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Editorial The Elder Scrolls V: What We Want to See

VentilatorOfDoom

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Tags: Bethesda Softworks; Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

<p>Gamesradar ponders how The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, the best RPG of all time, <a href="http://www.gamesradar.com/f/the-elder-scrolls-v-what-we-want-to-see/a-20100727104656838025" target="_blank">could be improved in a possible sequel.</a> They want concrete solutions to glaring flaws, flaws they didn't discover <a href="http://www.gamesradar.com/pc/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion/review/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion/a-2006032116531934065/g-20060112163636538018" target="_blank">back then</a> for some reason.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>Better (or no) encumbrance</strong><br />Encumbrance is always annoying in games. Nothing like the stupid reality of gravity to make a game unfun. We understand that it adds an element of strategy as the player must carefully consider what to carry on adventures, and that it feels a bit silly if you can carry twenty full suits of armor, a feast fit for a banquet hall, and more herbs than a medicinal marijuana facility, but at the same time, if you really want to use an encumbrance system, at least make it reasonable. We couldn&rsquo;t count how many times we were deep in a dungeon, discovered some amazing piece of armor, picked it up, and suddenly couldn&rsquo;t move. Then we had to shower pots, pans, and cheese wheels like a shoplifter at Costco.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/98968-the-elder-scrolls-v-what-we-want-to-see.html">Gamebanshee</a></p>
 
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commie

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Well RPG's are not exactly realistic, so it does seem stupid to have encumbrance as an option that you can't disable. It's just extra pointless tedium. After all, if you really want you can keep going back and forth, collecting loot from the same area and selling it. Annoying as fuck, but possible.
I just think that lack of encumbrance is a gameplay abstraction that helps rather than hinders as in Gothic where you could carry unlimited amounts of things.

Of course not all types of games should be like this and depending on the kind of RPG, you should have weight or backpack size limit to what you can carry, but particularly for sandbox games where exploring and looting is the order of the day, it's a real pain in the arse.
 

Darth Roxor

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They actually raise a handful of good points in that article too, but don't let me interrupt you.
 

Silellak

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VentilatorOfDoom said:
Gamesradar ponders how The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, the best RPG of all time, could be improved in a possible sequel. They want concrete solutions to glaring flaws, flaws they didn't discover back then.
Normally I'm all for slamming the gaming media, but the "Site X said this, and now they say that!" thing needs to go away. Unless both articles in question are written by the same author, all bets are off. If anything I think it's actually more admirable when the same website offers different points of view - even if those points of view are separated by a few years.

That said, Gamesradar itself is a pretty big joke, and consistently posts inflammatory and/or downright stupid articles for the hits rather than for the content of those articles. I mean fuck, right now on the front page they have this:

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/18-video-game-characters-made-massively-fat/a-2010072616521219022

Classy!
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Complaining about teh level sclaling!!!!! in oblivion is an excellent retard indicator.
 

FeelTheRads

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Mastermind said:
Complaining about teh level sclaling!!!!! in oblivion is an excellent retard indicator.

Considering Oblivion's level scaling anything else but absolute idiocy is an excellent subhuman indicator.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Sceptic said:
Mastermind said:
Complaining about teh level sclaling!!!!! in oblivion is an excellent retard indicator.
Do elaborate

"In Oblivion, all of the monsters level up as you do. It’s annoying for two reasons. One, what’s the point of leveling up if the monsters just get powerful along with you? It’s like not really leveling up at all. "

All (decent) games have progressively harder enemies. You deal with it by acquiring new options (better weapons, more spell options, etc.). Complaining that the game gets harder as you play it makes you a retard because games are supposed to get harder as you advance through them. In open world rpgs like oblivion, you are expected to eventually become too godly for enemies to kill, which you do, but complaining that you have to wade through progressively harder enemies to get there is the zenith of retard.

