From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[Blaine]

Most of my posts have been feel-good affairs at this point, largely because my criticisms of DS2 are contained in the DS1 thread, and so it's time to start bitching again—not even necessarily about things that are currently affecting me. Actually, bitching makes me feel good, too.

I'm somewhat far into the base game. I really want to throw balls of darkness, but then I remembered that not only were hexes nerfed repeatedly in the base game (they're still fine for base PvE, but they require INT, FTH, ATN, and cost souls), they were further nerfed by DLC enemies being extremely resistant to pretty much all forms of spell damage.

Well, it occurs to me I've never really properly played a FTH build. 40 or 50 FTH will also enable quite good pyromancy damage, as well as fire and lightning scaling on weapons, so that's the way I'm going to go. Free heals and a few spears on hand can't be bad.

 

[Multidirectional]

Reaching DLCs with a spellcaster once killed for me any interest I had in playing mages in this game ever again.

 

[Blaine]

Reaching DLCs with a spellcaster once killed for me any interest I had in playing mages in this game ever again.

There's something cool about hexes. It's not often you get to run through Hot Topic grabbing shit off the shelves to play a dark sorcerer in an aRPG that's actually good, and challenging.

As I mentioned a few pages ago, though, even DLC mooks start (START!) at around 2/3 spell damage reduction in DS2. It's absurd.

The key issue is that DS is and always has been a game in which combat is conceived, designed, and balanced to take place at point-blank range. Even when enemies also use ranged attacks, they cheat like bastards—arrows homing in on you, for example, curving around corners like a food prop dangling from an off-set string in a Three Stooges episode. The prop is "thrown" by Moe; the unseen puppeteer then makes it chase the antagonist of the day around a corner in a clearly artificial way for comedy value.

The developers want the arrows to move hilariously slowly so that they can be dodged in PvP (and by enemies doing literal shooting gallery routines, with the duck-themed targets spinning and changing direction), but they want them to hit the PvE player(s) as much as is feasible. It's a classic example of wanting to have your cake and eat it, too.

They want the appearance of archers and sorcerers (read: build diversity) in the game, and if the arrows and spells are hitting the player then that's all right; but they seem to hate it when the player uses them because, well, the game isn't really designed in such a way as to handle it. They can't make you roll, riposte, trade punishments, and so on when you're nuking and barraging your enemies. In DS1, precious few bosses can withstand a good melting from the blue laser—Artorias being one of the few; you still have to read him in order to nuke safely and not die.

The DS2 DLCs are a clear admission that, yes, we have failed to find a way to balance magic for use as a primary means of combat in PvE, and we're not even pretending anymore. Fuck you, use up all your spell uses in two out of the seven rooms between this bonfire and the next.

In DS3 they just made offensive ranged magic complete and total shit almost across the board, and limited it absurdly IIRC, but at least they stopped pretending.

 

[Multidirectional]

In DS3 they just made offensive ranged magic complete and total shit almost across the board, and limited it absurdly IIRC, but at least they stopped pretending.

I didn't try other types of magic but pyromancer run in DSIII was way easier to me than pure melee run. Not many enemies in that game are resistant to fire and even the ones that are didn't seem as bad in that regard as enemies in DSII DLC. And a lot of bosses that gave my STR char trouble were a complete joke with pyromancer. Boulder Heave for earlier bosses and Chaos Bed Vestiges later on.

 

[Average Manatee]

In DS3 they just made offensive ranged magic complete and total shit almost across the board, and limited it absurdly IIRC, but at least they stopped pretending.

It was weak but compensated by the fact that DS3 has a bonfire every 50 feet so running out of spells was never really a problem.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

In DS3 they just made offensive ranged magic complete and total shit almost across the board, and limited it absurdly IIRC, but at least they stopped pretending.

It was weak but compensated by the fact that DS3 has a bonfire every 50 feet so running out of spells was never really a problem.

Ashen flasks also gives you a lot more casts than the previous systems did.
It's conceptually really similar to DS2's system, except there is now a trade off between estus charges instead of just eating a weed.

 

[Multidirectional]

By the end of my DS III pyro run I was using 10 healing flasks and 5 mana flasks and it was alright, I didn't feel like I was running out of casts too quick. Especially since the game kept restoring my flasks as a reward for killing enemies pretty often.

