From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Ivan]

Anyone try the Nightfall demo? Personally waiting for full release after Elden Ring

Spoiler

 

[NJClaw]

With ADP, you can pay a few points to make the i-frames not be shit. You can dump points into it to achieve i-frames roughly double those of DS1's fast roll (and fast roll is easier to maintain under load in DS2), meaning that ADP and AGL are for casuls.

DS1 fast roll has 13 i-frames.
With no Attunement and around 50 Adaptability, you can reach 111 Agility (14 i-frames). Dumping 50 more levels into Adaptability, you barely reach 116 Agility (16 i-frames). At 99 Adaptability and 99 Attunement, you get 119 Agility which probably means 17 i-frames (but I'm not sure).

 

[Blaine]

Fair point.

With 33 ADP and 2 ATN, 30 ADP and 13 ATN, or 28 ADP and 16 ATN (zero ATN slots, two, or three), you attain 13 i-frames, equal to DS1's fast roll. However, you retain those frames up to <70% equip load, as opposed to DS1's <25% equip load.

Yes, there are gradations in roll distance and stamina recovery that scale linearly with equip load, and these didn't exist in DS1. In my opinion, these gradations are a fantastic addition—but they can exist without the need of ADP/AGL.

Essentially, I consider ADP/AGL to be stat bloat and a dump stat. Worse, it—like the hollowing mechanic—is ass-backwards. New players will most likely have poor or at best mediocre i-frames for what is, for them, the most difficult portion of the game, and will therefore most likely learn to hide behind a shield. Counter-argue that, I dare any of you. You can't, because it's ironclad. I just finished killing the Pursuer on my second attempt with about half the DS1 fast roll i-frame count (I had to re-learn certain harsh realities about which way to roll and when to parry), but I've got hundreds of hours in the series.

(In case you're wondering, I hid on the ladder like a little bitch when he first appeared next to Cardinal Tower, and also hid behind corners when he appeared in Lost Bastille. I'm no casul, but I'm not a no-hit playthrough streamer, either.)

The one possibly semi-good thing that ADP/AGL do accomplish is that they allow truly lightweight, acrobatic characters to be more specialized stat-wise, whereas a shield turtle can ignore ADP and get more free points to spend, although they'll pay for it during the Pursuer and Fume Knight boss fights (among others, but certainly those). I dunno if giving non-rolling Cro Magnons more free points is an altogether good thing; although I should also mention that I think that Souls' increased emphasis on rolling out of the way of everything went too far somewhere along the line. It is an RPG and hiding behind a shield like a casul is viable, plus shield turtles are easy to kill in PvP.

 

[Silverfish]

New players will most likely have poor or at best mediocre i-frames for what is, for them, the most difficult portion of the game, and will therefore most likely learn to hide behind a shield. Counter-argue that, I dare any of you. You can't, because it's ironclad.

No, I agree. It's a damn shame that DS2 didn't offer heavy armor, polearms or ranged weapons to give players options outside of the agility / shield binary.

 

[Blaine]

No, I agree. It's a damn shame that DS2 didn't offer heavy armor, polearms or ranged weapons to give players options outside of the agility / shield binary.

Trash "argument." Lower i-frames at the beginning of the game due to lack of a dump stat is just as ass-backwards as an escalating maximum health penalty to punish failures that's only relevant until effigies can be farmed by the bushel.

Specifically, while those options do exist, training players the wrong way initially is objectively bad. The fact is that in the Souls series, evasion of enemies—in PvE, but especially in PvP, and even versus NPC phantoms—is the overall superior and emphasized approach, and with a much higher skill ceiling.

 

[OneManArmyGames]

Anyone try the Nightfall demo? Personally waiting for full release after Elden Ring

Gave it a quick try out of curiosity and found the attempt at a speedier combat quite clumsy, and the demo level being based on the Demon Ruins of all places didn't help either; so not a particularly good first impression.

I'll have a proper go at it once they release the full version but I fear that, as with Grimrukh's previous mods, it might be a collection of good ideas somewhat poorly executed.

 

[Rafidur]

is the overall superior and emphasized approach

Feels like Great Magic Shield is really close to being good. Just wish you could block earlier after a swing, and that the cast time was a mite faster.

