From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[Jasede]

No, you keep failing to get it.

It'd be /fine/ if it was a trap /if/ there was a way to avoid it other than having to pack a specific spell. There should be an alternate route or a spot you can fall where you take no damage.


We like fall damage.
We don't like fall damage you /can't avoid/. It's like the mark of a bad FPS. And yeah this isn't an FPS.

 

[DragoFireheart]

No, you keep failing to get it.

It'd be /fine/ if it was a trap /if/ there was a way to avoid it other than having to pack a specific spell. There should be an alternate route or a spot you can fall where you take no damage.


We like fall damage.
We don't like fall damage you /can't avoid/. It's like the mark of a bad FPS. And yeah this isn't an FPS.

There exist options but you refuse to use them.

The fall does not kill you, you can easily roll behind the fat-ass demon and the damage you took won't matter anyways. There's a bonfire right next to the pit so the excuse of "can't avoid fall damage" is shit because you can heal after.

 

[aris]

Are you deliberately trying to miss the point we are so obviously making?

 

[DragoFireheart]

Are you deliberately trying to miss the point we are so obviously making?

Forced fall damage is not flawed game design. It forces you to mange your healing items.

That's like complaining about the swamp because it has "forced" damage that the player can't do anything about unless they use a specific item/spell.

 

[Serious_Business]

Are you deliberately trying to miss the point we are so obviously making?

Hello gaudaost

I'd like to enter into a civil conversation with you.

My first point that I'd like to introduce is : git gud casul

 

[aris]

There's only one thing to say here:

 

[DragoFireheart]

There's only one thing to say here:

You are absolutely correct.

I agree that Skyrim is probably your cup of tea. No forced fall damage in that game!

 

[Zep Zepo]

I used to play Dark Souls, then I took an arrow to the knee suffered forced fall damage. Now I play Skyrim.

Zep--

 

[Tehdagah]

Are you deliberately trying to miss the point we are so obviously making?

Forced fall damage is not flawed game design. It forces you to mange your healing items.

That's like complaining about the swamp because it has "forced" damage that the player can't do anything about unless they use a specific item/spell.

Manage? No, it forces you to waste a healing item for no reason.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Manage? No, it forces you to waste a healing item for no reason.

Then cast Fall Control if you are paranoid about fall damage.

 

[Declinator]

Manage? No, it forces you to waste a healing item for no reason.

Then cast Fall Control if you are paranoid about fall damage.

If you haven't invested any souls in magic at that point it would be a considerable sacrifice for such a small reason. A warrior for example could have 8 attunement and 9 intelligence and if Fall Control takes 15 intelligence that would be 8 levels right there. (attunement 8->10 + int 9->15)

While I was somewhat annoyed at the Nito drop, I think it's fine as long as there is a way to avoid it and it seems magicians can do so. Just like a speech or lockpick skill can open new ways in Fallout or how you'll find that avoiding traps is difficult in BG2 if no-one in your party has the proper skill. This one just seems to be a bit less consequential and more difficult to have the proper skill at that point of time. Might be interesting if the Souls games introduced more of these kinds of mechanics. E.g. strength checks for breaking a door.

 

[DragoFireheart]

If you haven't invested any souls in magic at that point it would be a considerable sacrifice for such a small reason.

C&C.

 

[Jasede]

I can't believe you don't get this.
Any good game ought to be able to be beaten without taking damage, providing you play perfectly. On the first try, in theory.
Do you understand now?

It's not a huge deal, but it's always been one of the most important things in game design to avoid forced damage. Look at Bayonetta or God Hand-- if you were a god you could, in theory, without any spoilers or hints, beat them without ever getting hit on the first try. Same for good shoot 'em ups. It's just a hallmark of great design.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I can't believe you don't get this.
Any good game ought to be able to be beaten without taking damage, providing you play perfectly. On the first try, in theory.
Do you understand now?

Yes.

Stray Demon is an optional boss that is not required to beat the game.

 

[aris]

Nito and Pinwheel aren't though.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Nito and Pinwheel aren't though.

Shouldn't you be playing Skyrim?

 

[Gentle Player]

[...]it forces you to waste a healing item for no reason.

There is a reason: you are traversing hostile terrain. It's not really a big deal, I wouldn't be bothered if it was removed, but I personally like the fact that there are some areas that go further in creating the illusion of a dangerous world - after all, it makes sense that in a decrepit tomb the only forward would be harmful. It reinforces the overall theme of the game. From a gameplay point of view, I think the boss fights are balanced with the fall damage in mind - Pinwheel is piss easy, there is ample time to flask at the start of the Nito fight, and the stray demon allows you to back off and flask when he does his stomp attack. But I suppose the Great Hollow is better designed, the falls are much more dangerous, even lethal, but you can avoid damage entirely with due care.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

i have no problem with stray demon fight at least the first time u fight him. its like bug fuck u to all those overprepared faggots with high vit(better have a lot hp ) it takes you from your comfort zone of 1800hp and taking 3 hits in a row from a boss at the beginning of a fight to a "run, move, heal or dodge like a madman". nice surprise. ofcourse From could have a second hidden way to stray D once you "discovered" falling floor. but japs gonna japs

 

[aris]

It's not really a problem in terms of survival. I never died due to the fall damage. It's just bad design, that's all.