Now, some people make the opposite complaint: that because of leveling the game doesn't get any harder, it just stays the same. Except it does (not nearly enough if you know what you're doing, but that has nothing to do with the scaling as much as it has to do with the fact that beth couldn't design a challenging enemy to save their lives) because higher levels don't just make hostile and guard npcs stronger, they also start spawning stronger types of enemies you would not run into otherwise (coincidentally, this happened in morrowind too).
 

commie

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Mastermind said:
Sceptic said:
Mastermind said:
Complaining about teh level sclaling!!!!! in oblivion is an excellent retard indicator.
Do elaborate

"In Oblivion, all of the monsters level up as you do. It’s annoying for two reasons. One, what’s the point of leveling up if the monsters just get powerful along with you? It’s like not really leveling up at all. "

All (decent) games have progressively harder enemies. You deal with it by acquiring new options (better weapons, more spell options, etc.). Complaining that the game gets harder as you play it makes you a retard because games are supposed to get harder as you advance through them. In open world rpgs like oblivion, you are expected to eventually become too godly for enemies to kill, which you do, but complaining that you have to wade through progressively harder enemies to get there is the zenith of retard.

Now, some people make the opposite complaint: that because of leveling the game doesn't get any harder, it just stays the same. Except it does (not nearly enough if you know what you're doing, but that has nothing to do with the scaling as much as it has to do with the fact that beth couldn't design a challenging enemy to save their lives) because higher levels don't just make hostile and guard npcs stronger, they also start spawning stronger types of enemies you would not run into otherwise (coincidentally, this happened in morrowind too).

Actually I can understand scaling in a linear game because the point of leveling up isn't really to become stronger than the enemies but rather to give you points to distribute in order to shape your character in a particular style while keeping some kind of challenge. See Diablo and other types of aRPG type games, even KOTOR and the like.

For sandbox games though it's better to go the Gothic route of finite numbers and various levels of enemies. This makes exploring and leveling your character essential and rewarding while at the same time not making your character too overpowered(although for hardy gamers who really search every last crack for beasts and XP should get a bonus).
 

Luzur

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Elder Scrolls will never be as good as its earlier parts, its now all about getting the XCOCKS and PIECEofSHIT3 kids to buy the games to fill the coffers so Todd can make bigger explosions and brighter bloom in the next game.

That said, Gamesradar itself is a pretty big joke, and consistently posts inflammatory and/or downright stupid articles for the hits rather than for the content of those articles. I mean fuck, right now on the front page they have this:

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/18-video-ga ... 6521219022

Classy!

feeder fetishism has come to the gaming media.
 

FeelTheRads

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commie said:
Actually I can understand scaling in a linear game because the point of leveling up isn't really to become stronger than the enemies but rather to give you points to distribute in order to shape your character in a particular style while keeping some kind of challenge. See Diablo and other types of aRPG type games, even KOTOR and the like.

For sandbox games though it's better to go the Gothic route of finite numbers and various levels of enemies. This makes exploring and leveling your character essential and rewarding while at the same time not making your character too overpowered(although for hardy gamers who really search every last crack for beasts and XP should get a bonus).

Don't expect Mastermind to actually understand any of this. Don't get fooled by his username.
 

Silellak

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Mastermind said:
Sceptic said:
Mastermind said:
Complaining about teh level sclaling!!!!! in oblivion is an excellent retard indicator.
Do elaborate

"In Oblivion, all of the monsters level up as you do. It’s annoying for two reasons. One, what’s the point of leveling up if the monsters just get powerful along with you? It’s like not really leveling up at all. "

All (decent) games have progressively harder enemies. You deal with it by acquiring new options (better weapons, more spell options, etc.). Complaining that the game gets harder as you play it makes you a retard because games are supposed to get harder as you advance through them. In open world rpgs like oblivion, you are expected to eventually become too godly for enemies to kill, which you do, but complaining that you have to wade through progressively harder enemies to get there is the zenith of retard.

Now, some people make the opposite complaint: that because of leveling the game doesn't get any harder, it just stays the same. Except it does (not nearly enough if you know what you're doing, but that has nothing to do with the scaling as much as it has to do with the fact that beth couldn't design a challenging enemy to save their lives) because higher levels don't just make hostile and guard npcs stronger, they also start spawning stronger types of enemies you would not run into otherwise (coincidentally, this happened in morrowind too).
Level scaling is just a game design tool, and like any tool, if used properly and subtly, it can improve a game.