 

[Blaine]

It's conceptually really similar to DS2's system, except there is now a trade off between estus charges instead of just eating a weed.

Yes, but in DS2 you can make it to the next bonfire without eating any weeds. I used a Soul Vessel to ordain myself a priest and walked from one Gutter bonfire to the next bathed in healing butter.

As others have mentioned and as I discovered to my deep chagrin, yes, in DS3, the next bonfire is just a stone's throw away—but that's a problem in itself, and an extremely serious one. I'm not even particularly upset about the spell system in DS3, because frankly that's just a footnote compared the elephant in the room that is DS3's worse than mediocre level design.

 

[Blaine]

Right, I'm coming up on the final stretch of the base game. I just finished up with the clusterfuck that is Black Gulch; small and linear though it is, the area is one of the strongest memories from my last playthrough. It's also one of the most farmable areas, and that includes the boss.

Lucatiel came within a hair's breadth of dying, despite my attempts to keep the boss's attention. Dumb bitch basically stood under his blade. I guess I'll need to grab a redeye ring if I hope to complete some of these NPC questlines.

I've realized that using mouse and keyboard when I last played through the game in 2017 really hampered me. This is just one of those games that plays best with a controller. I can reach up to my mouse to aim in first-person, but there's rarely a real need.

 

[Blaine]

I'd been playing a FTH build with a lightning rapier and lightning composite bow for a while. I realized that I now have access to cool shit like Throne Watcher's Griffith's armor, the Sanctum Shield, and Mace of the Insolent, so I started getting ideas.

I got a sex change, fully upgraded and dark-infused the mace and shield, mostly upgraded Griffith's armor, visited Things Betwixt, and I'm here to tell you this build is a lot of fun—although it would work better (AKA require less player skill) at a higher SL. All builds do, but "spread thin" ones particularly do.

It has just under 30% equip load thanks to Soldier's and Dragon rings, 12 i-frame rolls, excellent stamina regen with the obligatory +2 Chloranthy ring (the stupid graphics for which I've removed, at least until the servers come back up and I don't want to be softbanned), respectable defense that can be tweaked more toward magic or physical by swapping the expected rings, good offensive casting speed (explained momentarily), and tons of utility: virtually all of the utility sorceries (Yearn, Hush, etc.), spiced-down Profound Still, the various push/shockwave miracles and sorceries, heals and HoTs, and the ability to cast all miracles and hexes, albeit with garbage scaling on the face of it.

Because both the mace and the shield are mediocre at best for damage-oriented distance casting, I naturally experimented with upping the mace's dark damage by casting Dark Weapon with the shield.

And that's when I discovered that my +10 Witchtree Branch (which has 30 more casting speed than the Sunset Staff; also, the Sunset Staff is gaudy as fuck) receives the Dark Weapon bonus when you swap to it from Mace of the Insolent. Both the mace and the staff retain their Dark Weapon bonus until it expires, no matter how often you swap.

I tested this extensively at Heide's Tower and Undead Crypt, and the results were conclusive: Dark Orb consistently dealt 432 damage at max lock-on range versus the knights and Leydia pyromancers without Dark Weapon; with it, 566 damage was dealt (which, incidentally, one-shots Leydia pyromancers). At the same time, the mace continues to benefit from the buff when swapped to.

Needless to say, transgender grey witch-warrior lady is fun to play, and pretty decent (if not terribly elaborate) Fashion Souls as well.

 

[Blaine]

I can't for the life of me figure out what they were thinking with the Resonant series of hexes.

Resonant Weapon costs 2,000 souls to cast, occupies 2 spell slots, and lasts 60 seconds, yet adds only slightly (apparently +35% vs. +30%) more damage to your weapon than Dark Weapon--which occupies only one slot and lasts 90 seconds.

Resonant Soul costs 100 souls to cast, occupies two slots, and deals maybe 10% more damage than Dark Orb, which occupies only one slot and costs no souls to cast. Great Resonant Soul is obviously useful because it does get a big damage boost over Dark Orb (and there's no Great Dark Orb direct equivalent), but with far fewer casts.

