From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Akratus]

You just need to learn his attacks. Manus actually gives you quite a bit of time to get an attack in. But you do have to be careful and take your time. But he isn't attacking all the time. And take the combo for example. He throws up his hands first, telegraphing it, and putting up your shield and walking backward is actually a foolproof deterrant if you don't wait too long. You just have to fight him a couple of times and maybe switch your playstyle a little and then hit your head against that brick wall a couple dozen times, no big deal. He was the first boss I switched my playstyle on, but it did help me quit a bit to start using the eagle shield.

 

[RoSoDude]

All of the DLC bosses are excellent, arguably the best in Dark Souls. They were the only bosses after Bell Gargoyles (the one that forced me to git gud) which took me more than three attempts, which is part of why I like them so much -- they're a real challenge! Unforgiving attack rhythms but with consistently readable tells that the player has to learn. Their more frequent attacks necessitate stricter stamina management (hence why the dude outside Artorius sells you Green Blossoms to increase your stamina regen) and force you to find tighter openings to attack or heal during their longer animations, leading to tenser moment-to-moment decisions overall compared to the base game's bosses.

I didn't get the hype around the Sanctuary Guardian's difficulty though, I killed that thing on my first try, I think without taking a single hit. Artorius and Manus seriously kicked my ass over and over for the aforementioned reasons (in particular, I was failing to read a few of their tells), so each of their defeats were high points of the experience for me. Kalameet wasn't quite as difficult, but was a lot of fun regardless, with those big sweeping attacks that are rather satisfying to dodge and punish.

 

[Arnust]

Inferno strikes again. Very comprehensive, actually.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

lol I knew that youtuberfags would complain about the logan's darker room in the Great archives

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I didn't get the hype around the Sanctuary Guardian's difficulty though, I killed that thing on my first try, I think without taking a single hit. Artorius and Manus seriously kicked my ass over and over for the aforementioned reasons (in particular, I was failing to read a few of their tells), so each of their defeats were high points of the experience for me. Kalameet wasn't quite as difficult, but was a lot of fun regardless, with those big sweeping attacks that are rather satisfying to dodge and punish.

Its because it flys away before you can get a hit in. Its one of those bosses where you have half a second to get a hit in, and then spend the fight chasing him and dodging his attacks. Its boring.
Artorias was a much better fight. He's aggressive, but there's no magic spam nonsense that's a bitch to avoid, he doesn't fly, you can actually get a few hits in at a time, and you can knock him out of his buff. He actually felt satisfying to fight.
There's only one attack that's bullshit and that's his little disengage when he jumps back and swings his sword around that has no wind up.

 

[RoSoDude]

Inferno strikes again. Very comprehensive, actually.

In his last video he plugged Midair at the end as being more worth players' time and money. Yesterday I saw him in that game, and was trying to remember who InfernoPlus was.

Sadly, he was easy to find because the server population was under 50

 

[Lutte]

My problem with Manus is that he follows the design philosophy of "always attack, all the time, never give the player any chance to do anything". Which I honestly find quite boring in a game like Dark Souls 1, as the player animations tend to be pretty slow and as such a lot of the fight is waiting for an opening that lasts for like a split second.

Stop hugging manus and he will not do any of that comboing. Run away from him, bait his extended arm move, hit the arm. The only thing you have to dodge is his jump and that extended arm slam and only if you didn't sprint far away enough. The silver pendant spam can take care of the dark magic. Enjoy the trivialized fight.
The same tactic can be employed against some other combo-spamming bosses of the series which lose all ability to do anything threatening if you stop locking onto them and run away, like Friede in the DS3 DLC. You're almost always guaranteed a free hit when she jumps at you and her jumps aren't hard to dodge. Everything else can be dealt with simply by sprinting away. Those infinite scythe combo? She won't do that if you're not in the melee range to begin, relying on tracking pyro, cold tracks magic and.. those AoE jumps that leave her wide open for your own combos to slam her down or backstabs.

