Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[octavius]

Spoiler

 

[newtmonkey]

Sceptic

I have my SC-88 set to the SC-55 map, and I've noticed no difference between it and my CM-500 in "GS" mode. I've swapped between the SC-55 and SC-88 maps on the fly when playing MIDI music, and there are differences, but nothing crazy. When I play DOS games, I keep it on the SC-55 map.

[Edit]
I spoke too soon. As a test I just compared Doom 1 title screen between my SC-88 (w/SC-55 map) and CM-500, compared with a recording on Youtube of the same song from actual SC-55 hardware. The synth sweep effect at the end of the song is completely different on the SC-88—almost like it isn't even there. On the CM-500 it sound perfect.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Finished mapping the Labyrinth of Lazzeruth, I think. I didn't mark squares as I visited them, which in hindsight I probably should have, but I'm fairly confident that I covered everything. I wish the Location spell were more restricted somehow, either through no magic squares or a steeper SP cost. I had no problem whatsoever navigating the labyrinth, as I could've checked my location after every single step without taking much of a hit to my offensive repertoire, if it had been necessary. Oh well.
I have no idea how I'm supposed to make it to level 15(?) without grinding. The Lords' quests give absolutely pitiful XP. Maybe the main quest will help, if I ever find it.

 

[No Great Name]

Strange Fellow I wouldn't worry too much about you party's level. When I beat the game, my party was only at level 13 and I never spent any time grinding for experience.

I also remember being able to repeat the quests where you take a scroll first to a wizard in Erliquin and then to another guy in Dusk for decent experience. If you've visited those places already and you know their locations, it seemed faster and easier than repeating the Lords' quests over and over again.

 

[newtmonkey]

Might & Magic X
I decided to restart this one as I wasn't happy with how I built my party. This time, I chose a Blade Dancer (Perception), Scout (Strength), and two Free Mages.

I like it better overall this time around, and Act 1 is still a lot of fun. Throughout Act 1 you are strapped for cash so being able to afford a new piece of equipment or spell/training is always something to look forward to. I also like the wilderness map you explore in Act 1—it's ultimately extremely linear, but at least it's easy to get around, and you have plenty of stuff to file away for later as you are lacking abilities or too low-leveled to proceed.

Act 2 opens the game up considerably, though you are still gated by tough encounters in most areas. The biggest problem I have with the area you primarily explore is Act 2 is how much of a pain in the ass it is to get around. Even the town is a pain in the ass to navigate—why are the useful shops scattered all over the map? Why didn't they design the map so that you can just go straight ahead and access most of the useful stuff? Navigating corridors in a town you've already explored is simply a waste of time and not enjoyable in the slightest.

Combat is just alright. There's really not much to it, as simply casting Celestial Armor is enough to get you through pretty much any battle around your level, with occasional buffs or debuffs for slightly more difficult enemies. Most boss encounters are simply a matter of standing one square away from the boss, casting every buff you have, and then starting the battle. I'm sure the harder difficulty setting makes things more difficult, but I am assuming that just increases enemy stats. M&M hasn't really had ranks for some time, so it's unfair to criticize 10 for that, but front/rear ranks would have made things more interesting for sure.

The most dangerous thing in this game is ambushes, but they are all fixed encounters, so it ends up just being annoying. You either run around with buffs on all the time, or suffer instant mage kills when you open a door and some guy shoots an arrow into your healer (or, reload, cast buffs, and then open the door, trivializing the encounter).

I guess my final complaint is that movement speed is way too slow. Considering you won't get a teleport spell until somewhat later in the game, it means lots of slowly trudging back and forth from dungeon/wilderness to town if you run out of supplies (or more likely, because your inventory is full of loot). Because all encounters are fixed and do not refresh, once you've cleared an area it is simply pure tedium to navigate through it. A few hours in and I was wishing you could switch to instant step mode.

Having said all that, the game is alright. It really starts to hit its stride in middle/late Act 2 when you have lots to explore and several dungeons to attempt. Some of the dungeons increase in difficulty each level, so you may only be able to explore one floor when you first discover it, meaning you'll need to go back later on in the game. I like this stuff, and it was very reminiscent of the older M&M games.

 

[Lacrymas]

I only played it on the higher difficulty where even with buffs mobs can fuck you up. It does, however, rely on buffs too much, some battles are literally impossible without prebuffing, but you also don't know where they are coming, so you quick save a lot and then load when a tough fight comes around to prebuff. Even then, RNG plays a non-trivial role, especially who the mobs decide to target, as there is no mass taunt you can't reliably get every mob off your squishies.

 

[newtmonkey]

I decided this weekend to play some more Might & Magic X rather than put some time into Might & Magic 1, thinking I could finish M&MX... but I didn't realize how long this game is haha.

