Ultima The Ultima Underworld I & II Thread

[chukimomosra]

Underworld Unity has been shelved in favor of using Godot. However, the dev hasn't uploaded a commit in four months. It's still in pre-alpha though.

Hi. I noticed he started to add commits again. In fact the last commit was yesterday. https://github.com/hankmorgan/UnderworldGodot/commits/main/

 

[Kweepa]

Good call on it looking like a spell icon. The spell icons are stored elsewhere (in spells.gr) as shown above. This figurine is a game object.

 

[chukimomosra]

I can find out right now if is a game object or spell. Let me check. Is an object in Ultima Underworld 1.
a_figurine, "Figurine", texture/id 282, 4.0 mass (as heavy as Battle Axe), quality type is 15 (which means no quality), class is 4 (a misc item like skull, bones etc)
I looked in all the maps and is not pre-placed anywhere.
I looked into all the decompiled dialogues and I cannot find figurine or item with id 282.
I looked in the decompiled executable and I found only one occurence of 0x11A decimal 282 in an NPC dialogue condition but I cannot be sure is correct. Is quite difficult to work with IDA. Also I think I am looking for 282 which is the texture number not the id of the actual item. I am not sure if the texture and the object have the same id.

 

[Kweepa]

Thanks! Nice bit of research! The texture number and the item id are the same.
What is a dialog condition? One of the dialog function callbacks perhaps? Is it possible to determine which dialog (whoami)?

 

[Cael]

In Sanct is just 'Create Protection'.

In Bet Sanct (mentioned early on a scroll) is 'Create Small Protection', so with that logic applied it should be In Vas Sanct, 'Create Great Protection'.

IIRC the icons for these games (in UUW1) is a shield, with the shield's size showing the spell's size.

Could be one of the protection spells of the game, the runic system certainly allows for them.

I thought it was a guy covered in armour. Opps! Shows how much I use magic in UUW.

 

[Deadyawn]

what do you mean I need the recipe to craft the worm stew?!?!?!?! I threw that shit right after memorizing the ingredients, god knows where.

 

[Kweepa]

what do you mean I need the recipe to craft the worm stew?!?!?!?! I threw that shit right after memorizing the ingredients, god knows where.

Yeah, that's pretty cruel. The whole game expects you to remember stuff, then this.
You could try checking in the green goblins' area in the NW of the first level. Maybe you dropped it just after getting it?
If it helps it looks like this:

 

[Deadyawn]

Maybe you dropped it just after getting it?

Nah. I distinctly remember dropping it on another floor altogether. Anyways, perfect excuse to start over now that I've got a grip on the game and try to engage with the magic system a bit.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The recipe is like that due to engine limitations. Unlike the popcorn (place an ear of corn over a lit torch in your inventory) they couldn't come up with a way to make the player 'assemble' the stew themselves, so they needed a trigger script to make it happen.

Hence, the recipe page.

There are more such 'workarounds' in the game. This is a minor spoiler for those unfamiliar with the game, but at one point players will encounter an upset spectre named Warren. He just floats there and does nothing if directly engaged with, and he's not hostile. But when the player engages with an in-world object at that location, they're thrust into a conversation against their will.

In truth the player is talking to the upset spectre, because they couldn't get the conversation system going unless the player is talking to an in-game creature. This can be best demonstrated by the following experiment: When you find the spectre, save the game, then kill the spectre. Now explore your surroundings and absolutely nothing will happen... including any sudden conversations.

This is why when the devs went to work on their next non-Ultima Underworld game, they decided to cut out the dialogue system and only have people talk at the player. This accidentally lead to players feeling all alone and abandoned in-game, so they used that as part of the game's setting and atmosphere.

Honestly, Citadel Station would be a completely different place if only there was someone there to talk to...

 

[chukimomosra]

I think Ultima Underworld games were meant to be played with a pen and paper or notebook. You'd be playing and taking notes. A great example of this is the Lizardman language. Different from System Shock which handled all the memorization/note taking for you.

 

[Inec0rn]

what do you mean I need the recipe to craft the worm stew?!?!?!?! I threw that shit right after memorizing the ingredients, god knows where.

Yeah, that's pretty cruel. The whole game expects you to remember stuff, then this.
You could try checking in the green goblins' area in the NW of the first level. Maybe you dropped it just after getting it?
If it helps it looks like this:

Bricking your game on this quest is a right of passage in UW.

 

[Red Hexapus]

Maybe you dropped it just after getting it?

Nah. I distinctly remember dropping it on another floor altogether. Anyways, perfect excuse to start over now that I've got a grip on the game and try to engage with the magic system a bit.

