From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Rafidur]

I thought elemental weapons were the best for level 1 runs in DS1?

 

[Silverfish]

Elemental weapons wreck DS1. The supposed drawback is the split damage types, but that's easily overcome by having one fire weapon and one lightning. Nothing in the game has significant resistance to both (the Midir trap), so you'll always have a viable option. And while it's true that a purely physical weapon can eventually outpace its elemental counterpart, the level investment is so much steeper that it's not really worth it.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Weird, I always read that split weapon damage is always inferior because of how resistances work.

 

[Black Angel]

Weird, I always read that split weapon damage is always inferior because of how resistances work.

Yeah, I get this impression too. A +15 Normal weapon with fast enough swings and recovery between them should've been able to dish out higher DPS when buffed with resins, spells, or miracles, in DkS1. Not sure how it fares in the sequels.

 

[Blaine]

Elemental weapons wreck DS1. The supposed drawback is the split damage types, but that's easily overcome by having one fire weapon and one lightning. Nothing in the game has significant resistance to both (the Midir trap), so you'll always have a viable option. And while it's true that a purely physical weapon can eventually outpace its elemental counterpart, the level investment is so much steeper that it's not really worth it.

Doesn't seem to apply to missile weapons, though; and when it does, the ammo cost is unreal.

I tried firing a moonlight arrow from a +5 magic longbow, with 40 INT and 16 DEX, and I believe it dealt 70 damage to a pink devil. I was expecting double that for 500 souls per arrow, and around 200 at full upgrade.

Guess that's why every arrow cheese strat uses poison arrows, or a fire combo.

 

[Teut Busnet]

Elemental weapons wreck DS1. The supposed drawback is the split damage types, but that's easily overcome by having one fire weapon and one lightning. Nothing in the game has significant resistance to both (the Midir trap), so you'll always have a viable option. And while it's true that a purely physical weapon can eventually outpace its elemental counterpart, the level investment is so much steeper that it's not really worth it.

Yes. The one time I tried to go through as many NG+ as possible, I had a lightning Zweihander and a lightning Washing Pole and had no trouble.

I was worried at first if I would have enough dps for the Four Kings, but they weren't a problem. (I stopped after NG+ 5 or 6 though, because it was boring and didn't really get any harder.)

 

[Average Manatee]

Weird, I always read that split weapon damage is always inferior because of how resistances work.

Probably in reference to SL 120 meta PvP? At that point people are hitting soft caps on stats and single damage type weapons generally win (though not by a huge amount in most cases IIRC).

 

[Caim]

Weird, I always read that split weapon damage is always inferior because of how resistances work.

I've been digging a bit, and I've found this post that goes into the math.

TL;DR version: damage scaling is not linear. The bigger damage you do, the less it is affected by your target's defense. At 40/10 a two-handed Zweihander +15 deals 540 damage, while a Lightning Zweihander +5 deals 325/325. The latter has a higher sum, but because those two numbers are more affected by scaling, the big 540 will deal more damage. This is on top of the fact that only a few monsters in DS1 are resistant against regular damage (the slimes come to mind), making it even more effective.

While the damage difference will be more pronounced near the end of the game, elemental weapons are a massive boon for casters. That 650 total damage Zweihander can be wielded at only 16/10, which is a manageable investment for any caster build so that they can put more levels into their casting stats. Remember that in Dark Souls 1 you cannot respec, so all levels have to count.

 

[Blaine]

By SL 100 at the latest, a caster will have put around 53 points above an assumed baseline of 8 (give or take a few points, depending on desired slots) into ATN and INT/FTH. The reasonable soft cap and spell prerequisite ceiling for both are right at 50.

That's +20 VIT, +10 END, and +20 STR/DEX available to non-casters—an absolutely enormous difference, though as noted, casters are thrown a bone in the form of INT/FTH-scaling weapons. Meanwhile, anyone and their cat can bring along a couple slots of strong pyromancy for four points of investment (and around 500,000 souls, but who's counting), and a total added weight of 0—so non-casters aren't without some options.

There's no doubting the power of dedicated casters in PvE. I'll need to get into some PvP to test Dark Bead and Pursuers here before too long.

 

[The_Mask]

Okay, so it's been a while since I've discussed mechanics, and so I might be wrong, but here we go:

1. PvE

a) the base game has a lot of differences as far as weakness and strengths of mobs. Skeletons, for example, are weak to clubs, and blunt weaponry. Some mobs, like the ones from the Painted World of Ariamis, are subjected to the characteristics of that world, so the PWoA are weak to fire. Most of the time things are obvious. Sometimes they're not.
For example Gwyn is weak to... fire and occult. Despite him wielding a flaming sword. For this you have to pay attention to lore.
b) the expansion follows pretty much the same when it comes to regular mobs, but not when it comes to bosses. Bosses in the expansion have no damage type, or elemental weaknesses, nor are they weak to Holy/Occult.

2. PvP

Split damage is obviously bad just by looking at the stat screen. Shooting with 1 type of damage means it's mitigated only once. Not that hard to figure out.