On top of this, this Chime of Want and Caitha's Chime both max out at 287 Dark BNS with S scaling (though Want's S scaling is apparently slightly more potent than Caitha's S scaling), whereas the Sunset Staff tops out at 319 Dark BNS with S scaling. So not only are Resonant Soul and Resonant Weapon only slightly stronger than Dark Orb and Dark Weapon, at a huge cost, but the best chimes are inherently weaker than the best staff.

I must be missing something here, can anyone clue me in?

 

[Hassar]

Reaching DLCs with a spellcaster once killed for me any interest I had in playing mages in this game ever again.

There's something cool about hexes. It's not often you get to run through Hot Topic grabbing shit off the shelves to play a dark sorcerer in an aRPG that's actually good, and challenging.

As I mentioned a few pages ago, though, even DLC mooks start (START!) at around 2/3 spell damage reduction in DS2. It's absurd.

The key issue is that DS is and always has been a game in which combat is conceived, designed, and balanced to take place at point-blank range. Even when enemies also use ranged attacks, they cheat like bastards—arrows homing in on you, for example, curving around corners like a food prop dangling from an off-set string in a Three Stooges episode. The prop is "thrown" by Moe; the unseen puppeteer then makes it chase the antagonist of the day around a corner in a clearly artificial way for comedy value.

The developers want the arrows to move hilariously slowly so that they can be dodged in PvP (and by enemies doing literal shooting gallery routines, with the duck-themed targets spinning and changing direction), but they want them to hit the PvE player(s) as much as is feasible. It's a classic example of wanting to have your cake and eat it, too.

They want the appearance of archers and sorcerers (read: build diversity) in the game, and if the arrows and spells are hitting the player then that's all right; but they seem to hate it when the player uses them because, well, the game isn't really designed in such a way as to handle it. They can't make you roll, riposte, trade punishments, and so on when you're nuking and barraging your enemies. In DS1, precious few bosses can withstand a good melting from the blue laser—Artorias being one of the few; you still have to read him in order to nuke safely and not die.

The DS2 DLCs are a clear admission that, yes, we have failed to find a way to balance magic for use as a primary means of combat in PvE, and we're not even pretending anymore. Fuck you, use up all your spell uses in two out of the seven rooms between this bonfire and the next.

In DS3 they just made offensive ranged magic complete and total shit almost across the board, and limited it absurdly IIRC, but at least they stopped pretending.

I always found this odd because there are enough utility spells and miracles to just outright take out the arrow and spear spells, thus preserving melee’s primacy, with minimal negative thematic impact. But yeah, most of the DLCs were not fun for magic users.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I can't for the life of me figure out what they were thinking with the Resonant series of hexes.

Resonant Weapon costs 2,000 souls to cast, occupies 2 spell slots, and lasts 60 seconds, yet adds only slightly (apparently +35% vs. +30%) more damage to your weapon than Dark Weapon--which occupies only one slot and lasts 90 seconds.

Resonant Soul costs 100 souls to cast, occupies two slots, and deals maybe 10% more damage than Dark Orb, which occupies only one slot and costs no souls to cast. Great Resonant Soul is obviously useful because it does get a big damage boost over Dark Orb (and there's no Great Dark Orb direct equivalent), but with far fewer casts.

On top of this, this Chime of Want and Caitha's Chime both max out at 287 Dark BNS with S scaling (though Want's S scaling is apparently slightly more potent than Caitha's S scaling), whereas the Sunset Staff tops out at 319 Dark BNS with S scaling. So not only are Resonant Soul and Resonant Weapon only slightly stronger than Dark Orb and Dark Weapon, at a huge cost, but the best chimes are inherently weaker than the best staff.

I must be missing something here, can anyone clue me in?

I would assume its for hex builds that lean more heavily on the faith rather than the int side.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I can't for the life of me figure out what they were thinking with the Resonant series of hexes.

Resonant Weapon costs 2,000 souls to cast, occupies 2 spell slots, and lasts 60 seconds, yet adds only slightly (apparently +35% vs. +30%) more damage to your weapon than Dark Weapon--which occupies only one slot and lasts 90 seconds.

Resonant Soul costs 100 souls to cast, occupies two slots, and deals maybe 10% more damage than Dark Orb, which occupies only one slot and costs no souls to cast. Great Resonant Soul is obviously useful because it does get a big damage boost over Dark Orb (and there's no Great Dark Orb direct equivalent), but with far fewer casts.

