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commie

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What amuses me with this BG hate is that I always wonder who bought those games in the first place. Certainly no Codexer has bought it as they are both far too monocled for it, considering it popamole before the term was even coined, and also it was released at a time when you couldn't easily pirate such large games as as we all know, the Codexer is a master at raging at the death of the game industry while not buying a single game, good or otherwise.
The average Biotard player also considers the BG games to be some kinds of quaint historical documents at best, the original RPG's from the beginning of time. Shit, I doubt that even half of the ME2 generation have even bothered to play this.

So who actually bought and played BG that it supposedly ushered in the era of decline?
 

Rivmusique

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commie said:
So who actually bought and played BG that it supposedly ushered in the era of decline?

A friend of mine bought it, boxed copy with a map so I guess it was near it's release. I borrowed it off him like 6 years ago and still have it in my house. So that accounts for 1 buy!

EDIT: My bad it's BG 2 :(
 

commie

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Jaesun said:
commie said:
BG that it supposedly ushered in the era of decline?

Are you seriously asking that?

Well I'm not sure what you mean by highlighting a part of the sentence out of context. Do you mean that you think that I'm questioning that BG ushered in the decline? I certainly do question this Codexian thesis indeed. I think BG filled a market that existed between the Diablo and Wizardry/Might and Magic style games, but was in itself hardly responsible for any decline. Many people who bought it would never have bought a Wizardry 9 anyway and those that would have were not catered for by other companies regardless. DW Bradley tried with Wizards and Warriors, NWC kept it up with MMIX, then we had Ultima 9, Lands of Lore III...all around the same time as BG and most would agree that these were poor efforts and had nothing to do with BG suddenly changing the rules.

Put simply, the traditional RPG makers just fucked up all at once(reason for it is immaterial, the average gamer doesn't give a shit), leaving BG as the only franchise to do things competently and with style and quality(compared to the buggy, ugly, half-finished rivals at the time). BG also did not kill Fallout or PS:T. Those games not selling as well had nothing to do with BG and everything to do with the nature of the average gamer even then and the fact the the RPG playerbase was always a particular, demanding, tech savvy, slow growing group. People cry 'consoletard'! now, but back in the late 90's we had the 'Doomtards' and 'Warcraftards' demanding ease of play, low learning curve etc.(the only real difference between then and now is that back then these gamers still wanted to be challenged by these games) and after Unreal, a whole new demand in graphic whorism rose to the fore dominating the PC game industry and slowly strangling real innovation and other genres. Sure, the old FPS games were a world above the current crop, but they were still a marked lowering of the entry barrier to PC gaming at the time.


Rivmusique said:
commie said:
So who actually bought and played BG that it supposedly ushered in the era of decline?

A friend of mine bought it, boxed copy with a map so I guess it was near it's release. I borrowed it off him like 6 years ago and still have it in my house. So that accounts for 1 buy!

Well I actually bought a BG/ToSC pack in 1999(both proper boxes with everything, then I got BG2 in 2001 and ToB in 2004(spent a long time trying to find the big box original version just to complete the collection). None when new, all discounted, but hey, at the time the packaging and materials included were great. I think I enjoyed the manuals and the presentation more than the games(which I still haven't finished). I had expected a second coming of the Gold Box games in soul I guess what with the return to the AD&D license but got something somewhat less. There just was never anything compelling enough in the games themselves for me to finish them(or maybe I was distracted like many by the FPS graphic whoredom and simplicity though I finished Fallout and Fallout 2 around the same time and with relish.)
 

Jaesun

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commie said:
Jaesun said:
commie said:
BG that it supposedly ushered in the era of decline?

Are you seriously asking that?

Well I'm not sure what you mean by highlighting a part of the sentence out of context. Do you mean that you think that I'm questioning that BG ushered in the decline? I certainly do question this Codexian thesis indeed. I think BG filled a market that existed between the Diablo and Wizardry/Might and Magic style games, but was in itself hardly responsible for any decline. Many people who bought it would never have bought a Wizardry 9 anyway and those that would have were not catered for by other companies regardless. DW Bradley tried with Wizards and Warriors, NWC kept it up with MMIX, then we had Ultima 9, Lands of Lore III...all around the same time as BG and most would agree that these were poor efforts and had nothing to do with BG suddenly changing the rules.

