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The elephant in the room... An MMOBA

anvi

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I know there is a lot of ignorance of the world of MOBAs on the codex but you guys are old noobs and you know it. But you can't avoid the fact that LoL has at least 100 million players a month and there are a bunch of games that are huge too. MOBAs are fun, kind of action RPG but with real people in a tight group vs group setting.

Some of it is good, some of it isn't, but the combat is really interesting. The best one in my opinion is Heroes of Newerth which is the fastest and most complex out of all the MOBAs. There are split second reflexes required just to play to an ok standard, and beyond that you need enormous amounts of time and experience with 30+ heroes in the game just to even get close to being "good enough." The downside is that you have to learn all this through the exact same game mode, a small map with your team vs enemy team. Also you get screamed at constantly by the most toxic community on the planet.

EverQuest Next was said to have MOBA style combat and everyone said WTF?! But to me it is the obvious holy grail of gaming... That type of combat is so fun, so exciting, and so complex, that it keeps people playing those little 1 map games for years and years. So imagine that combat but in a huge open world MMO with lots of ways to make the most of it... You have the killer game, the first WoW beater probably. Remember, 100 million in LoL alone... Every MOBA player would want to play a killer MMOBA, and if it was good enough it would just take so many players from the existing ones. But you could also get the WoW booty too, if it was good enough...

100 million+ moba players wanting it for the combat, and 20+ million MMORPG players wanting it for the world to explore (and probably the combat too). The problem is, who has the sort of budget to go all in on this? Brad McQuaid from EverQuest said people estimated these types of decisions based on how much content the likes of WoW has. Why try to take on big games like that unless you can be bigger and better at everything? That is how people look at it, but to be bigger and better than WoW you need some enormous figure (I think it was something like $600m). Still, there are ways to do it cheaper. You could probably save $500m by just not doing it in a first person camera that scrolls out to 3rd person, although personally... that is main thing I'd like to see. Like Smite, but not stuck in the same corridor forever.
 

JarlFrank

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MOBA is one of the worst genres in the history of computer games because it pretty much killed off RTS. Fuck MOBAs. Even back in the day when I was at LANs with friends, they preferred playing some stupid "fun mods" or MOBA-style mods in Warcraft 3 than an actual game of Warcraft 3.

RTS > MOBA
 

anvi

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MOBA isn't anything like a RTS. It is Tower Defense that killed RTS, those games are basically the same thing just defending and building and no attacking. The only thing really like a MOBA is Nox. They are great games too, the problem is the skill level is incredibly high so it is brutal for new people. Also because they are all multiplayer, you really need good people to play with.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
In the competitive multiplayer scene, it's the RTS crowd that was pulled into MOBAs, though. Starcraft and Warcraft 3 players going into MOBAs where instead of basebuilding and managing an army of a dozen units, you only micromanage a single hero unit. It requires some of the same skillset as RTS, at least concerning the micro (high APM, knowledge of hotkeys and which special abilities to use when, etc), but it easier due to the action being restricted to managing a single hero unit rather than a bunch of units + basebuilding.

I find it to be an extremely boring genre, and it's sad that it has surpassed games like Warcraft 3 in popularity. Also, keep in mind that the genre as it is now was pretty much founded by a WC3 mod.
 

Lance Treiber

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How do you propose to marry the two concepts?

MMOs: You progress from 1 to 60 level, takes a month. Your wealth progresses slowly as well. Your progression feels like your personal achievement.
MOBAS: you progress from 1 to max level within 15 minutes. Your progression is a series of compromises between strategic objectives and personal wealth. This choice is what dictates the outcome of the game. And of course you spend ALL of your money as soon as you have some.
How do you marry that?
Only two ways, both of them are bad:
- Don't bring XP and money into the arena. You play always at your level. BUT: If there's no personal XP and wealth involved in a MOBA, then it's all about objectives and the choice&consequence aspect goes away, making it a much more shallow game. The strategic element dies.
- Play one character outside, different character inside. BUT: if, upon entering an arena, your character progression that happens outside arenas means nothing, then it's not marrying the two concepts, but sticking two games into one. Outside, your warlock level 35, but inside you always start at level 1 or you have absolutely different resources and abilities? It would also kill any incentive to even play the MMO part of the game, since it doesn't affect how you play the MOBA part.

MMOs: You choose a class and stick to it.
MOBAs: You get to pick a new class every game. Imagine playing arenas with the same character over and over again. What the hell?

MMOs: many different abilities, most of them - channeled. Can be used almost non-stop.
MOBAs: 4 abilities, most of them instant. Should be used rather sparsely.
Imagine grinding mobs for quests with Dota characters, with just auto attacks. Also an important point, in MMOs most classes clear mobs at the same speed more or less, while in MOBAs some classes specialize in this, others don't, and the difference in speed can go up to a factor 2.

Present us with a cohesive vision of a moba-mmo.
 