 

[Silverfish]

Trash "argument." Lower i-frames at the beginning of the game due to lack of a dump stat is just as ass-backwards as an escalating maximum health penalty to punish failures that's only relevant until effigies can be farmed by the bushel.

Can't believe the role-playing game is more difficult early on. What were B-Team thinking?

Specifically, while those options do exist, training players the wrong way initially is objectively bad.

It would be, if utilizing spacing and timing with polearms, tanking with heavy armor (when DS2 is the friendliest game in the series to this style) or taking enemies out from a distance were the wrong ways to play, which they aren't.

 

[Wunderbar]

ADP was heavily disliked because devs did a poor job explaining how it works. Just renaming it into something like "Dodging" or "Nimbleness" would've helped a lot.

 

[Multidirectional]

I always disliked these hidden unexplained breakpoints for stats. This type of shit ensures I will be looking up game mechanics online to make certain I didn't miss anything important.

 

[Blaine]

Can't believe the role-playing game is more difficult early on. What were B-Team thinking?

The phenomenon we're discussing is objectively bad and best minimized. Games are ideally supposed to become more difficult as they progress. This is not only due to a potentially poor experience for beginners, but also because arranging things so that mechanics snowball in a veteran's favor makes things too easy for veterans—and that means things are more boring for them.

It's a pitfall that many games suffer from, especially (as you've noted) RPGs. However, the two mechanics I've mentioned that exist in DS2 but not in DS1 exacerbate the phenomenon—and that is indeed bad, a pitfall of the less wise b-team.

It's not excusable just because other games also become too easy as they progress, especially when 1.) DS2's actual predecessor didn't suffer from such ill-conceived decisions, and 2.) difficulty is a big part of the appeal of this series.

 

[Black Angel]

Did y'all forgot that ADP also affects using consumables? The act of trying to use consumables in the face of an enemy is already risky enough, so tying it to a stat is... idk, how do you guys justify that?

 

[Wunderbar]

how do you guys justify that?

there's nothing to justify. Making the usage of consumables more riskier is always good.

Just look at DaS3 where you can easily chug estus like five times mid combat. Awful.

 

[Black Angel]

there's nothing to justify. Making the usage of consumables more riskier is always good.

Just look at DaS3 where you can easily chug estus like five times mid combat. Awful.

Then you could just fix (as in, nerf) the speed time for using consumables so it's slower than what's considered "too fast" AND have enemies be more aggressive or use certain moves if you try to back off and use consumables. Tying it to a stat doesn't seem to be very wise.

Look at Sekiro; Sword Saint and even Genichiro (although in his case it could be cheesed, unfortunately) would rush your ass if you tried using consumables on their face.

 

[The_Mask]

I think that is the best part of Dark Souls: every frame was calculated in such a way that drinking Estus would always pose a moderate threat, unless you knew what you were doing.

By the way, this is one of the changes that the Remaster included that I do not agree with: having phantoms being able to chug Estus was a poor idea. Having you consider 12 FTH + 1 ATT slot just to be able to heal when summoned was very cool.

 

[Wunderbar]

there's nothing to justify. Making the usage of consumables more riskier is always good.

Just look at DaS3 where you can easily chug estus like five times mid combat. Awful.

then you could just fix (as in, nerf) the speed time for using consumables so it's slower than what's considered "too fast" AND have enemies be more aggressive or use certain moves if you try to back off and use consumables.

but it's already like that in DaS2. Chugging speed is nerfed, and a lot of bosses cancel whatever they were doing and rush straight at you once they notice that you are trying to heal.

Tying it to a stat doesn't seem to be very wise.

just another piece of dynamic difficulty - you can try to get used to slower chugging, or you can grind souls and upgrade ADP.

 

[Black Angel]

but it's already like that in DaS2. Chugging speed is nerfed, and a lot of bosses cancel whatever they were doing and rush straight at you once they notice that you are trying to heal.

just another piece of dynamic difficulty - you can try to get used to slower chugging, or you can grind souls and upgrade ADP.

But then you're back to square one; of having one stat that does everything. They did right by separating equip load and stamina from being affected by one stat; but now they have another stat that not only affects i-frames, literally THE most useful thing to have regardless of your build, AND the speed of chugging estus, your repair button for your mistakes allowance aka health.