Perfect timing, as it's the game of the month (3 months actually this time) at Dos Game Club:
https://www.dosgameclub.com/forums/forum/upcoming-months/ultima-underworld/
That's UU1 and UU2, by the way. I've finished both of these December last year, so it's still too fresh and won't be replaying, but I had a blast with them (more with the first part, than the second one)

 

[Deadyawn]

In a way it's good that I restarted. Now that I've got a grip on how the game plays, I've been a lot more thorough in my exploration and found all sorts of stuff. The first time I completely missed that very important item on lvl 3. Still, I had to google where the hidden switch was. I would never have found it otherwise.

 

[Cael]

what do you mean I need the recipe to craft the worm stew?!?!?!?! I threw that shit right after memorizing the ingredients, god knows where.

Yeah, that's pretty cruel. The whole game expects you to remember stuff, then this.
You could try checking in the green goblins' area in the NW of the first level. Maybe you dropped it just after getting it?
If it helps it looks like this:

Bricking your game on this quest is a right of passage in UW.

Does it brick the game? I thought you just took damage? With enough Great Heal spells and pots, you could force your way through...

 

[Unkillable Cat]

In a way it's good that I restarted. Now that I've got a grip on how the game plays, I've been a lot more thorough in my exploration and found all sorts of stuff. The first time I completely missed that very important item on lvl 3. Still, I had to google where the hidden switch was. I would never have found it otherwise.

Minor spoiler: You'll be back there later.

Don't worry, keep going. This game is backtracker-friendly.

 

[Kweepa]

Does anyone know what the traps are that are affected by the 'Remove Trap' spell? This is one of the last spells I need to implement but I don't know how it works, how you target the trap, &c.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

IIRC some chests are trapped. When looking at them a prompt comes up sometimes, like: "You have found a trap! Do you want to disarm it?"

I can recall at least one trap that fired arrows at the player from the chest, and another that only seemed to do minor damage to the player. I also faintly recall a trap involving a fireball launched down a corridor.

Doors may be trapped as well.

In the case of the spell, the target would then be the trapped chest/door.

 

[Arrowgrab]

IIRC some chests are trapped. When looking at them a prompt comes up sometimes, like: "You have found a trap! Do you want to disarm it?"

I can recall at least one trap that fired arrows at the player from the chest, and another that only seemed to do minor damage to the player. I also faintly recall a trap involving a fireball launched down a corridor.

Doors may be trapped as well.

In the case of the spell, the target would then be the trapped chest/door.

There were also a few trapped items lying on the ground: you pick them up, the trap activates. (Not sure if the trap was just immediate HP loss, or an actual in-world effect like an arrow.) I only remember one location where several could be found.

There's also a plot-related maze where stepping off the invisible correct path damages you, but I'm not sure if the game handles that as a trap which the spell can effect or some sort of magic.

 

[Kweepa]

Ah, thanks, that's useful info.
As far as the maze goes, those are damage traps connected to move triggers placed off the golden path, so they woudn't be disarmable, I think.

 

[Deadyawn]

Ok, I've finished it.

This one was truly special. The controls took some getting used to. Barely used the keyboard, just got around with the mouse. I love System Shock, so this coming before it, I was expecting it to be more primitive, but lo and behold, it's actually a lot more involved and complex. It's just an all-around fantastic game if you mainly value exploration.

I had to look shit up towards the end because the game can be needlessly obtuse at times. The Cup of Wonder was the only talisman I couldn't find on my own. I have no clue how to find the Book of Honesty properly. I stumbled upon it. In hindsight, I had found most pieces of the puzzle but failed to put them together. The way information is scattered means you either explore every nook and cranny, or you don't beat the game at all. It does provide lots of "eureka" moments, but overall I think I prefer the more directed approach they took with System Shock.

But yeah, overall I loved it, and I'll most definitely play the sequel and be on the lookout for more games like this. I've already played Arx, know of Underworld Ascendant's poor reputation, and wait for Monomyth to leave early access. Any recommendations are welcome.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Ok, I've finished it.

This one was truly special. The controls took some getting used to. Barely used the keyboard, just got around with the mouse. I love System Shock, so this coming before it, I was expecting it to be more primitive, but lo and behold, it's actually a lot more involved and complex. It's just an all-around fantastic game if you mainly value exploration.

I had to look shit up towards the end because the game can be needlessly obtuse at times. The Cup of Wonder was the only talisman I couldn't find on my own. I have no clue how to find the Book of Honesty properly. I stumbled upon it. In hindsight, I had found most pieces of the puzzle but failed to put them together. The way information is scattered means you either explore every nook and cranny, or you don't beat the game at all. It does provide lots of "eureka" moments, but overall I think I prefer the more directed approach they took with System Shock.

But yeah, overall I loved it, and I'll most definitely play the sequel and be on the lookout for more games like this. I've already played Arx, know of Underworld Ascendant's poor reputation, and wait for Monomyth to leave early access. Any recommendations are welcome.

