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Vapourware The Tangut Prophecy: FOnline RPG, Historical Fiction, 12th Century China

CrazyLoon

Prophet
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
715
Location
Cathay
Any examples of a quest unfolding?

What would be the plot, generally, that sort of stuff?
Well, for one, the" Yes, I'll help you" option is no longer the default dialogue choice. The game isn't about being a yes man to everyone you meet.

Here's an example of how difficult it is to be "good," in a relatively short quest. You are hired as one of the caravan guards. You will only be rewarded if you travel with the caravan the entire trip and arrive at the destination together. One of the travelers' horse died. He continues to travel on foot. It is very hard for him to keep up. Eventually, he stumbles and falls. As the rest of the caravan leaves him behind, the chance of him surviving is grim. What would you do? Would you ignore him and carry on? Would you rob him? Would you be selfless and give your horse to him? Would you carry him on your horse and travel at half speed, putting your pay at jeopardy? Would you rather give him a swift death? By the way currency is limited in the game. Now think again.

Another thing to consider, is virtue. The moral tenets of ancient China. For instance, let's say, a person of power wants your services. If you accept, being aligned with him makes you a lot of unwanted enemies/allies. If you decline, you become an enemy of his. Why? Because you inadvertently insulted him. By declining, for whatever reason, you imply that his offer and insight are wrong. Especially to a person of high standing in the feudal system, it is absolutely humiliating. Some decisions in the game are forced upon you like this. At times, if you are too good, your superior might fear you and try to set you up to fail.

I also want the players to work with their skills. For example, you are stuck in the city with no money. You need to reach another city. Without the sufficient provisions, you will die very very quickly traveling alone. Unless you are a savage Mongol who can survive by drinking nothing but horse blood of course. Perhaps you work. Perhaps you travel with some caravan. Perhaps you sneak your way into the caravan cart, and steal food to survive. Perhaps you kill one of the guards and present yourself as the replacement, under a cheap price. Or perhaps you receive help from some selfless Buddhist monks. Perhaps you work as a translator. Perhaps you bluff. How you accomplish your mission can often determine the availability of future quests and alter your path.

IMO it would benefit from some light fantasy touches, but that is just my personal preference. Maybe the "cool" or "novelty" effects can still be achieved through the engineering and shaman (alchemy?) skills.
Absolutely. I already have plans regarding this.

After you finish the demo you should start a KS --- oh wait :(
Well, it's your call.

I :salute: you for being able to work diligently on a project of this quality for 2 years and still release for free.
Money is a non issue for me. I love what I do. I do it, and will continue to do it, regardless of whether I getting paid or not. If I wanted money, I would be in Taiwan right now, working for Softstar or something. Everything I'm doing, is created at a budget of zero. Those $3000 programs don't interest me one bit, nor are they necessary to create good art. FOnline provides the groundwork engine so I don't have to write/buy one. Money will not magically make the game complete itself. If I start a Kickstarter, I would be lying through my teeth, because not a cent of the money will be spent directly on the game.

BTW, how will you handle battles involving 40 or more characters?
Have you tested that idea yet?
A working prototype isn't too far off. Here's some conceptual information.

The game takes place during peace time, so the planned battles are small scale ones, mostly fought by regional warlords/officials and their mercenaries, and maybe some raiders and pirates. The number of battles depends on the player's play style. If the player character is very combat orientated, then he'll definitely face many more battles than a pacifist diplomat type character. As for the fights themselves, the idea is to emulate medieval battles in a miniature set up. Instead of 2000 vs 2000, we have -20+ vs -20+. Come to think of it, this aspect of the game resembles more of a role playing strategy game. The end product should probably be quite similar to something like Age of Wonders. Two major differences: 1.) The player character, the hero, won't be able to crush an entire army all by himself and break the game. 2.) The player won't assume direct control over the troops, and will instead rely on orders.