Hence the perpetuated mantra that most DS players know: "Split damage is bad. Just go normal upgrades and spice it up with resin or other buffs, if you want to."

But, as I said in 1. a) - the base game will respond with either resistant or weakened mobs, depending on the damage type your weapon has, and any elemental effects.

 

[Blaine]

Yes, flaming clubs work great on skeletons and plenty of other things, too.

Shame you have to finish the Catacombs to get access to fire upgrades. It's almost like that was on purpose!

Pure magic is actually quite strong (if not as strong as fire) against skeletons and most undead too, though, so that doesn't really affect me.

 

[Silverfish]

Shame you have to finish the Catacombs to get access to fire upgrades. It's almost like that was on purpose!

You don't, though. All you have to do is start from the catacombs' first bonfire, don't activate the second, work your way down to Vamos (takes like 5 minutes with a divine weapon), and after making your fire weapon, homeward bone back to the starting bonfire. Wading through wheel skeletons isn't necessary.

 

[Blaine]

I think my point is that if I can survive the Catacombs at all in order to reach Vamos (not to mention handle Painted World wheel skellies), then I could as easily get by without one and hardly notice.

Anyway, I get it: You have to leap through the fire to grab your flame-resistant hat in order to proceed through fire world more easily. Common concept in games.

Lately I've been Phalanx farming. It takes some finagling to do properly and consistently, namely silver knight armor AND the poise ring, in order to soak a couple of stabs and get Firestorm off, but it's fun and profitable to take revenge on those little shits.

 

[Blaine]

Two things:

I got the avelyn in only two tries, and the Duke's Archives represent some of the shittiest level design I've seen in DS.

The library consists of two symmetrical mirror-image boxes placed end to end, one literally darker than the other just so you can tell the difference between each half; and on toward the Crystal Caves, a flat square of grass with golems plonked down on it.

The enemies are more obnoxious than lethal (I died once, from a fall while trying to get the avelyn), and too numerous considering how repetitive they are.

And then there's the unwinnable boss fight, a thing that shouldn't ever have been in a Souls game. I knew it was coming, but it has no business in the game.

Total shit area in pretty much every way.

 

[The_Mask]

And then there's the unwinnable boss fight, a thing that shouldn't ever have been in a Souls game. I knew it was coming, but it has no business in the game.

I will present my rebuttal. Ha-ha! (incoming wall of text)

The initial Seath fight is actually very well made from several points of view: logical, lore-wise and even mechanical.

- Newbie perspective flowchart:
1. panic -> death -> ??? -> resignation -> moving forward
(this is the most common path; unironically dubbed by the Codex in other areas of our forum as the neanderthal or smooth brain approach. You win simply because you're too stupid to get it)
2. panic -> cowardice (!!!) -> turn around -> exit the encounter -> process information -> retry as needed -> advance unscathed (most likely)
3. no panic -> melee -> safe in safe cubby -> process information -> die safely
-> die leaving bloodstain (both these deaths are with an understanding of what just happened)
4. no panic -> ranged (most likely a caster, w/ high INT) -> slow death w/ possiblity of being cursed

- Experienced perspective flowchart:
equip ring -> if HP low, pass with no issues
-> if HP high, pass with curse (learning a new lesson)

- Expert flowchart:
Equip the right ring -> pass with 0 issues



Everything that can happen to you is in accordance to lore. This is the game's way of making you realize that wisdom will always triumph over intelligence. And Seath is all about magic and intelligence. Same with Logan, which DOES NOT go hollow, but instead he goes insane.



Now, unironically, this is also the only encounter that allows cowards and idiots to pass easily (albeit a toll), which always makes me smile.

Spoiler

Sorry Blaine, The Archives and the Crystal Cave are my favourite areas of the game. :D

I always found it interesting that, indirectly, this encounter teaches one that it is okay to be afraid of someone smarter. At least until they become just as smart themselves.

 

[Blaine]

As I've said many times before over the years, a game's (or novel's, or film's) lore is never an excuse or amelioration for deficiencies or poor choices in other areas of design or production. Lore is and must always be subservient to good design and quality production.

The heart of this "mystery" is that the boss is invincible, and the player must die, once. Railing against an essentially endless health bar is the only means to solve the mystery. It's extremely simplistic, and I have no idea why you're attaching any philosophical importance at all to it. Anyone could be forgiven for panicking and being confused by an unwinnable encounter with no foreshadowing, forewarning, or precedent elsewhere in the game.

I don't like this sort of thing in ANY game. It is a form of the plot armor trope, but for the boss. It's garbage.

Personally, I wore the Crimson set, the Bloodhsield, a regular ring of sacrifice, and then sat the controller down and went to pour my tea. What a truly profound preface to exploring the two big boxes, simple cylinder, big grass square, and shiny mess that came after.

 

[mediocrepoet]

As I've said many times before over the years, a game's (or novel's, or film's) lore is never an excuse or amelioration for deficiencies or poor choices in other areas of design or production. Lore is and must always be subservient to good design and quality production.