Put simply, the traditional RPG makers just fucked up all at once(reason for it is immaterial, the average gamer doesn't give a shit), leaving BG as the only franchise to do things competently and with style and quality(compared to the buggy, ugly, half-finished rivals at the time). BG also did not kill Fallout or PS:T. Those games not selling as well had nothing to do with BG and everything to do with the nature of the average gamer even then and the fact the the RPG playerbase was always a particular, demanding, tech savvy, slow growing group. People cry 'consoletard'! now, but back in the late 90's we had the 'Doomtards' and 'Warcraftards' demanding ease of play, low learning curve etc.(the only real difference between then and now is that back then these gamers still wanted to be challenged by these games) and after Unreal, a whole new demand in graphic whorism rose to the fore dominating the PC game industry and slowly strangling real innovation and other genres. Sure, the old FPS games were a world above the current crop, but they were still a marked lowering of the entry barrier to PC gaming at the time.

Oh gawd... where do I begin........
 

Jaesun

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commie said:
Jaesun said:
Oh gawd... where do I begin........

fairydragon.jpg


:rolls up sleeves, cracks neck and knuckles:

BRING IT ON FAGGUT!!!!

;)
 

commie

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Jaesun said:
commie said:
Jaesun said:
Oh gawd... where do I begin........

fairydragon.jpg


:rolls up sleeves, cracks neck and knuckles:

BRING IT ON FAGGUT!!!!

;)

So says a faggy looking Cobra...


BG just catered for the faggots that wouldn't have played a RPG anyway. The traditional RPG was on the way out regardless, just as the space sims, flight sims, adventure games were...I suppose BG was responsible for their decline too?

Publishers were in the process of closing down RPG projects everywhere or turning them into shit like U9 long before BG existed or made money, so what do you have issue with? Have an issue with Carmack and Doom!

BG didn't decline the RPG industry because there was no more RPG industry anyway. The 150,000 copies that F2 sold were a piece of piss compared to what most publishers wanted or needed.

Why hate BG for making money?
 

commie

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FatCat said:
It's quite obvious that consoles ware reason for real decline.

Not just consoles but a specific one: the fucking XBOX. Before that consoles tended to have for the most past mutually exclusive titles compared to what the PC offered. The XBOX gave developers the ease of making one game to serve several platforms at once, and since consoles were always going to be more accessible to the average pleb than a PC, it was mathematically predictable as to what platform would become the focus of developers.



As for Jaesun and others who believe in the great Bioware conspiracy to destroy RPG's; consider a past where Baldur's Gate did not exist:

* Bioware would certainly not have existed and neither would have their subsequent games or Obsidian's improvement to the original IP's.

* Interplay would have gone bankrupt sooner, maybe wouldn't even have made it to release PS:T (certainly it wouldn't have published IWD 1 and 2, never mind ever getting as far with Van Buren as they did).

* 3DO/NWC would still have folded after making MM9. It wouldn't have been any better a game and wouldn't have sold any better.

* Sirtech would still have folded after making Wiz8. Game also wouldn't have sold any better.

* Troika if it still formed, would still have made barely playable buggy games and would have folded. This is assuming they could even find funding for their projects.

* Deus Ex, SS2, Arx Fatalis, Gothic, Morrowind may still have been made. Would have sold more or less what they would have were BG to have existed.

* Oblivion and Fallout 3 would still have been made. Bethesda didn't rely on anything from the Bioware model, and if anything, without the competition they may have dominated the market even more.

* The few mainstream publishers who still funded RPG's might not have even done so were they not encouraged by the success of BG. So many of the last great experiments by devs like Troika might not have even been possible were Sierra and Activision not at least somewhat encouraged by the possibility that RPG's could still make money.

All these things would still play out more or less the same. In fact BG actually allowed Interplay to survive a bit longer and release some more stuff so if anything the existence of BG actually had some benefit. All this is because of two things:

Diablo 2 would still have been made.

The XBOX would still have been released.