Clarity and understanding will come to you after trying this against manus and realizing that the AI of bosses in those games is pretty dumb and can be manipulated to do whatever you want if you get just the right positioning and distance from them. For some it's about sprinting away, for others it's hugging a particular side or their back (facilitated by not locking on and sprinting), but rarely do you ever have to dodge every hit of a combo or even trigger those combos unless you voluntarily stick yourself to the mindset of hugging enemies to be always ready to hit them. That mindset is poison. Bait specific moves.

 

[Akratus]

Spoiler

Cut up that Kalameat.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

"How it feeeel Kalameet? To be a...bitch. Just like Seathe."

I love that crazy bald bastard.

 

[sullynathan]

Cut up that Kalameat.

with Zweihander? is this NG?

 

[Akratus]

Cut up that Kalameat.

with Zweihander? is this NG?

Yes, two handed +15 Zweihander, in NG. No magic, pyromancy, ranged weapons, miracles. . oh and I used a mouse and keyboard. Thank god for dsmfix. I'd done all bosses before except the dlc ones minus the guardian so this was my first time killing Kalameet, Artorias and Manus.

 

[sullynathan]

Cut up that Kalameat.

with Zweihander? is this NG?

Yes, two handed +15 Zweihander, in NG. No magic, pyromancy, ranged weapons, miracles. . oh and I used a mouse and keyboard. Thank god for dsmfix. I'd done all bosses before except the dlc ones minus the guardian so this was my first time killing Kalameet, Artorias and Manus.

Zweihander really beats the hell out of Artorias, I fought him with it on NG++ and it's effective. I was a full tank with all great armor slow rolling too. Thanos it's a bit less effective, but against Kalameet I could never do it. I used a greatsword at the heaviest.

 

[Akratus]

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, I don't see the fuss about M+KB
I beat DS1, DS2 and Cuphead with a keyboard. Its not that hard. Sure, your fingers eventually get tired, but I would imagine it to be no different with controllers, gripping a little thing like that and twiddling those thumbs.

A great shield pretty much trivializes Artorias as well. Its kind of dirty.
How viable is it to go full tank and not roll in DS2? I know its doable in DS1, as poise and armor actually does something in that game.
Seriously, stack poise, get a halberd and spam R2 against Nito. The spin attack kills the skeletons and he's probably not going to be able to kill you fast enough enough, especially if you pop estus now and then.

 

[Jezal_k23]

My first run through DS1 was on a keyboard too. Fun stuff.

 

[Lutte]

Yeah, I don't see the fuss about M+KB

Moving the camera in a direction your character is not facing while playing with no lock on AND having fine control over the direction of your weapon simply works better with twin sticks. Playing with KB is not impossible, there's nothing impossible when people have beaten dark souls with stuff like drum kit controllers.

But just because something is possible doesn't mean it's optimal. Unless you're absolutely averse to twin analog sticks pads there's really no reason not to use such.

How viable is it to go full tank and not roll in DS2? I know its doable in DS1, as poise and armor actually does something in that game.

Poise is not broken in DS2 at all. It is just more balanced than in DS1, and of all the souls, it's the soul game with the highest variety of viable build. Almost anything you can think of is viable in this game, bar using magic or split damage weapons in DLCs because the DLC bosses have inflated defenses. Technically it's possible to kill something like the fume with sorcery, but why would you? it's like hitting a hard wall with your bare naked fists.

Poise in DS2 is not active at all time but it is active when you are using your weapon - hyper armor mode -, meaning that you need to be consciously trading hits, rather than getting hit and r1ing after the fact. Heavy weapons have a lot of hyper armor, use stuff like greatswords, ultra greatswords, maces and so on. Don't expect to trade hits using something like a dinky dagger or a katana.

