From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Tancred]

If you're counting red phantoms / non respawnable enemies, you also have

Fanged Boar (Parish)
2 x Fanged Boar (Duke's Archives)
Paladin Leeroy (Invader)
3 x Kirk (Invader)
Lautrec (Quest)
Hollowed Crestfallen adventurer (New Londo)
Mimics (Sen's Fortress, 3 in Anor Londo, 1 in Duke's Archives, I forgot the rest)
Titanite Demons (Parish, 4 at sen's fortress, Anor Londo, Catacombs. The one in Lost Izalith respawns, so it doesn't count)
2 Giants at Sen's Forteress
Butcher bitch at Blighttown (Invader)
Havel (Undead Burg)
Channeler (Parish and Depths)
Penis hat pyromancer (Painted World Invader)
Black Knights (Burg, Parish, Tomb of Giants, Forest, catacombs)
Necromancers (catacombs. Like 5 I think)

I guess you could also add two Gargoyles in Anor Londo which don't respawn.
Also, does dark Anor Londo have unique invaders? I can't recall.

Two knights, a female archer and three cats in Darkroot Forest
Giant rat in depths
Squid thing guarding Power Within in Blighttown
Two hollowed clerics in Tomb of the Giants
Crystallised knight in Duke's Archives
Two golden crystal golems (1 in Duke's Archives, 1 in Darkroot Basin)
Two slug things with huge spears in lower New Londo
Daughter of Chaos in Lost Izalith
Red phantom Chester in Oolacile Township
Chained prisoner in the Oolacile jail

Edit: I think two of those creepy blue Cthulhu headed monsters in Duke's Archive don't respawn either. They're the ones that drop miracles for Gwynevere's covenant?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, two of them don't respawn. They are also non-hostile; they will just weep in the corner.

 

[praetor]

just started playing Prepare to Die Again + Rekindled... really nice, definitely recommended for veterans (i'm only up to the Gargoyles, and the changes are enough to throw you off so you can't rush like a madman, but not ott to make it a clusterfuck. and the different item placements are also good and sensible, they don't feel like an amateur modder random nonsense). this is what the Remastered should've been.

save your money, fuck the remastered, and play this instead.

why not just replay Dark Souls 2?

because i already finished it 7 times

 

[Wunderbar]

Dark Souls II SotFS is the most replayable soulsborne game.
Dat NG+ with new encounters and new equipment.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

SotFS also adds some stupid bullshit though. They somehow made the Black Gulch even worse.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

SotFS also adds some stupid bullshit though. They somehow made the Black Gulch even worse.

The NPC invaders I presume? I remember the first fucker to be quite irritating.

That and the fact you have to use a branch to access the bonfire.
Here's basically what happened first time I visited Black Gulch in Scholar

> "Oh shit an invader"
> "Better get to the bonfire. Don't want to fight him around poison spamming bullshit statues."
> "WTF WHY IS THERE IS A PETRIFIED STATUE"
> Mashes the use button
> "WHY IS IT TAKING SO LONG TO BECOME TARGETABLE"
> "GET OUT OF MY WAY"
> Gets fucked from both sides by the hollow and the phantom
> "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

 

[L'Montes]

Say what you will of soul memory and some of the other BS in Dark Souls 2, those trolly NPC invaders like Maldron were pretty great.

 

[L'Montes]

I raged hard over his "not an invasion" schtick the first time in Loyce. The way he runs down the stair case into the respawning enemies in Iron is so true-to-life for invaders too.

They out-did themselves, kinda. Like with the knight invader who disguises himself as a barrel in Loyce. The invaders in Dark Souls 3 wound up seeming less interesting, in context.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

At Brume Tower you could just pop a seed of the giant and watch as the asshole gets raped by his own bullshit.

Loyce is the true test of patience. Don't open the gate. Murder every enemy you see, especially those fucking sanics, and prepare to deal with a health bloated, estus chugging coward.
I found taking loyd talismans help, as the AI is too stupid to realize that he can't drink estus when loyd'd, and you can get a free hit in whilst the dumbass is trying to heal.

 

[Wunderbar]

Invaders in DLCs (and Maldron in particular) were awesome.

Armorer Dennis, Fencer Sharon, Forlorn and Woodland Victor on the other hand. Fuck them.