I basically went around the world doing stuff I couldn't handle the first time around in preparation for Tomb of Thousand Terrors. I promoted each character and got all the blessings, and now am in the middle of the Fortress of Crows.

It's still annoying to get around the world (though by this point you do have a few options available to make it easier), but I think the game really hits its stride toward the middle/end of Act 3, as you slowly expand your ability to explore the rest of the map and enjoy some of the optional stuff or even do stuff slightly out of order

Having said that, I'm not a fan of the combat. I appreciate that they tried to make the combat "deeper" and that, unlike (say) most JRPGS, your buff/debuff skills and spells actually work on enemies (even on bosses in most cases). However, the lack of rows in combat basically means your spellcasters are just buffing/debuffing every round while your fighters are just fighting every round. There are a few skills/spells that are so useful that you basically end up using them every single combat once you get them.

I don't think my opinion will change much with what little I have left of the game, but at this point I think the game was a great first attempt at a modern-ish blobber and it's a shame the team won't get a chance to improve on it. It doesn't feel much like a M&M game to me, but as a spiritual successor ("Strength & Spellcasting") it's a fun time.

Roland synth update:

Spoiler

I ended up getting an SC-55 mkII on yahoo auctions this week. Like new in box with all documents/accessories (including the remote!), it's like the thing has never been used. It was much more expensive than what I wanted to pay (~85USD), but it works fine and now DOS games sound like they should (the SC-88 does not sound 100% accurate, even with the SC-55 instrument map).

 

[Darth Canoli]

I guess my final complaint is that movement speed is way too slow.

Even the town is a pain in the ass to navigate—why are the useful shops scattered all over the map? Why didn't they design the map so that you can just go straight ahead and access most of the useful stuff? Navigating corridors in a town you've already explored is simply a waste of time and not enjoyable in the slightest.

Exactly, this and the crippled spirit beacon, the worst thing is you want (need ?) to use it to shorten your ordeal in town, putting it on a central spot but then, you'll have to "walk" to the dungeon you're in ...

Why the hell didn't they use the same system as Lloy's beacon from MM6+ ? The Quest does it, it's extremely pleasant and they even add Int/2 beacon's spots ...

It really looks amateurish or console-like (which is the same in my mind), do those guys even played the best blobbers before making one ?

And of course the formation, still, as far as i remember, the combat was alright on maximum difficulty, the battle on top of the tower was a pain, though, i had to search for hints here and there before i didn't want to grind to trivialize it.
I stopped playing it some time after the third city, those defects added to the loading time slowly overgrew the fun parts.

 

[newtmonkey]

Darth Canoli
Yeah, Spirit Beacon is pretty much useless, since you have to walk back to where you called the Beacon.

You might want to pick the game up again sometime. The navigation problems never get better, but I enjoyed Act III (I think basically where you stopped playing) much more than Act II (with that horrible wilderness area that is just a bunch of annoying corridors).

I'm really not sure about what they were thinking when designing this one, tbh. Like you said, it has ridiculous stuff in it that suggests they had no idea what they were doing—for example, towns and wilderness full of corridors, no way to speed up walking, no worthwhile means of teleportation (this might all be forgiven if the game had random encounters, but it doesn't so once you've cleared an area, navigating it is a complete waste of time). On the other hand, anyone that throws away chance at commercial success to make a turn-based blobber obviously has some affection for these types of games, so I can't imagine they haven't at least played some of them.

 

[Darth Canoli]

On the other hand, anyone that throws away chance at commercial success to make a turn-based blobber obviously has some affection for these types of games, so I can't imagine they haven't at least played some of them.

I agree, but i'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.

Not sure which act i stopped, i reached the kind of temple with elements, i had the worse idea to start with the light elementals area and after being wiped out, i came back to kill some more cautiously (was a hell of a fight though), then head back to easier elements and ended up cleaning the light part, that's pretty much were i stopped.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

GUYZ Whats the best PARTY BUILD to play through WORLD OF XEEN?

Also, what CHAR BOOSTS and IN WHAT ORDER should i visit and give to what CHARACTERS?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Pretty

1 cleric + 1 wizard + 1 thief or Ninja that's the basic
3 spots left either 2 brutes (amongst barbarian, my favorite, knight and paladin ) and another magic user with wiz spells for a second lloyd's beacon for travelling purposes, quite handy.
or, something i didn't try just one another might character (which mean you pick a ninja and you'll boost his might as well) and 2 other magic users if you want to go magic heavy.

Example for a balanced "beginner" party : Barbarian, Paladin, Cleric, Thief, Archer, Wizard (option : replace the thief by a ninja and hope to find +thievery items )

Magic heavy : Barbarian, Ninja, Cleric, Wiz, Wiz, Cleric

 

[newtmonkey]

On the other hand, anyone that throws away chance at commercial success to make a turn-based blobber obviously has some affection for these types of games, so I can't imagine they haven't at least played some of them.