Alex

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MOBA is one of the worst genres in the history of computer games because it pretty much killed off RTS. Fuck MOBAs. Even back in the day when I was at LANs with friends, they preferred playing some stupid "fun mods" or MOBA-style mods in Warcraft 3 than an actual game of Warcraft 3.

RTS > MOBA

By that logic, RTSs are even worse than mobas since they killed turn based strategy games. I think mobas are awful, but because of what they are, not because of some consequence of their existence.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
MOBA is one of the worst genres in the history of computer games because it pretty much killed off RTS. Fuck MOBAs. Even back in the day when I was at LANs with friends, they preferred playing some stupid "fun mods" or MOBA-style mods in Warcraft 3 than an actual game of Warcraft 3.

RTS > MOBA

By that logic, RTSs are even worse than mobas since they killed turn based strategy games. I think mobas are awful, but because of what they are, not because of some consequence of their existence.

Did they though? There's more TBS out there than RTS, especially nowadays.
 

anvi

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In the competitive multiplayer scene, it's the RTS crowd that was pulled into MOBAs, though. Starcraft and Warcraft 3 players going into MOBAs where instead of basebuilding and managing an army of a dozen units, you only micromanage a single hero unit. It requires some of the same skillset as RTS, at least concerning the micro (high APM, knowledge of hotkeys and which special abilities to use when, etc), but it easier due to the action being restricted to managing a single hero unit rather than a bunch of units + basebuilding.

I find it to be an extremely boring genre, and it's sad that it has surpassed games like Warcraft 3 in popularity. Also, keep in mind that the genre as it is now was pretty much founded by a WC3 mod.
It is completely different to a RTS though, you only control one guy... It plays more like Diablo than any RTS.

How do you propose to marry the two concepts?

You make an MMORPG, you give it MOBA style combat. Imagine Shadowbane or DAOC but with intense combat.[/QUOTE]
 

Alex

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I think mobas are awful, but because of what they are
What are they? Session based games. Of which there are many genres.

Dunno, I haven't played that many of them. The ones I played, though, were pretty much dumbed down diablo clones. I don't even mean to be dismissive here, I do realize there is some strategy to the purchases and level up powers and what not, but trying to fit all that in a game that usually runs for less than one hour takes away too much of the enjoyment I might get from that.
 

anvi

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I think mobas are awful, but because of what they are
What are they? Session based games. Of which there are many genres.

Dunno, I haven't played that many of them. The ones I played, though, were pretty much dumbed down diablo clones. I don't even mean to be dismissive here, I do realize there is some strategy to the purchases and level up powers and what not, but trying to fit all that in a game that usually runs for less than one hour takes away too much of the enjoyment I might get from that.
That is exactly what they are. You only get about 4 abilities (although there are a lot more in some of the games), but the difference is that you play with 4 other people and then against 5 other people, and they all have 4 abilities and you need to know how all of those work and make sure you are not killed by them, and try to use it with your team to make epic destruction.

The skill is using the synergy between the abilities and the characters. It is really amazing... It is more like Streetfighter or Tekken, you have to learn to do your own combos and with other people and you have to learn how to be in the exact right spot at the right time etc. It takes a lot of work but it is amazing when you get good.
 

anvi

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Look at all this shit, a hundred million piles of it, there's got to be some reason for that popularity.

Maybe so, still not going to play wi it.
You have to, you owe it to yourself. Learn how bad you are at a game, even if you are good at FPS and various other games, you will suck balls at a MOBA and get destroyed by the bigger boys. And you only get good with massive amounts of time and effort getting gud. But it is very satisfying once you get good.

Also although each character only has several abilities, there are like 40+ characters and you need to learn them all.
 

Zarniwoop

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
MOBA?

That's that shitty mod for Warcraft 3 right?

tumblr_maiixf2Po81qz7gvgo1_250.gif
 
Unwanted

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because it pretty much killed off RTS
RTS killed itself.

I played LoL long time ago(recently learned my account got banned for shittalking... back in 2013) but got bored of it. Then played a bit of Smite but mostly the arena mode because that was what was actually fun in these games - teamfights.
 

markec

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Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
MOBA is one of the worst genres in the history of computer games because it pretty much killed off RTS. Fuck MOBAs. Even back in the day when I was at LANs with friends, they preferred playing some stupid "fun mods" or MOBA-style mods in Warcraft 3 than an actual game of Warcraft 3.

RTS > MOBA

I would argue what killed RTS was shit selection of games not MOBAs since last great multiplayer RTS was Company of Heroes from 2006.

I have bunch of friends that played CoH and stopped playing it because of rampart cheating, after that nothing came close to that game.
 

Agame

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Insert Title Here

Candy Crush makes 3.9 million a day, therefore it must be one of the greatest games ever made?

Maybe you should do a bit of research and you would soon discover that the quality of a thing is cheapened the more it is exposed to a mass audience, its no coincidence that "art" is and has been only properly appreciated by a very tiny percentage of the worlds population.

Anyway good luck on your promotion to a DUMBFUCK tag, I salute you in your journey Sir! :salute:
 

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