 

[Atomkilla]

Maldron the Assassin is probably the best hostile NPC in whole Soulsborne. Never have I hated and loved a character that has no line of dialogue as much as him.

 

[Wunderbar]

SotFS also adds some stupid bullshit though. They somehow made the Black Gulch even worse.

the amount of bullshit SofFS added in negligible when compared to the amount of goodness.

Better NG+ cycles, enemy placements makes more sense. Items are now scattered in a slightly different fashion, allowing speedrunners or expert players to acquire stuff they need earlier. Some changes made certain locations much more memorable, like crazy heide knights, or knights that bow to you in Dragon shrine. There's also a lot of minor additions, like invisible hollows, or butterflies in the unreachable places.

Petrified dudes blocking your path were introduced to alter progression route, adding small metroidvania feel.

 

[Lazing Dirk]

Killing that fucker (Maldron) before he had a chance to run away (in either case) was one of the most satisfying moments I had in that game. EAT THAT YOU FUCKING SHITTER.

 

[L'Montes]

SotFS also adds some stupid bullshit though. They somehow made the Black Gulch even worse.

the amount of bullshit SofFS added in negligible when compared to the amount of goodness.

Better NG+ cycles, enemy placements makes more sense. Items are now scattered in a slightly different fashion, allowing speedrunners or expert players to acquire stuff they need earlier. Some changes made certain locations much more memorable, like crazy heide knights, or knights that bow to you in Dragon shrine. There's also a lot of minor additions, like invisible hollows, or butterflies in the unreachable places.

Petrified dudes blocking your path were introduced to alter progression route, adding small metroidvania feel.

I liked most of the SotFS changes, the wharf and Heide's are especially improved. Shaded Ruins were kinda annoying though. In OG DS2, you had the Lion warriors and curse pots mostly, which wasn't "great", but it was an interesting roadblock for casting-focused players. The Lions would eat magic like it was nothing, but a sorcerer-type could still dispatch them with some dagger backstabs even with it unupgraded. The invisible fellows aren't magic resistant, but can't be locked onto. They wound up being more generally obnoxious across multiple types of builds.

Some of the new NPC invaders like the Armorer are a huge pain on low-level/Agape runs as well, because NPC invaders don't care if you're unleveled at minimum soul memory I guess.

People were critical of DS2 for the level design, soul memory, dumb plot, and it being made by the "B-team." They did their usual thing, over-correcting with patches too. Miracles went from a way to easily cheese most bosses at launch (which was entirely their fault for making most bosses guys in metal armor that are weak to lightning) to crippled... in power and quantity both, with a patch suggesting that it was a mistake... and it never getting corrected. It had some good ideas and QoL in there too though, and some moments of brilliance.

Also, DS3 showed that the A-team was perfectly willing to have fanservice-y bullshit stuff in their games like alter-Sieg being brought back for some reason.

 

[Wunderbar]

People were critical of DS2 for the level design, soul memory, dumb plot, and it being made by the "B-team."

I get criticism on level design, I get criticism on soul memory. I even get criticism on B-team (stupid fans idolizing miyazaki), despite thinking that they did a decent job.

But dumb plot? What was dumb about it? DS3 and Bloodborne plots are feeling like overly convoluted mess when compared to DS2.

 

[L'Montes]

It's a matter of perspective at the time perhaps. Dark Souls 1 started with a creation myth, and led into an investigation of what had gone wrong since. Nito, Gwyn, the Witch, and the pygmy found the souls of lords, and overthrew the old order. At the end of the game, you've dispatched the remnants of what was left and presumably set things on a new path.

Dark Souls 2 hits you over the head with this idea that things are recurring instead, and that the plot seems mostly in service to the idea that these four robot masters Lord souls are eternally popping back up as-is the fire. And you must challenge/find them to re-light the fire (or not), but it all just repeats either way instead of changing. Of course, in the context of Dark Souls 2, those are actually Seath's, The Witch's, Gwyn's, and Nito (Spiderboss, Sinner, Balrog, and Sir-Corpsalot respectively). Except, Seath was never an originator of a Lord Soul, and was just rewarded a fraction of Gwyn's (like the 4-kings). He was *mechanically* one of the final/major bosses in in Dark Souls 1, though really you're collecting scraps (Gwyn fragments from 2 locations, failed kindler Witch, and Nito).

