load limit for fast-rolling seems like a good trade off for heavy armors. Tho they REALLY should've limited the penalty only to rolling. Making your character also run slower and more clumsily is a terrible idea, especially in DS1 where you have to run everywhere manually for the first half of the game.

but it's relatively pointless to go over 56 poise in DS1, as only the slowest of the slow weapons will stagger you, and those mostly can't combo and are so slow you can avoid them with a ping of 10 minutes.

that was one of the 2 problems with poise in DS1: it was too easy to stack that "optimal breakpoint", and it didn't matter with the weapons that should've made the best use out of it, not to mention that it's something that should've been most useful with the slow heavy ass weapons, and yet thanks to how poise is give by armour, and fast roll is king, it was the most difficult to have any significant amount of poise with slow heavy weapons. the other big problem, imo, was that it was an "always on" effect, instead of working like a better tuned hyperarmour only during actions

DS2, as usual, had the best idea and frankly by far the best implementation with the "works fully only while attacking, but while standing/running it will half-stagger you allowing to at least partly recover your fuckups but not allowing you to be OP and just poise-backstab everything", but it fucked up with the breakpoints (the other way around to DS1. it's now too hard to get to the meaningful, optimal breakpoints ), and it still didn't address the problem with heavy weapons.

honestly, i think that if they took DS2 implementation, balanced/optimised the breakpoints better and made poise a function of weight and the armour equipped (like something of the sort: your total equipped weight gives base poise, while armour has different poise multipliers), it would've been perfect

just my 0.02€