I agree, but i'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.

Good point! I guess in some ways it makes it worse... even if they did like classic blobbers, the fact that they got a lot of basic stuff wrong suggests that either a) they just don't get it or b) they do, but thought they could "improve" on the classics.

---

I put some more time in, pretty much did everything I can before the Tomb of Thousand Terrors, including finishing up some lingering quests and beating all the dangerous cave monsters (definitely should have done these earlier...).

Honestly, I am getting a bit tired of this one.

The absolute worst thing about this is navigating the towns. It's not difficult, it's just annoying. Look at towns in pretty much any classic blobber: they are laid out usually in a grid, with obvious streets and usually with all stores in a "shopping district" (often in a straight line from the entrance. The towns in M&MX, however, are even more mazelike than the actual dungeons lol. The absolute worst of the worst is the Slums in Karthal; who on earth thought that nightmare of navigation was a good idea? This actually gets worse as you go on, as it feels like half of the time spent in the latter half of the game is going from one trainer to the next every few levels.

The combat—specifically ambushes—just gets more annoying the further you get in the game. There's no way to keep all your buff spells going at all times (since most only last 6-7 steps), and since there are no combat ranks, your spellcasters often get one-shotted every time you get ambushed. You end up having to save before every intersection, just in case. The only way around this is through hirelings, which can at least warn you of an upcoming ambush before you walk right into it. In dungeons, though, it means either saving or casting your buffs before every door.

It's a decent attempt, but the game is more tedious than challenging, so all the work that went into the combat system seems wasted.

 

[Average Manatee]

Nothing killed M&MX for me more than the constant reloading to redo a fight with buffs. Start to open a door, have two party members scream and die before you can even see the guy behind it. On top of that it's not like there's a useful quickload/save, the awful unity engine makes every death take half a minute to recover from. This is something that basic playtesting should have came back with a "hey, make most of these buffs last all day, kthxbye".

GUYZ Whats the best PARTY BUILD to play through WORLD OF XEEN?

Also, what CHAR BOOSTS and IN WHAT ORDER should i visit and give to what CHARACTERS?

I'd probably edge towards dual Barbarians + Ninja + 1 cleric/Paladin + 2 Archers/Sorcerers. Full vs. Half casting is really up to personal preference, the difference becomes very marginal so fast. On the other hand more melee from 2 barbs is pretty much always useful and you'll easily find enough equipment to let your Barbs and Ninjas cast some spells when needed. In particular I don't really see the point of doubling up on cleric magic, the usual excuse is to resurrect if the cleric is the one killed but you're almost certain to find an item of resurrection before too long.

Barbarian is definitely better than Knight, Knights have basically no purpose except in terms of ease of equipping (if you find Obsidian Plate Armor before you have Obsidian armor to equip on everyone else then you'll be able to stick it on the Knight).

I'd similarly say that Ninja is almost strictly superior to Robber. Thievery levels up anyway. If you pick a race that receives a thievery bonus as a Ninja you'll be equal to a standard Robber anyway. Ninjas are just as good as Knights ignoring minor equipment differences.

Full caster vs. half caster is kind of funny. On one hand, half casters are still basically just as shit as full casters at actually hitting things with other things. On the other hand, if you are properly (ab-)using your abilities you can warp back to recharge at almost any time, negating the only real penalty for half casters (half magic pool), and the extra ease of finding good equipment with classes that can take more stuff is useful. If you run something like 2 Barb+Ninja+3 full casters you'll definitely hurt throwing away tons of good equipment early on until you hit the point where you're drowning in Obsidian for everyone.

FWIW, Levels per attack by class: Barbarian 4, Paladin/Ninja 5, Robber 6, Half casters 7, Full casters 8. So you can see why going Paladin->Barbarian or Robber->Ninja adds a lot more damage per turn than Full caster->Half caster. EDIT: Actually this is wrong, only sorcerers have 8, other full casters have 7 with their half-counterpart having 6.

Agree pretty much on nature-type spells being not useful in WoX, but they are additionally not really useful in 3 since you can just hire the druid (or ranger?) who comes with the important spells when you need to water walk. But then 3 dropped even more loot on you to the point where classes really didn't matter anyway. Like, ideal party for 3 is 6 barbs and you just abuse all of the enchanted items to cast whatever spells you need.

 

[Barbalos]

newtmonkey damn nice score on the SC-55 mkii man! Very nice! Hope it works well for you for a long time.

Average Manatee yeah the loading times, and general performance issues, was my least favourite part of MMX. And it's taxing on my CPU, even with settings turned down etc.. Very annoying!