A lot of combat mechanics are drawn from history. Different enemies have different personalities, and will employ different tactics. For example, the Khitans would place their least armoured units in the very front, and the most heavily armoured elite in the back. On the other hand, the Jurchens would instead use heavy cavalry to shock charge their opponents, as soon as the engagement begins. In game terms, cavalry charge is similar to the swing of a super sledge. It will knock down and stun the attacked. Elite war horses deliver the most powerful charge attacks, capable of affecting more than one opponent at the same time. Whereas weak horses, are not as competent, and might even panic. Other weapons have pluses and minuses. Bows are good vs light to medium armoured units, but weak vs heavy infantry/cavalry. The Song heavy steel crossbow is extremely powerful, and can pierce even the mighty Jurchen double layered iron lamellar armour, but is very very slow. Polearms are great vs mounted opponents, but weak vs swords and other fast melee weapons. Et cetera.

Not every fight requires you to massacre your all enemies. Decisive victories can be achieved, by either forcing your enemies to retreat, or surrender. It is also possible for the player to do the same, depending on the situation. Sometimes, it is even possible to sway your enemies to join you. And yes, they can do the same to you. Although, as I've said before, the troops won't follow you as companions, it is possible to gain their trust and favor, should there be any need for their services in the future. The opposite can happen as well.

In some scenarios, especially in the late game, you have to fight a series of battles with the very same troops. This means preserving equipment(ammunition, landmines, grenades, horses...), maintaining morale(Loot), and properly using injuried troops(Crippled limbs, eye damage...) are very important things to consider when approaching fights. The skills and perks of your character and companions are put to a serious test.


You may also want to post about your project in NMA forums.
I already did. They don't seem to care though.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,058
Location
NZ
Another thing to consider, is virtue. The moral tenets of ancient China. For instance, let's say, a person of power wants your services. If you accept, being aligned with him makes you a lot of unwanted enemies/allies. If you decline, you become an enemy of his. Why? Because you inadvertently insulted him. By declining, for whatever reason, you imply that his offer and insight are wrong. Especially to a person of high standing in the feudal system, it is absolutely humiliating. Some decisions in the game are forced upon you like this. At times, if you are too good, your superior might fear you and try to set you up to fail.

Excellent. I absolutely hate when modern values and morality are inserted into a depiction of the past. It's usually painfully obvious when a writer has no idea that people back then behaved differently to how they do now and would be absolutetly outraged by things we wouldn't raise an eyelid at (and vice versa). The best settings leave you ending up thinking and acting like someone from that culture and time.

Heh looks like that RPG idea of Haba's that cboyardee was so astonished by is coming true.
 

dnf

Pedophile
Dumbfuck Shitposter
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
5,885
Is there a FOnline game already made worth checking out?
 

dnf

Pedophile
Dumbfuck Shitposter
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
5,885
Searched for some FOnline disscussion and only found a Prosper Thread. Oh well...
 

hiver

Guest
Any examples of a quest unfolding?

What would be the plot, generally, that sort of stuff?
Well, for one, the" Yes, I'll help you" option is no longer the default dialogue choice. The game isn't about being a yes man to everyone you meet.

Here's an example of how difficult it is to be "good," in a relatively short quest. You are hired as one of the caravan guards. You will only be rewarded if you travel with the caravan the entire trip and arrive at the destination together. One of the travelers' horse died. He continues to travel on foot. It is very hard for him to keep up. Eventually, he stumbles and falls. As the rest of the caravan leaves him behind, the chance of him surviving is grim. What would you do? Would you ignore him and carry on? Would you rob him? Would you be selfless and give your horse to him? Would you carry him on your horse and travel at half speed, putting your pay at jeopardy? Would you rather give him a swift death? By the way currency is limited in the game. Now think again.

Nice.


Another thing to consider, is virtue. The moral tenets of ancient China. For instance, let's say, a person of power wants your services. If you accept, being aligned with him makes you a lot of unwanted enemies/allies. If you decline, you become an enemy of his. Why? Because you inadvertently insulted him. By declining, for whatever reason, you imply that his offer and insight are wrong. Especially to a person of high standing in the feudal system, it is absolutely humiliating. Some decisions in the game are forced upon you like this. At times, if you are too good, your superior might fear you and try to set you up to fail.
:thumbsup: Great.