 

[Invictus]

I really didn't mind the drops from pinwheel and nito, you get plenty of time to heal up there. The stray demon seemed kind of a Gotcha! moment; you get whacked in the first try and if you didnt use the bonfire you are screwed but at least there are option like using the slowfall spell, getting out of that heavy armor and trying something lighter (since fall damage is dependant on your weight) or simply dealing with the handicap of over half your health gone to start the fight like Gentle Player says
Yeah it can be kind of unfair but its like rolling of the ledge where Snuggly is; that is just the way the game is
The poison in the swamps, the archers in Anor Londo, the ghosts in New Londo (which you don't know can only be hit when cursed) these are all examples of the game pulling fast ones on you to make you learn on your feet.
If they fix this sort of thing I won't mind much but neither if there are falls like that

 

[Blackguard]

I don't really see how forcing you to start a fight a with less than full HP bar is somehow automatically bad game design. It's a handicap you need to overcome just like any other.

 

[Kanedias]

I think the Stray Demon is bad design because of the whole fight, not only the fall damage. Just like Capra Demon, it's a fight that gets decided in the first seconds. If you managed to fall correctly and didn't get hit by his inevitable AoE, you win, if not, you die almost instantly. Of course this depends on how much HP you have, but usually if you get hit by an AoE the moment you fall you die. The difficulty of the fight is only surviving that stupid fall and the first attack of the Stray Demon. You do that, and then it becomes a boring game of whacking his ass and sometimes moving away when he slams down his staff. I don't mind forced fall damage, I mind how the entire thing plays out. It's more about the boss moveset than the fall, actually.

The Capra Demon is the same thing, and there's no fall: the fight gets decided in the first seconds. If you get stuck by the door with the dogs and the boss, you win, if you manage to make it to the stairs, you can easily kill the dogs and then the boss fight is basically solved. They're both one trick ponies that rely on the first seconds of the fight to kill you.

I don't think they're hard bosses, by the way. They're just annoying and boring. Luckily all DLC bosses averted this and were awesome, I hope the ones in Dark Souls 2 end up being like this.

 

[Murk]

Capra Demon is what D&D players would call a closet troll encounter. Generally it's a cheap but effective way to force you into a crisis with an enemy that is otherwise not a challenge --> Capra in demon ruins is a snooze fest (yes his stats/hp are lower, but I mean the difficulty in dodging and avoiding), and really I think most people die because the dogs stun/block their path and not really to Capra's jumping attack (at least, not after the first time). It's like facing a troll in a closet -- trolls are not hard to fight, but if you can't stay out of their reach then you're gonna get fucked up in a manner that is disproportionate to their CR/level.

I'm actually OK with that design philosophy; it seems like a total shock at first but in hindsight there's always some clue to let you know you're in for trouble.

Lower burg has dogs and hollows jump-attack-surprise-sodomizing you twice; guess what -- boss is surprise butt secks + dogs.

Hellkite Wyvern toasts you on the bridge; last time you encountered him was completely unexpectedly on a bridge (and if you look up, guess where he flies).

Taurus gives you a warning with his battle roar, and the archers on the tower are a clear sign that there's a jumping point to plunge attack.

Stray Demon was not a surprise; you can hear him stomping around even after you fight Asylum Demon and I had noticed him in the obvious hallway outside of your cell. When I saw the locked door the first time and the hollows with torches on return, I already knew "oh, ok, now I can fight the guy in that hallway".

etc. etc. etc.

I'm fine with the fall on stray demon; I'm a bit annoyed with the fall on Nito because it can fugg up your RTSR setup; pinwheel is too easy to really bitch about (and you can have Leeroy kill him for you).

As for the run-back-to-boss 'git gud casul' shit, hey bro you can like tedium as much as you want but the whole point of me playing the SL1 challenge was just that; to git gud. I beat the game once on normal and thought "fun, but got too easy" so I started SL1. I learned to dodge and I learned to manipulate AI; but it was still tedious to run back to Manus for 2 minutes and then die in 30 seconds cuz I'm testing out dodges and distances on his patterns.

It clearly wasn't a game breaker or even a rage-quitter but it was tedium.

 

[praetor]

it's a fight that gets decided in the first seconds.

that's not bad design, that's just different. just like f.e. 4kings are basically a race against time, and unique that way in the game. that does not mean they're bad design. shit stuff like pushover pinwheel or boring seath (not talking about the 1st encounter.. that's obviously retarded. the boss in general is just awful) or bed of chaos (no need to explain), now that is just shit design

and stray demon doesn't always go AoE first thing, sometimes he gets stuck in the middle, sometimes he jogs to you, sometimes he does the overhead smash, sometimes he does the sideways swing... but if you dodge away from him, you always have time to heal and then run to his back. it's a pity he's such a pushover, because he drops a sure titanite slab he should've been way more brutal

"starting a boss fight with less than max HP" does not automatically mean "bad design", it's just another type of challenge. "because shmups and akshun games don't do it" is not a good argument

 

[Murk]

On the new stuff being reported I noticed the following:

respawn (enemies?) stop if you die a lot
respawn of enemies stops if you kill them

...ummm which is it? First one (first link Praetor posted to gaf) is least similar to other reports so I'm inclined to think it is incorrect.