The way poise works in DS2 thus both requires active player thinking and specialization in build : you don't get to put on some havel or stone armor on a dex character and expect to r1 spam some bosses like you can do with 4 kings and nito in DS1, you need a true turtle build with high STR and the right weapons. Greatshield work fine too, any with high stability will tank pretty much anything in the game without eating your stamina. It's like an integrated in-game-world difficulty setting where putting a greatshield on a character trivializes all of it. If something does some environmental or elemental damage like Smelter you can still turtle after eating some gems up.

DS2 is my most played souls game, I've done a run with pretty much every type of character, the only gripe I have with it is going with a dex character and dealing with the constantly breaking weapons with their insanely low durability. But that's just a minor gripe compared to how many builds aren't viable in DS3.

 

[L'Montes]

Poise is not broken in DS2 at all. It is just more balanced than in DS1, and of all the souls, it's the soul game with the highest variety of viable build. Almost anything you can think of is viable in this game, bar using magic or split damage weapons in DLCs because the DLC bosses have inflated defenses.

Yeah, I had a few "pure" builds (Sorcerer, Cleric, etc.) types that found this out the hard way. It was easier to clear the DLC mooks with an unleveled club and strength jewelry than to use sorcery with a dedicated caster.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Poise in DS2 is not active at all time but it is active when you are using your weapon - hyper armor mode -, meaning that you need to be consciously trading hits, rather than getting hit and r1ing after the fact. Heavy weapons have a lot of hyper armor, use stuff like greatswords, ultra greatswords, maces and so on. Don't expect to trade hits using something like a dinky dagger or a katana.

This is true, except, don't expect to trade hits at all because you'll just take so much damage you'll die. Poise is a pvp mechanic in DS2. Enemies have poise in the 200-1000 range if they have any at all.

UGS is great for ignoring poise and pancaking shit though.

 

[Lutte]

Poise is not broken in DS2 at all. It is just more balanced than in DS1, and of all the souls, it's the soul game with the highest variety of viable build. Almost anything you can think of is viable in this game, bar using magic or split damage weapons in DLCs because the DLC bosses have inflated defenses.

Yeah, I had a few "pure" builds (Sorcerer, Cleric, etc.) types that found this out the hard way. It was easier to clear the DLC mooks with an unleveled club and strength jewelry than to use sorcery with a dedicated caster.

From essentially listened to the complaints against casters from elements of the community after the release of DS2 and made magic worthless in the DLC, and then in Dark Souls 3, where building a character that can do any damage at all requires an investment of 60 in int or faith, or 40 in both for dark and pyros. Even then you would still probably do more damage on the same char, that has no dex nor str investments, with a raw sellsword twinblade L1 combo with whatever buff your caster can put on it.

Poise in DS2 is not active at all time but it is active when you are using your weapon - hyper armor mode -, meaning that you need to be consciously trading hits, rather than getting hit and r1ing after the fact. Heavy weapons have a lot of hyper armor, use stuff like greatswords, ultra greatswords, maces and so on. Don't expect to trade hits using something like a dinky dagger or a katana.

This is true, except, don't expect to trade hits at all because you'll just take so much damage you'll die.

Trading is very viable against groups of mobs, just level some vigor up. On bosses less so but you can sit behind a greatshield all day long and patiently wait for the right opportunity on a turtle playstyle and there's not that many attacks/combos that can kill you fast in ds2 vanilla, so usually getting greedy when wielding a heavy weapon means you're going to lose half health but not for nothing because you will also have damaged the boss, unlike lesser weapons that couldn't have handled trading. When you go back to dex builds after having witnessed the majesty of still damaging things even when you make mistakes and did that one more r1 you shouldn't have and end up being stunned during that greedy moment reminds you that ultra weapons are the best thing since sliced bread.
You can see an example of what I'm talking about here (quickly googled for random people doing GS run)

Guy gets hit by the second sentinel coming at him but still does so much damage to it, this kind of situation is really, really helpful on a first run of a game and you're still fresh to it. I loved my UGS run.