I also want the players to work with their skills. For example, you are stuck in the city with no money. You need to reach another city. Without the sufficient provisions, you will die very very quickly traveling alone. Unless you are a savage Mongol who can survive by drinking nothing but horse blood of course. Perhaps you work. Perhaps you travel with some caravan. Perhaps you sneak your way into the caravan cart, and steal food to survive. Perhaps you kill one of the guards and present yourself as the replacement, under a cheap price. Or perhaps you receive help from some selfless Buddhist monks. Perhaps you work as a translator. Perhaps you bluff. How you accomplish your mission can often determine the availability of future quests and alter your path.

:thumbsup:




If I start a Kickstarter, I would be lying through my teeth, because not a cent of the money will be spent directly on the game.
:lol:



Not every fight requires you to massacre your all enemies. Decisive victories can be achieved, by either forcing your enemies to retreat, or surrender. It is also possible for the player to do the same, depending on the situation. Sometimes, it is even possible to sway your enemies to join you. And yes, they can do the same to you. Although, as I've said before, the troops won't follow you as companions, it is possible to gain their trust and favor, should there be any need for their services in the future. The opposite can happen as well.

Excellent.
 

CrazyLoon

Prophet
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
715
Location
Cathay
How exactly will the morale of enemies and allies be calculated? Or is it more of a "Shit, my allies are dropping like flies, better switch to the other side", with no morale system/check?
No no no, morale is determined pre/post battle, and affects the behavior of your troops heading into the mini battles. With low morale, your troops might disobey your orders, try to run away when hurt(kind of like regular Fallout companions), panic, drop weapons, and lose turns. If morale is abysmal, they might even outright desert you before the battle. On the contray, if morale is very high, they'll gain bonuses and fight valiantly. The same applies to the enemies. Changing sides is an entirely separate topic.

Bolt-action rifles?
:retarded:
 

SkepticsClaw

Potential Fire Hazard
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Messages
169
Sounds fantastic. Everything you've said is making me look forward to this a lot.

A question, how much total content do you envision in the game and how much of it has been implemented so far? Perhaps you're just avoiding spoilers but some of your examples have a 'hypothetical' feel to them.
 

CrazyLoon

Prophet
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
715
Location
Cathay
A question, how much total content do you envision in the game and how much of it has been implemented so far? Perhaps you're just avoiding spoilers but some of your examples have a 'hypothetical' feel to them.
Yeah, you are right. I don't want to post spoilers. And in case you guys think the game world is too big, take a look at this.
map_zps880a87e0.jpg

The red circle is roughly where most of the game takes place in, easily 80%+ of the map locations. The rest of the 20% is scattered throughout the big blue circle. Like I said, it's not really that big.

Once I have done the rest of the art and the map locations, it'll free up a lot of time, and I'll be able to focus fully on implementing the quest arcs and filling in the maps. Almost all of the outdoor maps are done(Over 30 individually designed locations, excluding encounter maps). I'm finishing up on the last few as we speak. About two thirds of the indoor maps are also done. I have gotten to a very efficient workflow, so I'm blazing through the remaining locations.

As for the amount of planned content, don't expect the game to be very lengthy and bloated. I prefer quality over quantity. Throwing 50 linear fetch quests at the player is hardly substantial content in my opinion.

But keep this in mind, the true lost art of game making is testing.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
After working for 2 years diligently, English as the game language is starting to look more and more appropriate. Obviously, English has a much bigger audience, and a much more profound community of RPG gamers. Whereas with Chinese, I would be confining the game in a rather small crowd of people, because you know, most of the other Chinese are too busy getting emotionally engaged, doing boss runs in Diablo 3 for 20 hours a day, than to give my game a glance. Moreover, I use the Traditional Chinese script, which means the majority of the people in mainland, where most of the potential players are, would have some degree of trouble reading the text. Being a text heavy game, this is even more troublesome. And eventually, I would still have to translate the project into English myself, or have some unlucky poor soul do it, to reach the international audience. With English, I don't have to worry about any of these problems right from the get go. So I made the shift, recently. It's a bit unfortunate, because Chinese looks much better and consistent for the game.

