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The problem with turn-based games is the only "tactics" are the builds.

Baron Dupek

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Incubation was good introduction to tactical game with some Alien vibes
Wilderness Mission expansions are just puzzles that requires getting into developers' mind and even the worst Alien moment are chill compared to average WM action
 

Serus

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compile the most broken builds from the net
read all the guides how to progress most efficiently
exploit ai programming and bugs
complain on codex how easy the game is
dont finish the game coz it's still too hard

thats how i do it, works every time
I thought everyone does that. Is there another way to play computer games? <shocked>
 

Serus

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I am sure turn-based games where every fight is a puzzle at every turn exists (like chess), I just haven't found it.

ToEE
KotC I
KotC II
Hearkenwold
Fallout Tactics
Why would every single turn have to be a puzzle? That's nonsense. Even in chess that's not true, the opening is not a puzzle since the situation at that point is known before the game and is always the same. Also, in chess there there are situation where there is one, practically obvious, movement - no "puzzle" there too.

As far as games with random enemies placement goes Battle Brothers rule. You can't have all fights on the same level if they aren't all hand placed (honestly, there are weaker fights in the above games as well) but a whole lot are great. Fighting some enemies are almost chess-like which can be very fun (Nachos) or not (Ifrits).
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
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There's also a difference between RPG tactics and a grid-based puzzle game.

A puzzle game is supposed to provide a challenge at every turn.

A RPG tactics game is supposed to be a limited combat simulator that reflects your character's growth and ability.
 

flyingjohn

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One of these days OP is gonna figure out you can roll in Souls and will make a thread criticizing it.
 

n0wh3r3

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I've never played a turn-based game that isn't equivalent to playing chess where you know the AIs first 5 moves. It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead. Usually, the very first area in a game is the most difficult before you figure out what works and repeat it ad nauseum. Essentially you abuse the very predictable AI, and the actual tactical puzzles are very few.

They give you movement limitations as if the game ever truly takes advantage of them. Increasing difficulty only limits viable builds and game styles without doing much of anything to improve on the puzzles because the only real puzzle is builds and repeating the same tactic over and over once you figure it out.

Peak of gaming are games like doom eternal and dark souls series. Yes, the adventures in codex beloved games like fallout, bg2, etc... are great but the gameplay is basically witcher 3. You are all hypocrites. Nearly all the top 100 rpg codex games suffer exact same problem as Witcher 3 and just because the game is "turn-based" does not make it any less braindead. Instead of spamming left click, you spam the same "tactic" in turns as if it makes any meaningful difference.

I am sure turn-based games where every fight is a puzzle at every turn exists (like chess), I just haven't found it. I am not saying real time are much better (Witcher 3 says hello), but at least I've played quite a few well-designed gameplay loops in RT games. Perhaps forcing quick decision making in a real time fight makes for a much easier puzzle design set up for meaningful combat.

Cope in comments to your hearts content.
Nowadays conflict is nothing like in the MIddle Age. But there are still a lot of big and small "wars" around the world. You just need to choose your destination and go on the battlefield.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Bringing up Doom Eternal as how games should be designed while complaining that other games don't offer enough tactics because they just want you to play in a certain optimal way is hilarious.
Doom Eternal is entirely about playing optimally lmao
 

King Crispy

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Has anyone even mentioned RNG yet?

Look, if you're going to base a game, specifically an RPG, on the skills of the player character(s) as opposed to those of the player himself, and a dice-rolling aspect is added in, then tell me which makes more sense:

- Having that game be turn-based which removes the "skill" of the player altogether

- Having that game combine RNG with a required amount of twitch-like skills from the player (RTwP or fully real-time)

-----

The former, even if the game's AI isn't that good, still maintains internal consistency thus is superior.

The latter, especially combined with limited AI, makes such a game almost ridiculous. Pointless, even.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
- Having that game be turn-based which removes the "skill" of the player altogether
A good system doesn't remove the skill of the player altogether. Making tactical decisions is still a player skill. Do I kill the enemy mage or cleric first? Or maybe the fighters? Do I use an area effect spell or a spell that takes out a single target? Will I buff my party or debuff the enemies? Using the right tactics is absolutely a player skill, an active engagement with the game and its systems.

I never liked the whole concept of RPGs being all character skill and no player skill, which I remember Vault Dweller propagating many years ago.
RPGs are, as the name implies, games, and games always include some form of player skill. Even gambling involves skill: blackjack in particular has card counting, poker also involves making informed risk assessments based on the cards you're holding and the cards you expect to remain in the deck.