 

[Strange Fellow]

MM1 spoilers:

Spoiler

King Alamar was an impostor all along! :shock:
He sends me to the Soul Maze. To escape, I must find the name of my captor. I suspect I already know it, having been unwittingly spoiled when reading about the series. Such are the pitfalls of having internet access while playing a game from 1986. I'm going to figure it out the legitimate way, of course, but unfortunately the encounters in the Maze are too much for me. Oh well, back to aimlessly wandering the countryside...

 

[Sceptic]

MM1 spoilers:

The funny thing about the MMs is the occasional "fake quest" like the one Alamar gives you. There's another one in a later game, I won't spoil it since I can't remember if you played it or not.
I think people hate the Soul Maze but I kinda like it, it's an interesting mapping challenge, and if you're just looking to go through it after you're done mapping Etherealize works fine.

 

[kmonster]

I'd similarly say that Ninja is almost strictly superior to Robber. Thievery levels up anyway. If you pick a race that receives a thievery bonus as a Ninja you'll be equal to a standard Robber anyway. Ninjas are just as good as Knights ignoring minor equipment differences.

For having fun playing for the first time in a full standard party robber is probably better than ninja. It doesn't feel well if you have to ignore the robber only opportunities in Clouds and the Darkside even if they only add XP to the robber. The barbarian will dominate the ninja as well in terms of attack power while the robber's faster levelling can be useful when using magical items, the better thieving skill will allow to open stuff earlier with less complications and the extra HP will make surviving traps easier.

 

[Strange Fellow]

MM1 spoilers:

The funny thing about the MMs is the occasional "fake quest" like the one Alamar gives you. There's another one in a later game, I won't spoil it since I can't remember if you played it or not.
I think people hate the Soul Maze but I kinda like it, it's an interesting mapping challenge, and if you're just looking to go through it after you're done mapping Etherealize works fine.

Right, I was wondering if by exposing the fake king I had locked myself out of a quest. And I was pleasantly surprised when Location didn't work in the Maze. It was about time the game did something to restrict the use of that spell, because it has made most of the mapping challenges far easier than they should have been, IMO.

 

[Sceptic]

Right, I was wondering if by exposing the fake king I had locked myself out of a quest. And I was pleasantly surprised when Location didn't work in the Maze. It was about time the game did something to restrict the use of that spell, because it has made most of the mapping challenges far easier than they should have been, IMO.

I think MM1 in particular (though the other games have shades of this) is funny in the way it mixes elements of other games of the time without really going all the way in any direction. Combat is Wizardry-like but also Wizardry-lite. Note-taking is expected but you're not swamped with so many things to write down and keep track of like Ultima 4. Mapping is a must but it's not a mapping challenge like in BT, but then the occasional mapping challenge shows up once in a while. I think I like the series so much, and MM1 specifically, because I enjoy all these elements, and having them so seamlessly put together in a game that emphasizes exploration makes for a unique and IMO supremely enjoyable experience, despite some of the game's problems (we've gone through the imbalance a few pages ago)

 

[Strange Fellow]

I think MM1 in particular (though the other games have shades of this) is funny in the way it mixes elements of other games of the time without really going all the way in any direction. Combat is Wizardry-like but also Wizardry-lite. Note-taking is expected but you're not swamped with so many things to write down and keep track of like Ultima 4. Mapping is a must but it's not a mapping challenge like in BT, but then the occasional mapping challenge shows up once in a while. I think I like the series so much, and MM1 specifically, because I enjoy all these elements, and having them so seamlessly put together in a game that emphasizes exploration makes for a unique and IMO supremely enjoyable experience, despite some of the game's problems (we've gone through the imbalance a few pages ago)

My sentiments exactly. Even today, the scope of the game is very impressive -- it must have been quite something to play this back when it was released. There are several things I don't like about it, but in many ways it really is the complete package.

 

[Humppaleka]

I can definitely see what you are pointing at, and my experience with it was very enjoyable for the most part. I am just too popamole to finish these games, but of course I have to at least play them in the chronological order. I cannot simply play a later installment in a series without playing the ones before it.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

The fake quest is clever but I wonder how many people it drove insane trying to scour every square of the game to find it. It's definitely something that would never be done today.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I did it back then :D I just thought that its bugged and accepted it like that before internet.

 

[newtmonkey]

Might & Magic I
I was playing this using Grid Cartographer, but I gave Where Are We a try and really like the quality of life features (WAW also supports the entire series 1-5)... so I decided to just take my current party and re-explore the maps I've already explored to "catch up" in Where Are We. This also gives me the opportunity to see if I missed anything of note.

It's pretty amazing how quick navigation, combat... well, everything is, compared with Pool of Radiance (which I have been also playing recently using Gold Box Companion). POR is godly, but you do have to set aside a chunk of time to accomplish much of anything in that game.