I'm sorry to say this, but with an English audience, you risk niche appeal just as much as going with Chinese because there are even less people who are liable to know a thing about what you're doing. Very few people in the English speaking world knows European history in detail, so imagine how much know about Chinese history. There are also less people in the West who care about Chinese history and culture. Bioware found that even with their designed-for-mass-appeal Jade Empire. Hipster 'Asiaphiles' talk about being interested in Asian culture, but practically speaking this interest is limited precisely to the two things you don't want in your game - 'anime style' fantasy and 'kung fu' mysticism. It's going to be tough to sell a historical setting a tiny fraction of the English speaking audience has even heard of, and who have no cultural attachment to. Course, you knew that when you picked the obscure Tanguts to be your center piece, who are not even going to appeal to the average Chinese due to them being, effectively, a mix of Tibetans and Mongols and absent in standard Chinese history. Though, I am curious as to what motivated you to do this.

Fortunately, you have the Codex. Unfortunately, the Codex isn't better than the average Western gamer when it comes to knowing Chinese RPGs and Chinese history. I reckon you have a better shot selling why the game is mechanically interesting rather than why it subverts Chinese RPGs that nobody play to begin with. Choices and consequences, roleplaying options, party interactions, that sort of thing. You already have a decent start with TB combat and language skills, but details about how these work are welcome.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Most RPGs are set in made up fantasy land, I don't think you need prior knowledge of the setting to be interested in a game.

Now he will have to do a good job explaining the setting in the game without turning it into a giant info dump.

I hope he sticks with English because I want to play it :P
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
Most RPGs are set in made up fantasy land, I don't think you need prior knowledge of the setting to be interested in a game.

Now he will have to do a good job explaining the setting in the game without turning it into a giant info dump.

I hope he sticks with English because I want to play it :P

Fantasy as used in Western RPGs is basically equivalent to medieval European settings + magic, with a dash of Arabic & Near Eastern, in the case of Faerun, and a lot of Greco-Roman in, say, Age of Decadence. It's deeply rooted in Western culture no matter how you look at it and the same goes for the ideas contained in those settings. It's so obvious that there is normally a direct mapping between factions / races in fantasy games and factions / races in Western history & mythology.
 

oscar

Arcane
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Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,058
Location
NZ
But it's so dissimilar to the actual realities and history of medieval Europe that it solely becomes "lol knights and castles". Like Arabian settings have a tendency to be "djinn and bazaars" or Chinese ones "kung-fu and wise old monks".
 
Self-Ejected

Jack

█▓▒░
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Insert Title Here
But it's so dissimilar to the actual realities and history of medieval Europe that it solely becomes "lol knights and castles". Like Arabian settings have a tendency to be "djinn and bazaars" or Chinese ones "kung-fu and wise old monks".
Aye, a proper historical RPG set in medieval Europe would be almost equally alien to modern audiences. Personally I appreciate any setting that is not bland fantasy slush and I really like what I hear here. Two thumbs up to your project, CrazyLoon, will keep an watchful eye on this project.
 