Congratulations on beating the game! It's still a marvellous game after all these years, isn't it?

The Cup of Wonder was the last talisman I found back in the day. It's a tricky process, but what held me back was that I knew about the room it's located in, but firmly believed for some reason that it couldn't be there, it had to be somewhere else nearby.

For the Book of Honesty, the clue is something about a key beyond the hourglass, right? Well, if you check your map, you might spot a room that's shaped like an hourglass. The room the book is located in then looks like a key on the map. (This is one of the few talismans that can be found via other means - namely, if you happen to be flying through the lava passage and stumble upon the path by accident.)

Personally I was more bothered about the Wine of Compassion. There are no clues to finding it, you're just outright given its position if you successfully freed the mute prisoner on Level 3, but it's almost impossible to find on your own. Who thinks to check floor tiles for secrets at this point in the game?

One final note for Ultima Underworld 2 - it is more of a sequel to Ultima 7 than Ultima Underworld 1, and also serves as a prequel (or interquel, if you want to use a silly word) to Ultima 7 Part 2. In fact, only a single character returns from Underworld 1, towards the end. It's a game better enjoyed after having played Ultima 7, and just before playing Ultima 7 Part 2 - but it's still good fun, even though some of the high end-spells sorta break the game.

 

[Inec0rn]

Very hyped for Monomyth but waiting for full release, wish there were more UU like games but there just arn't that many.

 

[Spukrian]

Ah, thanks, that's useful info.
As far as the maze goes, those are damage traps connected to move triggers placed off the golden path, so they woudn't be disarmable, I think.

If I may ask, what are you working on? The UU for Godot? Or something else?

 

[Kweepa]

It's yet another port of UU to Unity.
My rationale:
- I've been working on it in my spare time on and off since 2015
- I love the game and wanted to understand it
- I have RSI so I can't use a mouse (it's controller-based)
- It's focused entirely on UU1, so no distractions from UU2 or SS
Progress:
- It's completable (although in my playthrough last night I found 37 new bugs and polish items, the worst of which was not being able to read some books and scrolls)
- I have added 3d objects for all objects in the world
- I intend to add 3d models for all enemies, but that's just started
- Major missing feature is saving and loading. I don't understand EasySave3 yet

 

[behold_a_man]

So, I've

finished

the Ultima Underworld.

This game does not feature a lot of traps - but it does start strong in that department, as you can handicap yourself very quickly by picking a wrong class. Without strength, you can barely carry anything besides an armor. Ranged combat suffers from the scarcity of ammunition. Offensive magic, as well as ranged weaponry, cannot be used while close to the enemy. Magic can be functional - but offensive spells aren't available from the very beginning, as the ability to cast certain spells is dependent on having proper runes - and I didn't find runes needed to cast an offensive spell until level 4. Relying on magic to deal damage also implies needing to play as a sleepy stranger unfit for avatarhood. Sad! What follows is that melee weapons are pretty much necessary. And, since the enemies follow the same rules as the Avatar, it limits their spellcasting too.

I didn't learn that the Avatar can drown until I read the description of the swimming skill - note that, even while not walking on water, you can sprint in water by holding down the shift key. Charisma and appraisal skills are surprising additions to a game without regular traders at all, where I barely had to buy something from anyone. Picklock didn't have any advantage over level 5 spell, and interesting locks appeared mostly in the lower levels of the game - so the inability to cast this spell early didn't matter a lot (also, apparently, bashing doors with fists worked just as well). I suspect most skills to be useless (track? traps? stealth?), though I only checked out a few.

One of the most impressive parts of the game was the spellcasting system. Spellcasting is tied to the exploration, as the runes necessary to cast them are scattered across the world - thankfully most had duplicates. The runes represent a word used for casting a spell, as in earlier Ultimas. The runes weren't made equal - for example, the strongest spells usually used the V rune (Vas - Great), while operating with fire required the F rune (Flam - Flame). Most of the exploration-related spells were very useful, such as flying, walking on water, telekinesis, fire resistance, or opening (locks). As, in order to cast a spell, I had to spell it out explicitly from the runes, as spells were way easier to cast with Underworld's mana-based system than in mainline Ultimas with their cumbersome reagents system, and as they were almost indispensable for exploration, this Ultima finally made the elaborate spellcasting system from Quest of the Avatar and later Ultimas meaningful gameplay-wise.

The unfortunate consequence of having to pick the appropriate runes to cast a spell is how slow it is to change it - so, while in combat, usually only one spell had to do it, unless you wanted to run around abusing the fact that enemies are slower than you, which is usually a good (optimal?) strategy in this game. While the enemies oftentimes had something interesting about them, from the ability to fly of ghosts and gazers to the poisoning of dread spiders, the real-time combat was pretty straightforward and didn't require any elaborate tactics other than maybe keeping distance when they attacked in melee (which was possible even while using melee weapons) and being close to spellcasters.