The nerf to the chugging speed was awfully extreme, too, so the options here is just no-brainer.

 

[Wunderbar]

but it's already like that in DaS2. Chugging speed is nerfed, and a lot of bosses cancel whatever they were doing and rush straight at you once they notice that you are trying to heal.

just another piece of dynamic difficulty - you can try to get used to slower chugging, or you can grind souls and upgrade ADP.

But then you're back to square one; of having one stat that does everything. They did right by separating equip load and stamina from being affected by one stat; but now they have another stat that not only affects i-frames, literally THE most useful thing to have regardless of your build, AND the speed of chugging estus, your repair button for your mistakes allowance aka health.

yeah, a more elegant solution would be tying chugging speed to a ring slot.

Ring of Chugger

A ring that belonged to SumDrunkGuy, known codexer who liked to chug various drinks. Shortens estus chugging time.

Sumdrunkguy had a decent job at a steel plant, but was ruined after years of excessive debauchery.

 

[Black Angel]

yeah, a more elegant solution would be tying chugging speed to a ring slot.

Ring of Chugger

A ring that belonged to SumDrunkGuy, known codexer who liked to chug various drinks. Shortens estus chugging time.

Sumdrunkguy had a decent job at a steel plant, but was ruined after years of excessive debauchery.

Nah, the more elegant solution would be to tie chugging speed to your fps

 

[Silverfish]

but also because arranging things so that mechanics snowball in a veteran's favor makes things too easy for veterans

Luckily, this doesn't happen in every game ever conceived.

2.) difficulty is a big part of the appeal of this series.

Except in the early going, apparently.

Did y'all forgot that ADP also affects using consumables? The act of trying to use consumables in the face of an enemy is already risky enough, so tying it to a stat is... idk, how do you guys justify that?

Yeah, one of B-Team's biggest cock-ups was making an action rpg and then expecting players to utilize proper spacing and timing and taking the occasional calculated risk during combat. It's backwards design and goes to show just how inexperienced they were.

 

[NJClaw]

Silverfish

I'm sorry, man, but now every time you post all I read is this:

Artorias is just the dollar store Capra Demon.

All the letters in your posts rearrange themselves to form this cursed sentence before my eyes.

 

[Silverfish]

You're welcome.

 

[Black Angel]

Yeah, one of B-Team's biggest cock-ups was making an action rpg and then expecting players to utilize proper spacing and timing and taking the occasional calculated risk during combat. It's backwards design and goes to show just how inexperienced they were.

There are many, many, many ways to do whatever they wanted to do with ADP, like Blaine explained but you seemed to ignore, like tying these things to equip load; thus making it a clearer and surer way to decide whether you want to go light or heavy. And I'm pretty sure no one here actually actively goes against Fromsoft implementing mechanics that ties the Action to the RPG elements of their games, but how they do it left a lot to be desired.

But forgetting all of that for a second, (and I'm pretty sure I've said this before) I personally never really expect Fromsoft to get the RPG mechanics right, by the standards of (c)RPGs I've played like the quintessential Fallout, for example. And judging by the trend of DaS1 -> Bloodborne -> Sekiro, and, fuck, as disgusting as it is, Dark Souls 3, it seems they're more comfortable on concentrating their time and energy elaborating on action gameplay mechanics, of which I personally prefer but just as many people dislikes, can't please everyone, obviously.

But I'd still looking forward to Elden Ring, and how they're going to tie all the expertise in action gameplay they've accumulated so far, with RPG mechanics. Honestly, I don't want to put my hopes up in these two elements alone; Fromsoft's strength has always lies elsewhere, things that Wunderbar mentioned in another thread.

 

[Silverfish]

There are many, many, many ways to do whatever they wanted to do with ADP

Yes, including the adaptability and agility stats that they actually used. Tying performance to stats in a role-playing game isn't some egregious problem.

like Blaine explained but you seemed to ignore

I didn't ignore what he posted, I just don't agree with him.

expertise in action gameplay they've accumulated so far

 

[Black Angel]

"I think they could've done better than doing X and Y."

"Sure, they did it with X and Y."