CrazyLoon

Prophet
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
715
Location
Cathay
I'm sorry to say this, but with an English audience, you risk niche appeal just as much as going with Chinese because there are even less people who are liable to know a thing about what you're doing. Very few people in the English speaking world knows European history in detail, so imagine how much know about Chinese history. There are also less people in the West who care about Chinese history and culture. Bioware found that even with their designed-for-mass-appeal Jade Empire. Hipster 'Asiaphiles' talk about being interested in Asian culture, but practically speaking this interest is limited precisely to the two things you don't want in your game - 'anime style' fantasy and 'kung fu' mysticism. It's going to be tough to sell a historical setting a tiny fraction of the English speaking audience has even heard of, and who have no cultural attachment to. Course, you knew that when you picked the obscure Tanguts to be your center piece, who are not even going to appeal to the average Chinese due to them being, effectively, a mix of Tibetans and Mongols and absent in standard Chinese history. Though, I am curious as to what motivated you to do this.
The whole point of the game is to not sell it. If I wanted to make a game that will win me popularity contests and make me money, I wouldn't make a Chinese history game. Hell, I wouldn't even bother with the RPG genre to begin with. There's a reason why top selling RPGs nowadays are hybrid games. Mainstream gamers don't care about choice and consequences or being able to make different decisions or the said RPG mechanics, they just want to be this Level 99 Paladin with Cloud's Sword or something. They want to see blood and guts fly everywhere when they swing at this orc. They want to be the world's chosen savior. They want to romance this elven chick. Players, GLOBALLY, care about these things, so fuck them. I couldn't care less if they are not interested in my game, because THEIR INTERESTS were the reason the gaming industry is in this god awful fucking shape it's in today in the first place. Sea's Dragon Age mod Thirst has merely 44 endorsements. On the other hand, my fucking god, "BETTER SEX CUTSCENES" HAS AN ASTOUNDING 1758 ENDORSEMENTS! The same goes for the Chinese folks too. I refuse to make another Three Kingdom fairytale so folks can virtually bang Diaochan as Lubu once again.
 
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After you finish the demo you should start a KS --- oh wait :(
Well, it's your call.

I :salute: you for being able to work diligently on a project of this quality for 2 years and still release for free.
Money is a non issue for me. I love what I do. I do it, and will continue to do it, regardless of whether I getting paid or not. If I wanted money, I would be in Taiwan right now, working for Softstar or something. Everything I'm doing, is created at a budget of zero. Those $3000 programs don't interest me one bit, nor are they necessary to create good art. FOnline provides the groundwork engine so I don't have to write/buy one. Money will not magically make the game complete itself. If I start a Kickstarter, I would be lying through my teeth, because not a cent of the money will be spent directly on the game.

I insist that you reconsider regarding selling the game. Here is a suggestion: release a demo that contains maybe a quarter of the game. If people love it enough, they will buy. I understand money not being a motivation in making the game but money just simply can not do you harm. If not today, it might come in handy some other day in future, for whatever reason. You deserve to be rewarded for your work. If for nothing else, sell it for a low amount like $5 and donate it away. There are always others who will need it.

And, most importantly, a lot of people, even RP gamers, would rather buy and play a $5 RPG than a free one. Selling the game would make it reach a wider audience than just simply giving it away, as ridiculous as that sounds. Digital distribution platforms themselves raise a game's visibility beyond what free stuff could possibly achieve.
 
Joined
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Anyway, do you have anything more elaborate than Fallout's basic combat planned? Could you give us an overview of the options you have in mind that one would have in combat and how they would work?
 

CrazyLoon

Prophet
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
715
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Cathay
I insist that you reconsider regarding selling the game. Here is a suggestion: release a demo that contains maybe a quarter of the game. If people love it enough, they will buy. I understand money not being a motivation in making the game but money just simply can not do you harm. If not today, it might come in handy some other day in future, for whatever reason. You deserve to be rewarded for your work. If for nothing else, sell it for a low amount like $5 and donate it away. There are always others who will need it.

And, most importantly, a lot of people, even RP gamers, would rather buy and play a $5 RPG than a free one. Selling the game would make it reach a wider audience than just simply giving it away, as ridiculous as that sounds. Digital distribution platforms themselves raise a game's visibility beyond what free stuff could possibly achieve.
I'll consider it.

Anyway, do you have anything more elaborate than Fallout's basic combat planned? Could you give us an overview of the options you have in mind that one would have in combat and how they would work?
Of course.

First of all, regular fights work the same as basic Fallout combat; the one with better equipment/stats/level wins. These fights are initiated and fought exactly like in classic Fallout. Very straight foward, and pretty much self explanatory I think. Then we have what I call, "mini battles," which are the more sophisticated fights.