If you completely remove player skill you're left with an idle game that plays itself.
If you want to remove player skill altogether you have to implement and autobattle combat system where your characters choose their combat actions on their own, with no player involvement.
Better yet, if you want to remove player skill from other parts of the game, those should be automatic, too! Dialog choices? Bah, your character picks the options on his own, based on the character traits in his character sheet! Now you really got an RPG that's all about character skill, and not about player skill! Congratulations, you reached the ideal RPG according to that definition!
 
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I've never played a turn-based game that isn't equivalent to playing chess where you know the AIs first 5 moves. It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead.
Just play chess then. As of yet, as far as I'm aware, it's still not cracked.
Expecting vidya to scratch that itch is pants on head retarded.
Chess is learning openings and end games ad nauseam in this day and age.
Utter shite.

Learning openings is something that is required only for more advanced players. For most people memorizing more than a few 10 moves variations and gameplans associated with them is enough. It's far more about tactics and positional chess.
 

King Crispy

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Making tactical decisions is still a player skill.
I thought I made it clear enough that I meant tactile (not tactical) skill. You know, button-mashing ability. Popamolism, if you will.

Why are you making me explain this, Jarl? You know exactly what I meant.
 
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Bg2 scs on high difficulty is more tactically demanding than any tb shit there is.

It's not even close.
Hear, hear! I loved BG2. It was already my favorite game, but after several years I wanted to spice it up. Tried mods. Sword Cost Stratagems took one of the best games and made it the best game. The AI doesn't just have excellent routines, but actually reacts to player action. Spellcasters do the heavy lifting here, but even more mundane classes are tremendously improved. Rogues now become a serious threat. Foes call for help. Monsters will apply their abilities selectively to great effect. The best part is that SCS plays by the rules. It doesn't crutch on bloat of any kind. It's actual tactics. It deserves all the raving praise it gets.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Play Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen, @King Crispy.
No. We're talking about RPGs here, fork. Go away.
RPG Codex voted Dark Souls GotY 2011 2012 and voted Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen GotY 2012 2013 2016.


15468.jpg
 

Jvegi

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Bg2 scs on high difficulty is more tactically demanding than any tb shit there is.

It's not even close.
Hear, hear! I loved BG2. It was already my favorite game, but after several years I wanted to spice it up. Tried mods. Sword Cost Stratagems took one of the best games and made it the best game. The AI doesn't just have excellent routines, but actually reacts to player action. Spellcasters do the heavy lifting here, but even more mundane classes are tremendously improved. Rogues now become a serious threat. Foes call for help. Monsters will apply their abilities selectively to great effect. The best part is that SCS plays by the rules. It doesn't crutch on bloat of any kind. It's actual tactics. It deserves all the raving praise it gets.
It's not that, although it helps a little.

It's better because it's rtwp. It's not fucked by the initiative bs.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Making tactical decisions is still a player skill.
I thought I made it clear enough that I meant tactile (not tactical) skill. You know, button-mashing ability. Popamolism, if you will.

Why are you making me explain this, Jarl? You know exactly what I meant.
The ultimate end point of that line of thought is what I described, though.
 
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Action economy and initiative are definitely a strategy problem in RPGs. It greatly favors winning initiative, then singling out individual opponents until they're dead. In real-time, you don't have the luxury of eliminating an MVP unmolested. RT also allows for quick change to defensive posture, or fleeing out-outright. This is generally difficult to do in TB games. Focusing on single opponents theoretically cuts both ways, but whenever AI does that, players tend to cry foul.

If you change the way initiative works, you can solve some of the action economy abstractions. It needs to be reworked so that those who acted least get higher priority. I will shamelessly plug my own solution from a pretty decent thread. If you're not assured to keep your priority and can't rely on order, then combat becomes far less predictable. Less certainty means more risk, which forces the player to broaden their strategies. In some ways it might emphasize initiative even further, but if you're build purely optimizes for initiative, then your character's potency is going to suffer.
 

King Crispy

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Better yet, if you want to remove player skill from other parts of the game, those should be automatic, too! Dialog choices? Bah, your character picks the options on his own, based on the character traits in his character sheet! Now you really got an RPG that's all about character skill, and not about player skill!
Okay, you have a point here, but if we're going to take things to that extreme then we're going to have to start to indict PnP systems in the same manner as well. If the player's character's Charisma is only 8 then there's no way he's going to be able to convince the inn's barmaid to tell him the location of the king's favorite unicorn run no matter what the player claims his character says to her.

The more salient point, however, is that in an RPG that is real-time based, especially one that's not isometric (thus it having a more 1:1 relationship between combat "swings" and what the player is doing with the mouse), there is so much lost in the respecting of what that character's combat stats should be that in many cases it can't be considered an RPG anymore. Skyrim is one of the better examples. So is CP2077. I consider neither of these to be true RPGs.
 

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