So, Dark Souls 1 had these unique persons that found power-macguffins in the first flame, and they used that power to establish themselves. They were: personalities + power that led to eventual tragic falls. In Dark Souls 2, the souls (tools of prior entities) are treated as having imprints of the powers/personality of the first users (despite being consumed by the chosen undead), and either shaping these characters or finding people with very similar flaws? It seemed to strip or cheapen some of the uniqueness of the former personalities of Dark Souls 1 to recycle them as recurring bosses as a mechanic. And it was... a "thing" to do it. Re:

My Lord made magnificent findings on souls… An accomplishment for the ages…
He vanquished the Four Great Ones… And built this kingdom upon their souls. -C.Wellager

In the terms of eternal recurrence, and the many many many kingdoms that rose and fell (as NPCs and items are fond of mentioning to you) - how many people had to defeat the 4 robot masters before you? Vendrick did it! Now it's your turn!

Maybe some combination of that cheapening, the fact that it didn't even seem to be accurate (re: Seath not being one of the original lords in a real sense), and the sense of, "Oh, this is how they'll make Dark Souls sequels forever..."

I think Dark Souls 3 dampened some of the criticism, or gave people another target in the form of the fanservice and other elements in that game (people's feelings for Gael in the DLC for example).

 

[Silva]

Yeah, looking back at DS3 I think breaking the "seek the Lords souls" cycle and focusing on the people who historically linked the flame was a smart choice, because it opened up space to explore different avenues than "Nito in another custome". Of course it had it's own share of failings that made the end result a mess. But the idea of shifting focus away from the original 4 Lord souls was good.

 

[Atomkilla]

DS2 would have been way better if the focus was on finding the Four Crowns instead of Four Souls. Vendrick, Old Iron King, Ivory King and the Sunken King are way more memorable and interesting as characters, or had potential for being such.

Nashandra was a good antagonist in theory, but since the big 4 preceding it make no sense, she is a poor end game boss (not talking from a gameplay perspective).
Aldia was great though. Lack of his presence in DS3 is a big loss in my opinion.

I get it why DS3 chose to ignore large parts of DS2. Its story are really three stories in one - about the character and overcoming his curse, about Vendrick and fall of Drangleic and about Lost Crowns - with some First Flame thrown atop of it all. Compared to DS1, and even DS3, this is a very loose narrative that's hard to cover properly.

And I imagine Myiazaki didn't really see some stuff from DS2 as belonging to a wider picture. I think he is right. Stuff like Lost Crowns are very much DS, Four recurring Souls not so much.
He did however miss a mark on some stuff in DS3. And too much bullshit fanservice.

...

I wonder, however, how big of an impact did Tanimura have on DS3.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I think the four souls arc was weak attempt by From to connect the game to Dark Souls 1. If you look at the souls those bosses drop in NG+ and beyond, they all reference the Lord souls from Dark Souls 1.
I blame Namco. If they didn't push for a Dark Souls sequel, then From would have just done their own thing, and the game's plot would have been better for it.

 

[Akratus]

Spoiler

Abysswalker? More like knight LARPer.

Really though, felt like I made more mistakes than a few other attempts and still somehow won. My +15 zweihander feels slightly cheap like I'm just ending fights earlier rather than getting better. Still very happy to have beaten him for the first time. A win's a win.

 

[Wunderbar]

I wonder, however, how big of an impact did Tanimura have on DS3.

he was assigned to multiplayer

 

[L'Montes]

I think the four souls arc was weak attempt by From to connect the game to Dark Souls 1. If you look at the souls those bosses drop in NG+ and beyond, they all reference the Lord souls from Dark Souls 1.
I blame Namco. If they didn't push for a Dark Souls sequel, then From would have just done their own thing, and the game's plot would have been better for it.

I suspect the arc of all of this goes something like (some speculation on my part):

Miyazaki comes into helm an aimless production (Demon's Souls), he is not a big name or a director of games at this point (he had only directed some Armored Core at that point). He managed to get a unique vision across in the Demon's, despite it being a title that's largely built on Sony middleware and other non-proprietary assets. Sony's Pres famously calls it bad, and declines to publish it in the West.