One new feature is the order system. During combat, each turn you will receive an opportunity to hand out orders. An order requires ACTION POINTS to give. A certain perk reduces the required AP. There are two types of orders:
1.) Single Group- only affects ONE specific group at a time.
2.) All Groups- affects ALL under your command.

Prior to combat, your troops will be divided into groups. How you set up your troops is a very important aspect of combat. Having many small groups allows you to maintain high control over your troops, but is very taxing on your action points and really limits the amount of orders you can give out each round. This is useful in controlling a couple of heavy crossbowmen individually, for example, when that one important sniper shot has to be made. On the contrary, having few but large groups is much easier to manage, but you sacrifice complex individualised control. If no orders are given, your troops will operate based on the default order given before the battle. When ordering troops, the actions available include targeting, moving, attacking, using items, and such. Each type of orders is broken down into very specific actions. Examples: Target heavy armoured enemies with most powerful attack in melee; Target a specific type of unit with light attack at high range; Use fire lances on heavy cavalry; Charge in melee; Move to this or that area; Cease fire... An ingame example of a tactic: You have a group of archers for artillery, and a group of heavy infantry as defenders. A band of light cavalry is in the offensive and approaches. You order your infantry units to stay guard and your archers to fire light arrows in position. Light armoured cavalrymen have very low piercing damage threshold, so the light arrows are likely to be devastating enough to halt their advance, without resorting to melee. The actual ingame fights will be by no means this simple, but it gives you a general idea how this thing operates.

Then you have the weapon abilities. Each type of weapon has its own distinct advantages and disadvantages. Polearms strike at a 2 hex range and can chop down incoming horsemen. One handed swords are the most balanced melee weapon, with low AP usage and high damage, but are next to useless versus mounted opponents. The two handed great sword(Used by the guy in my avatar) does more damage and can even attack cavalry, at the expense of higher AP usage. Bows can fire powerful aimed shots and spray light shots. With all these different weapon properties in mind, to succeed in combat not only requires you to pick the most powerful weapons, but also the most appropriate weapons, most suitable for the given scenario. In response to the earlier discussion about horse archery being the most dominant style, one minor spoiler, some battles in the game will be fought in forests, where the shooting arc is often blocked. Choosing the right equipment along with many factors outside of the combat are just as important as decision making in combat. What enemies you face, what equipment is available to you, what troops you have under your command, leading up to the battle itself, many of these factors tie into your actions/inactions and questings in the game world. Playing different types of character and specialising in different skills can give very different battle scenarios. Can't really say much more without spoiling something but you get the idea.
 

tiagocc0

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
2,056
Location
Brazil
I insist that you reconsider regarding selling the game. Here is a suggestion: release a demo that contains maybe a quarter of the game. If people love it enough, they will buy. I understand money not being a motivation in making the game but money just simply can not do you harm. If not today, it might come in handy some other day in future, for whatever reason. You deserve to be rewarded for your work. If for nothing else, sell it for a low amount like $5 and donate it away. There are always others who will need it.

And, most importantly, a lot of people, even RP gamers, would rather buy and play a $5 RPG than a free one. Selling the game would make it reach a wider audience than just simply giving it away, as ridiculous as that sounds. Digital distribution platforms themselves raise a game's visibility beyond what free stuff could possibly achieve.
I'll consider it.

You can ask for money and donate it, if you really want it to be free as in I don't require the money.
But having funds for the next game is always a plus.
 

nihil

Augur
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
490
Location
Sweden
Project: Eternity
Very interesting.

In this game, you will only be able to play as a male. ... Can't stand the anorexic big boobed wonderwoman running around and smashing people with her imaginary 18/00 strength, while wearing high heels and some "armour" that covers less skin than a bikini swimsuit, ugh.

Why not take the opportunity to do female protagonists right, instead? If it would make sense from a historical perspective and the premise you're going for.
 

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