I didn't even try to use a heavy weapon once in DS3 because unlike DS2 doing such things is absolutely never viable. Trading in DS3 is asking for getting mowed down.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Trading in DS3 actually works much better because you can stagger your opponents. I killed Friede with a great hammer because it staggered her every 3 or 4 hits, I forget, but basically I could go in for a hit, eat the counter for the second, trigger her stagger and get a third, which triggered her to dodge away and let me estus. Something along those lines.

He gets in 1 extra hit during the fight here, but you lose a lot of stamina regen when your equip load is high. I guess that's not an issue if you're willing to spam herbs, but I find that shit tedious.

 

[Invictus]

Holy shit are the Dark Knight weapons OP if you manage to get them early... none of the bosses so far have managed to survive more than 6 hits from my +3 Dark Knight Longsword, and here I thought the Drake sword was kind of cheating for 1/3 of the game

 

[Damned Registrations]

Yep, this is why the speedruns use one. 20% more damage against demons too, which happens to be a lot of the bosses.

 

[Lutte]

Trading in DS3 actually works much better because you can stagger your opponents. I killed Friede with a great hammer because it staggered her every 3 or 4 hits, I forget, but basically I could go in for a hit, eat the counter for the second, trigger her stagger and get a third, which triggered her to dodge away and let me estus. Something along those lines.

He gets in 1 extra hit during the fight here, but you lose a lot of stamina regen when your equip load is high. I guess that's not an issue if you're willing to spam herbs, but I find that shit tedious.

Friede is one of the few bosses with no poise. I at times managed to unleash full L1 combo of my sellsword twinblades on her. As long as you get the first hit with a fast weapon on Friede she literally cannot attack you back until she dodges OR you run out of stamina. So you're actually at a disadvantage here with your great hammer, because with the speed of twinblades you get the second hit and stun on her before she can even counter. Multiple light weapons hits stops her from doing any move other than her dodge so if you're lucky and she doesn't dodge it's face slapping time.
I can't even begin to imagine playing ds3 with anything other than super fast weapons. They allow you to get strikes that you can't afford to with anything else if you want to play aggressive, they have the highest damage potential for destroying bosses during their slower recovery times and you get many hits in (pontiff ring) and they keep enemies with no poise completely unable to do anything unless they dodge out of it.

but you lose a lot of stamina regen when your equip load is high

Yeah, but that's early game. You level up at a decent pace in ds2 and the first equip load ring is found in the same area as the greatsword. Chloranthy is also an early game ring.
Using the Greatsword in DS2 felt like using the Zweihander in DS1. They are the two early UGS of the game and also close to the most optimal for staying with you until late game with high character stats. Truly a wonderful weapon that's never really outclassed by later UGS.

Holy shit are the Dark Knight weapons OP if you manage to get them early... none of the bosses so far have managed to survive more than 6 hits from my +3 Dark Knight Longsword, and here I thought the Drake sword was kind of cheating for 1/3 of the game

Drake sword was always a trap. A claymore with just a tiny upgrade will outdamage it plenty. Even if you compare fully upgraded drake sword vs upgraded any normal weapon, even basic longsword, it loses it as soon as you have like 20 str and 20 dex. Scaling matters.
"cheating" for more than 1/3 of the game can be done without relying on RNG drops from black knights, you just need to kill taurus and capra, go to the depths, get ember, blighttown, get large titanite, upgrade to +10 then farm the wraiths in londo for chunks. Go back to asylum with your +14 monster for your slab and you have now a +15 weapon before reaching anor londo.

 

[Jezal_k23]

An aspect I don't see mentioned that often: I really like the slower healing in DS2.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Yeah I looked up the fight for an example after my post and I was remembering it wrong; it was still highly effective though, because even when she'd dodge she'd get clipped for massive damage. So you always got at least 2 huge hits off, plenty more if she tried to counter, since the window was too small for her to land a counter hit. That's the real difference, with a fuckoff huge weapon, eating one hit and dishing out two is worth it. If you're using twinblades and eat a hit to dish out two, you're losing badly. I think the stagger came into play on her pops in phase 2, you can easily get a crit off for insane damage.