Unfortunately, Oblivion vastly overuses the technique. In a sandbox RPG, one of the largest aspects, if not the largest aspect, is the exploration of the world. Unfortunately, exploration quickly becomes pointless if every enemy you encounter and - more importantly - every piece of loot you find - is scaled precisely to your level. No more sneaking into the dragon's den at a low level to try and find the Sword of Whoopass - instead you'll encounter baby dragons guarding a Dagger + 1. Exciting.

The level scaling is the biggest issue with exploration in Oblivion, but far from the only one. The copy/paste auto-generated dungeons don't help matters - give me a dozen hand-crafted multi-level dungeons over a hundred "auto-terrain-generated" dungeons any day of the week. It is lazy and it shows. Once again, there's no point in exploring new places if they're all going to use the same half-dozen tilesets with roughly the same layouts. The fact that those copy/paste dungeons are filled with enemies and loot that are perfectly-scaled-to-your-exact-level really just adds insult to injury.

Without going into the overused voice actors, NPC models, and outdoor areas (WHO WANTS MORE FOREST? I DO!), Oblivion is quite simply a game based around exploration...where exploration is boring. The overuse of level scaling is directly - though not solely - responsible for that boredom.
 

Turok

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Let me see, Elders scroll serie got magic inside right? WHY DONT MAKE A FUCKING MAGIC MULE TO CARRY ALL YOUR STUFF? what about use magic to send a item to a place? i mean if i found 10 swords i want send then to a place then i can pay some magician in a town to teleport it to my stash or if i am high lvl and have the power to do it then i want do it myself.
 

Sceptic

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FeelTheRads said:
Don't expect Mastermind to actually understand any of this. Don't get fooled by his username.
Since he didn't even understand the complaint that he called retarded...

:M
 

Lingwe

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"In Oblivion, all of the monsters level up as you do. It’s annoying for two reasons. One, what’s the point of leveling up if the monsters just get powerful along with you? It’s like not really leveling up at all. "

All (decent) games have progressively harder enemies. You deal with it by acquiring new options (better weapons, more spell options, etc.). Complaining that the game gets harder as you play it makes you a retard because games are supposed to get harder as you advance through them. In open world rpgs like oblivion, you are expected to eventually become too godly for enemies to kill, which you do, but complaining that you have to wade through progressively harder enemies to get there is the zenith of retard.

Now, some people make the opposite complaint: that because of leveling the game doesn't get any harder, it just stays the same. Except it does (not nearly enough if you know what you're doing, but that has nothing to do with the scaling as much as it has to do with the fact that beth couldn't design a challenging enemy to save their lives) because higher levels don't just make hostile and guard npcs stronger, they also start spawning stronger types of enemies you would not run into otherwise (coincidentally, this happened in morrowind too).

I think you are displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of the problems with Oblivion level scaling.

The primary problem with Oblivion's level scaling is not that everything (including enemies and loot) is perfectly scaled to your level, that's the secondary problem, the primary problem is that it Oblivion's leveling system is totally unsuited to a scaling system where everything is perfectly scaled to your level.

With Oblivion's system you need to level up your major skills to upgrade your level. However you need to upgrade a certain number of skills to gain higher levels of attribute increases. To get the maximum +5 increase for an attribute you need to have 10 skill increases. To increase in level you need to level up your major skills 10 times.

You see the problem? If you choose to upgrade your major skills then you will very quickly rise in level. But you don't get the higher attributes. So you actually end up becoming weaker as you level up. The way around this is to either choose the skills you don't plan on using as your major skills, or to deliberately go out and raise skills that your character is not meant to specialise in. Either way it is completely counter-intuitive and therefore stupid shit.
 
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That's a problem with Oblivion's character leveling system. It exists along side the problem with Oblivion's level scaling system, but they are separate and distinct. Both detract from the game.
 

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