On top of this, this Chime of Want and Caitha's Chime both max out at 287 Dark BNS with S scaling (though Want's S scaling is apparently slightly more potent than Caitha's S scaling), whereas the Sunset Staff tops out at 319 Dark BNS with S scaling. So not only are Resonant Soul and Resonant Weapon only slightly stronger than Dark Orb and Dark Weapon, at a huge cost, but the best chimes are inherently weaker than the best staff.

I must be missing something here, can anyone clue me in?

I would assume its for hex builds that lean more heavily on the faith rather than the int side.

Also the resonant spells got nerfed hard years ago. Great Resonant Soul used to one shot people, etc.

 

[Blaine]

I would assume its for hex builds that lean more heavily on the faith rather than the int side.

They are, and my own build is 30 INT/42 FTH right now, but due to the way Dark BNS functions, there's very little stopping you from using staff hexes other than the potential need for an extra catalyst (2.0 weight, basically).

The thing is, none of the other chime-based hexes outside of the Resonant line are good enough in either PvP or PvE to justify the slot and souls cost of Resonant hexes. Profound Still is really the only one that springs to mind.

In fact, a lot of the best PvP hexes are staff-based: Dark Orb deals stamina damage and can stagger, Affinity is nearly a must for pressuring, Dark Greatsword can be used to surprise and punish melee closing distance on you, etc. Profound Still is the potent chime-based hex vs. casters.

Also the resonant spells got nerfed hard years ago. Great Resonant Soul used to one shot people, etc.

It's basically this, I think. GRS in particular became a huge meme and was nerfed a number of times, but they continued to let Resonant spells hog slots and suck souls even after nerfing the Resonant line to be hardly better than Dark Orb in the long run (or when they are more damaging, as in the case of GRS, with far fewer casts).

 

[Caim]

I can't for the life of me figure out what they were thinking with the Resonant series of hexes.

Resonant Weapon costs 2,000 souls to cast, occupies 2 spell slots, and lasts 60 seconds, yet adds only slightly (apparently +35% vs. +30%) more damage to your weapon than Dark Weapon--which occupies only one slot and lasts 90 seconds.

Resonant Soul costs 100 souls to cast, occupies two slots, and deals maybe 10% more damage than Dark Orb, which occupies only one slot and costs no souls to cast. Great Resonant Soul is obviously useful because it does get a big damage boost over Dark Orb (and there's no Great Dark Orb direct equivalent), but with far fewer casts.

On top of this, this Chime of Want and Caitha's Chime both max out at 287 Dark BNS with S scaling (though Want's S scaling is apparently slightly more potent than Caitha's S scaling), whereas the Sunset Staff tops out at 319 Dark BNS with S scaling. So not only are Resonant Soul and Resonant Weapon only slightly stronger than Dark Orb and Dark Weapon, at a huge cost, but the best chimes are inherently weaker than the best staff.

I must be missing something here, can anyone clue me in?

Just wait until you reach the Climax.

 

[Blaine]

Obviously, I'm going to need a maxed-out Chime of Want and a maxed-out Staff of Wisdom to really test properly. Some sources claim that Resonant Soul deals at least 20% more damage, has 50% more max range, and boasts a higher projectile velocity compared to Dark Orb—and that is significant, especially if it means needing to carry just one chime to cast your hexes and non-lightning miracles.

The Sanctum Shield is great, except that it lacks the greatest asset of a small shield: parrying ability. I like that it encourages me to roll more, but when I do need to use it, every melee hit harder than the touch of a feather causes a mini-stagger and resultant delay. So, for the moment, I've switched back to lightning rapier, which works very well indeed with Dark Weapon stacked onto it—and can parry with its strong attack.

Parrying and rolling are Neanderthal tier and blocking is Cro Magnon tier, but the fact is that when slogging an area, farming Dragon Aerie, etc., one doesn't always want to be one one's toes every single second; also, you can't parry a spell (with most shields), and you're not entirely free to roll if you're traversing one of the many, many, really quite ubiquitous narrow pathways and ledges that seem to be pretty much everywhere in this game. If it isn't a boxed-in gank room, then it's probably the edge of a cliff.