The heart of this "mystery" is that the boss is invincible, and the player must die, once. Railing against an essentially endless health bar is the only means to solve the mystery. It's extremely simplistic, and I have no idea why you're attaching any philosophical importance at all to it. Anyone could be forgiven for panicking and being confused by an unwinnable encounter with no foreshadowing, forewarning, or precedent elsewhere in the game.

I don't like this sort of thing in ANY game. It is a form of the plot armor trope, but for the boss. It's garbage.

Personally, I wore the Crimson set, the Bloodhsield, a regular ring of sacrifice, and then sat the controller down and went to pour my tea. What a truly profound preface to exploring the two big boxes, simple cylinder, big grass square, and shiny mess that came after.

Unwinnable fights in any game should just be fucking cutscenes. The worst is when you blow a bunch of consumables on them, etc. It's a shit mechanic in every game I've come across it in.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I get the idea is to make you feel hopeless and desperate, but yeah it does suck if you blow a bunch of rare consumables on a scripted event.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I get the idea is to make you feel hopeless and desperate, but yeah it does suck if you blow a bunch of rare consumables on a scripted event.

I get that too, but in my mind the biggest issue is it's never done anything for me except make me irritated at the designers. I don't even hate the villain more which I think is part of what their goal is. If the villain is loathsome, I probably already think he's a douche, and a cutscene will serve that just as well. If you're going to take agency away from the player, just go for it instead of having fights where you're clearly kicking the shit out of the other guy and either his health doesn't move or it does, but you lose anyway.

 

[The_Mask]

Lore is and must always be subservient to good design and quality production.

I disagree. I think design and production should serve the lore. Imagine the world, and build the game around it.

 

[Silverfish]

More to the point, it's not like you lose anything. Dying during the first Seath encounter actually advances your progress, so you don't have to deal with a long runback. DS1 doesn't have an HP penalty upon death like DS2 or losing the health bonus from using embers like DS3, so that's fine. The only thing you lose is however many souls you had on hand, which by the time you're at Duke's probably wouldn't be enough for a level up anyway. It's the ultimate non-issue.

 

[curds]

More to the point, it's not like you lose anything. Dying during the first Seath encounter actually advances your progress, so you don't have to deal with a long runback. DS1 doesn't have an HP penalty upon death like DS2 or losing the health bonus from using embers like DS3, so that's fine. The only thing you lose is however many souls you had on hand, which by the time you're at Duke's probably wouldn't be enough for a level up anyway. It's the ultimate non-issue.

Well, like others already said, you could blow a bunch of hard-to-get or expensive consumables the first time you fight him, which is very annoying.

I was lucky in that the first time I fought Seath he killed me so quick that I didn't have a chance to use any of that shit, and now I just pop on a ring of sacrifice and let it happen, so the whole thing doesn't bother me too much.

A cutscene would've been a better option than letting a first timer potentially think there was some trick to beating him and wasting all their shit.

I hadn't actually given it more than a moments thought before, but now I think about it, it's probably one of the worst design choices in what is otherwise a near flawless game.

 

[Silverfish]

Well, like others already said, you could blow a bunch of hard-to-get or expensive consumables the first time you fight him, which is very annoying.

Souls players wasting consumable items on their first crack at a new boss deserve whatever happens. Moreover, I thought one of the reasons we've all spent a decade praising this game was specifically because it didn't hold our hands and allowed us to fuck up occasionally.

 

[curds]

Souls players wasting consumable items on their first crack at a new boss deserve whatever happens.

Fair point.

Moreover, I thought one of the reasons we've all spent a decade praising this game was specifically because it didn't hold our hands and allowed us to fuck up occasionally.

We praise it because in most cases the player is learning something from their fuckups, some tactic we can use next time we fight that boss. With the first Seath encounter, it's not like you die but can do it again with newfound knowledge and succeed. You just die and never do it again.

It essentially is a cutscene, anyway, since there's nothing the player can do to change the outcome.

I'm personally not too bothered by it, like I said before. It's a minor flaw, really. But I also don't understand how someone could defend it.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Souls players wasting consumable items on their first crack at a new boss deserve whatever happens.

Fair point.

Moreover, I thought one of the reasons we've all spent a decade praising this game was specifically because it didn't hold our hands and allowed us to fuck up occasionally.

We praise it because in most cases the player is learning something from their fuckups, some tactic we can use next time we fight that boss. With the first Seath encounter, it's not like you die but can do it again with newfound knowledge and succeed. You just die and never do it again.

It essentially is a cutscene, anyway, since there's nothing the player can do to change the outcome.

I'm personally not too bothered by it, like I said before. It's a minor flaw, really. But I also don't understand how someone could defend it.

I'm actually talking about the mechanic in general. The most egregious ones that come to my mind are in Star Ocean 2 and Final Fantasy XIV, but every time I've seen it it sucks. Has nothing to do with handholding and everything to do with not even being a legitimate fight. It's not a win or lose situation, it's just a lose situation that you're forced to play through. When you realize it, you can just sit there and wait to be killed. It's a dumb design decision, even if it's in your sacred cow game.