It's actually very canny of the Codex to have Diablo as one of the top RPG's of the decade. Diablo more than BG, more than anything else, created not only a slew of H&S style copycats after it, but it forever ingrained certain ideas in the general public about what an RPG is supposed to be. We don't have to agree but that's not important. It's what the masses believe and that makes all the difference. Most subsequent RPG's has been consciously or subconsciously created to follow the ideal of ease of access, pick up and play, looting etc. Eventually WoW would take all these things and become the 'ultimate RPG'.

As for the influence of the XBOX, well it's already been said what it's effect was.

All BG led to was the Bioware model, which only Bioware adopted(until CDPR came along and took the basic cinematic storytelling aspect and did it's take on it). Other RPG's came and went, died or survived regardless. It was the consoles, the mid-late 90's rise of the 3D accelerated graphics revolution, the domination of the FPS and RTS, Diablo 2, which led to the entry into the gaming realm of vast numbers of new interested people seduced by all this that killed the traditional RPG.
 

Commissar Draco

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Fuckbox which opened the gaming for kwan plebs, Diablo as the role model for all future RPGs and MMOs like WoW which made singlre player campaign "absolute" were three main reasons of the :decline: Not BG2 a iso 2D game based on P&P (D&D is shit system but still above modern whackamole). :M
 

Melcar

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Rivmusique said:
commie said:
So who actually bought and played BG that it supposedly ushered in the era of decline?

A friend of mine bought it, boxed copy with a map so I guess it was near it's release. I borrowed it off him like 6 years ago and still have it in my house. So that accounts for 1 buy!

EDIT: My bad it's BG 2 :(

I bought all of them. Yeah, I'm cool like that. Still got the original maps and manuals. BG2 was serious decline in comparison.
 

Forest Dweller

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Guys, I think we're all missing the most important part of this interview:

Witcher 2 really caused some stir among the RPG titles released this year. Did you get fierce competition from bigger companies against your title? There were rumors about big companies giving bad review grades to your game in order to take it down...
Does anyone know anything about this? Is there any evidence? I'm curious. Could Bioware really stoop that low?
 

Rivmusique

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commie said:
As for Jaesun and others who believe in the great Bioware conspiracy to destroy RPG's; consider a past where Baldur's Gate did not exist:

* Bioware would certainly not have existed and neither would have their subsequent games or Obsidian's improvement to the original IP's.

* Interplay would have gone bankrupt sooner, maybe wouldn't even have made it to release PS:T (certainly it wouldn't have published IWD 1 and 2, never mind ever getting as far with Van Buren as they did).

* 3DO/NWC would still have folded after making MM9. It wouldn't have been any better a game and wouldn't have sold any better.

* Sirtech would still have folded after making Wiz8. Game also wouldn't have sold any better.

* Troika if it still formed, would still have made barely playable buggy games and would have folded. This is assuming they could even find funding for their projects.

* Deus Ex, SS2, Arx Fatalis, Gothic, Morrowind may still have been made. Would have sold more or less what they would have were BG to have existed.

* Oblivion and Fallout 3 would still have been made. Bethesda didn't rely on anything from the Bioware model, and if anything, without the competition they may have dominated the market even more.

* The few mainstream publishers who still funded RPG's might not have even done so were they not encouraged by the success of BG. So many of the last great experiments by devs like Troika might not have even been possible were Sierra and Activision not at least somewhat encouraged by the possibility that RPG's could still make money.

:o It's just like that Butterfly Effect movie...but with less child porn.
 

Shannow

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Dicksmoker said:
Guys, I think we're all missing the most important part of this interview:

Witcher 2 really caused some stir among the RPG titles released this year. Did you get fierce competition from bigger companies against your title? There were rumors about big companies giving bad review grades to your game in order to take it down...
Does anyone know anything about this? Is there any evidence? I'm curious. Could Bioware really stoop that low?
There are rumors that 4chan and the codex conspired to take down Daatoo :roll:

One should always take rumors seriously...not :M

Now go on discussing BG's impact on the decline. We didn't have the discussion 10 times before and I gave a fuck the first time around. /sarcasm
 

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