It has legs abroad though, and seeing the success of Demon's (it becomes Atlus USA's best-selling title ever, iirc) Namco (the EU publisher) sees franchise potential and offers a multi-game contract to Fromsoft. Apparently Miyazaki at one point tried to make an actual Demon's Souls 2, but it wasn't going to happen for various reasons (not just the obvious IP ones)... I want to say that was in 4gamer interview?

I suspect Namco straight out offers a 3-game deal, since they're a franchise kind of company. This deal is done with the old management of From. Miyazaki had directed... just Demon's at that point. He goes onto direct Dark Souls, which was a huge success. It spawns a petition to bring it to PC (despite From having practically no experience ever releasing games to PC). During the production of Prepare to Die (PC release), Sony approaches From/Miyazaki with an offer to make another game on new hardware. That becomes Bloodborne, and Miyazaki hands off directing duties (he talks about being tired of the souls business somewhat by the end of Dark Souls 1... you get the impression that he doesn't like making the same game over and over). Whatever you think of the "design" aspects of Dark Souls 2, they definitely have a different approach to the writing and story than Miyazaki... which seems pretty distinct. Fromsoft is purchased by Kadokawa, and the new management promotes him to president.

At this point, whether there was actually a 3-game deal or whether the prior management was just "Pay us to make another game? Sure!", "President" Miyazaki is presumably in a better position than relatively-new-director-Miyazaki to dictate what will happen next. Dark Souls ends, and they're off on this new path (maybe something at E3?). As of 2018, the beginning of his work on souls was 10 years ago now (he talks about it being 5 years of his life in 2013).

I'm not sure I blame Namco or Fromsoft really. Namco wanted to capitalize on what they saw was trending/selling. Miyazaki wanted to be done with it after the first one, and Fromsoft's management presumably wanted to keep their studio employed and continue what was probably the most successful thing to ever come out of Fromsoft.

 

[Akratus]

Even if there was no information about it I would still think 2 and 3 only exist because of the publisher wanting to keep the moneytrain going. I saw a major shift between 1 and 2, immediately. The game has a different feel right down to the core.

 

[L'Montes]

It's rarely just the publishers. Namco has a more diverse set of franchises and properties to sell than most developers. That's probably true of most big publishers really (EA, Ubisoft, Activision, etc.), they need your game less than the developer needs the contracts (look at Obsidian's testy relationships with publishers via MCA for reference). I've played King's Field. I've played Enchanted Arm. I've played Armored Core. I don't want to say Fromsoft are a "bad" developer, but they weren't a dev-house that had publishers breaking down their door with big offers I don't think. If Namco was offering a contract post-Demon's, they would've been silly not to take it.

Namco is fucking tone-deaf on what makes Dark Souls, Dark Souls. And they've shown willingness to try to make a buck off it for sure:
http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a789918/dark-souls-clothing-line/

As for them changing between titles, there was always going to be a shift between 1 and 2, because the director changed. Miyazaki is a guy with a vision, but not particularly fond of doing the same game over and over. I assume the original pitch for Dark Souls from Namco was, "Hey, can you make Demon's Souls again, but with a different name?" And, if there was a multi-game deal, I can see why, as "an artist" he might leap at the chance to let someone else direct while he went off to make werewolves-in-not-London.

It's hard to say how "tired" of Dark Souls Miyazaki was by the time 3 came around (even though he wasn't directly involved in 2), but he definitely doubled down on publicly stating Dark Souls was "over" and ending the series with DS3. It's possible he found it less enjoyable to work on than 1, or that he didn't like having to reconcile his old work with Dark Souls 2 (or both). He definitely ignored many elements in 2. In Dark Souls 2, just about every kingdom has gone through so many cycles of repetition that no one remembers their names anymore (they certainly don't recall the old gods at that point). However, in Dark Souls 3, they're back to remembering all of Dark Souls 1... but forgetting Dark Souls 2. Convenient, that.

It's also possible that there's a combination of him bring president, him having enough of 'Souls, and Fromsoft (and his) prestige ballooning over the past several years means that they're at liberty to negotiate better and more lucrative publishing deals than Fromsoft could ten years ago.

 

[aweigh]

What's the story about?