The world did change throughout the levels; each one was distinct from another, from the waterfalls and lizardmen of the third one, through the academy, seers, and volcanic areas of the sixth one, to the mazes and prisons of the seventh, and it wasn't a predictable descent into less and less civilized areas - on the contrary, the fourth and sixth levels were the ones with the most human and inhuman interactions. Except for the last level, everything was remarkably polished; each place was brimming with secrets, quests, people, runes, or other loot. In fact, it might be the densest set of levels I saw in years, comparable to the add-on to Divinity II: Ego Draconis. The last level wasn't up to the standards set by the game - there were only four interesting places there, though the level was just as large as the previous ones; it contained tons of armaments that were nigh useless at this part of the game; and some items held no significance yet were indestructible (like ankh), as if the game wasn't finished. I saw remarks about the feeling of sameness of the dungeon, which I would rather attribute to the static soundtrack than to the overwhelming brownness of the Abyss.

A lot of items or parts of the dungeon itself were interactive, unsurprisingly as far as Ultimas go, with some influence on the gameplay. I could bash rocks with a pick, go fishing in a pond, or enter psychedelic trances, one way (incense) or another (shrooms). The most unexpected forms of interactive gameplay I found were related to spells, with the game allowing me to abuse itself a lot. For example, I cannot cast spells at level 7 (initially). But I can cast a spell (like EY - Open) at level 6 and haul it through the level using the keyboard for movement to get past a steel door to the lava pit. Roaming Sight may look like a terrible spell: no keyboard controls, too fast movement to see passages properly, barely yielding any useful information. But it updates the automap. And, thanks to its speed, I can map half the level in one casting, moving randomly. Getting to 7th level removes my ability to cast spells... but what if I cast the spell WHILE going through the stairs...? I was able to map level 7 without much hassle.

Also, contrary to what some people say, careful examination of NPCs' speeches was enough to finish the game; one could avoid exploring quite a chunk of the game as long as he spoke with all of them - similarly to mainline Ultimas, they held all the information needed to complete the main quest (and, unlike both Quest and Warriors, I managed to avoid the spoilers). I didn't manage to solve the black goblins' problem with a spider, I never made the stew, I don't know what some clues meant (Is and Ts, given by Biden), and I never found a certain key (to the Evil Dead at level 7). In other words, there were a lot of side hustles that could be bypassed. Funnily, Underworld transitioned to full dialogue lines for the Avatar before mainline Ultimas, and the dialogues were written the way one would expect regular human beings to speak (rather than Avatar's constant expressions of bewilderment in Pagan). One thing I disliked was that some dialogues were needlessly elaborate to the point of

being confusing

So, no one knows what lies beyond the doors.

Guess where the grave of Sir Ingvar lies.

. Coincidentally, the game didn't feature many puzzles, and those that were present (mostly on the 4th and maybe 7th levels) weren't exactly demanding.

The game isn't as doomy and gloomy as I expected it to be - all levels had some talkative and civil civilians, oftentimes holding on to some moral values; most had proper settlements (sometimes spanning over half of a level); the only real danger when traversing the world was related to the enemies, who almost never respawned (for the better). I still think they could've pulled the atmosphere with a longer, non-static soundtrack changing depending on the place or state of the world, but without it, the game doesn't hold a candle to Pagan in that department - and it doesn't look like they wanted it (see the joyous naming convention - from Goldthirsty to Kneebitter). On the brighter side, the combat music is pretty good (similarly to the rest of the soundtrack), something that seldom happens in RPGs.

Other than that: the game wasn't graphically stunning or polished, with NPCs reusing

the same portraits

and other things being just as unimpressive. I found the midgame to be the most interesting, when I already had some spells for exploring those places more freely and was trying to resolve loose NPCs' remarks and quests one by one. I guess it's obvious from above, but the magical warrior seems to be the only interesting and feasible build in the game. One silly detail I liked was that, after making many unsuccessful attempts at giving Garamon an answer to his question, he did give me

a hint

- but it indicates he knew the answer all along, which makes this riddle tiresome. The constant error message I got at the sixth level about errors in the item list was insufferable, and I hoarded my items at the fourth one, so I don't have a clue what triggered it.

In the end, Ultima Underworld is a blend of the interactivity of The False Prophet, the data hunt of Quest of the Avatar and Warriors of Destiny, and exploration reminiscent of Might & Magic titles with its focus on spellcasting. It might be the ultimate Ultima, even given lingering issues with lackluster combat and character development.