 

[Blaine]

But seriously, a roadkilled sloth could pull off the rolls necessary to dodge the Giant Lord's attacks.

 

[Average Manatee]

If anything seems weird or underpowered in magic in DaS2 you can generally assume the answer is "it was fine on release but the balance bat was swung".

In a sense the series is a victim of the fact that skilled players can beat the game naked SL1 since at that point it doesn't really matter to the devs whether one spell is just 25% worse than the competition in every way.

 

[Blaine]

In a sense the series is a victim of the fact that skilled players can beat the game naked SL1 since at that point it doesn't really matter to the devs whether one spell is just 25% worse than the competition in every way.

I've always maintained that balancing a game based on extremely experienced and highly skilled players is the epitome of dumb unless that's the primary type of player you're catering to, for example in some online shooter that only a few hundred people play anymore.

Yet, time after time, developers get their feelings hurt and/or feel that weaknesses in their game have been humiliatingly exposed by someone with the reflexes of a secretary bird who's been playing their game for 4,000 hours. That type of player will dominate no matter how you tinker with your game, so it's futile to even try to bring them in line. Not even GRS being "OP" was ever an actual problem for such players—and low-skill players weren't going to win much anyway.

There is, I suppose, a case to be made if tons of low-skill players were OHKOing each other with GRS. Probably that was exactly what was happening, but all things considered, who gives a damn? Even pre-nerf, you'd have been better off with Dark Orb in PvE anyway, which is what I care about (in this context, that is). It just annoys me that the Resonant line remains nerfed in PvE as well, meaning there's rarely ever a reason to use it unless you're LARPing a dark priest who strictly eschews wizard-flavored magic. Even versus bosses, you are better off just using Dark Orb, taking slightly longer, and saving yourself tens of thousands of souls.

 

[Blaine]

Well, I defeated Darklurker. It was a close thing, but my only death was the obligatory dunk into the water crevasse abyss at the very beginning. Holy shit, I truly despise the Japanese.

I immediately upgraded the Dragon Chime to +10, infused it with lightning, soul vesseled to a high FTH build, and ran off to throw GLS at the last two guardian dragons in Dragon Aerie prior to applying an ascetic.

I couldn't be more underwhelmed. At 50 FTH with a +10 best-in-game lightning chime, GLS deals barely more damage (<600) to an enemy that is weak to lightning than Dark Orb deals to just about any enemy when cast with a suboptimal staff. I can pretty much guarantee that Dark Orb would deal nearly as much to your average enemy if cast with a maxed and infused Sunset Staff. On top of this, GLS has a noticeably slower cast time and 1/4 of the casts per slot.

On the genuine plus side, the first dragon dropped Flame Quartz Ring +2, and the second dropped Fire Tempest.

Ah, well. I'm mainly annoyed that I have to farm this area repeatedly in order to upgrade additional weapons, because I love to experiment, and at this late stage of the game, you really need a fully upgraded thing (unless it's a shield or armor piece, but higher stability and chest piece stats do help) to truly get a feel for its potency. I now have a chime that ate most of my remaining Twinkling Titanite that I likely won't get as much use out of as I'd rather.

 

[deem]

Borat making a start in Drangleic.

 

[Blaine]

Damn, he even went the speedrunner route and ganked Maughlin.

That reminds me of this classic:

 

[Blaine]

Went to farm a bit of Twinkling from Amana (just needed a few, couldn't be fucked to deal with high-effort Aerie farming), then set off for Brume Tower, having finished Sunken King and the Velstadt clown car yesterday.

It seemed a bit rough, even despite the fact that it's the premier gank room DLC and I'm playing a hexer. The mooks are piss-easy to parry or backstab, but when I did take hits, wagonloads of HP set off down the old dusty trail.

I made it to the first bonfire just fine, no deaths, and then I realized I was still in Covenant of Champions.

Probably I'll continue this way, although I'll most likely crash and burn hard once I reach Fume Knight.

 

[Caim]

From what I've seen Fume is either a massive roadblock or something you can make your way through on preserverence alone if you figure out his attacks.

Make sure you use your sticks on the ashen hoes first otherwise the fight will be Not Fun.