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4X The Unsurpassed Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri thread

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false Kalin

Arcane
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Used to mod SMAC back in the day. Lots of multiplayer games. My final SMAC mod reworked basic city growth, to address ICS and bloat.

1) Cities would grow faster but colony pods were much more expensive (100 minerals iirc). The logic was that it would be a lot harder to establish life support and industry in an entirely new city than to build a few new apartments in an existing city. You'd start with four colony pods but past that you wouldn't get to building additional bases until turn ~30. Ok but how did cities grow faster? Simple. Citizens only ate one nutrient instead of two. Farms produced two nutrients instead of one. This had the happy effect of making farms a viable alternative to forest-and-forget. Green lands + farm + solar collector = 4/1/(1*elevation). Even brown land would net you a solid 3 nutrients.

2) Also raised the maximum base size before hab complex was need to 10. The point, after all, was to have fewer, bigger bases. Planetary Transit System was still good but not 'I win game.'

3) Increased mineral costs for a lot of facilities because bigger bases produce more minerals sooner. Also toned down severity of ecodamage. Didn't increase mineral costs for units much because the idea was to have fewer bases to manage, not to have smaller militaries.

4) Base square didn't produce any resources. If you had the cash, it would be pretty useful to spend it rushing an early recycling tanks. Your first real research choice was whether to go after recycling tanks or to grab the level 1 tech that lifted nutrient caps so as to take advantage of farms.

It was pretty fun and I thought an improvement on the original system but a game like SMAC is very complex and I perhaps didn't consider all the angles.
 
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A big thing that would need fixing for fewer bases is support. 1 unit supported per pop would have to be baseline but I dunno what you'd modify this by for each level
 

3 others

Augur
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
262
There are a couple of decent documentaries on Sid and Brian on YouTube, but nothing that goes deep into SMAC. There’s one guy who did an hour-long video, but he spends most of the time talking about Mark Fisher... He barely touches on the gameplay and framework of SMAC, so I bailed. I might start looking for written interviews with Sid and Brian from when the game launched—if anyone’s got links, I’d appreciate it.
There's a good 3 part interview with Brian Reynolds himself in Soren Johnson's archives, (who of course is the lead designer of Civ4 & Old World).

The interviews are here, and the Alpha Centauri stuff is in part 2. If you're reading this in the future, the relevant episodes are 38-40.

Now, Reynolds is a prolific guy, and SMAC is only a small part of his history, so the vast majority of the interview is about subjects like his time in Berkeley before there was a pathway to "working in video games", MicroProse flight sims, and his later experiences with Zynga. Everything is in chronological order, though, and you'll find what you're after easily.
 

civac2

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
52
We are looking for a temporary replacement for the ongoing Smac Pbem.

Expected time until the turnplayer is back is two weeks. Faction (Gaia) is pretty small so there is not much to do.
 

false Kalin

Arcane
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A big thing that would need fixing for fewer bases is support. 1 unit supported per pop would have to be baseline but I dunno what you'd modify this by for each level
Yes but that's not (or wasn't) modable. Given the choice, would probably change support from the constructing city's minerals (current system) to energy diverted from the entire civilization's net intake, similar to civ3, but repairing injured units would divert minerals from nearby base production.

Have had some thoughts about different ways of simulating population within the 4x genre:
Concept #1: Population & Citizens

Part 1: Citizen Types

SMAC is a successor to Civ2 and it copies Civ’s happy-content-unhappy mechanic. Civ simulates the happiness of a population. If you have an unhappy population you entertain them with a coliseum and thereby make them content. If you too many unhappy citizens, they riot, thereby shutting down their city.

It’s not a bad mechanic but it would be so much more interesting to explore the concept of citizen talent or skill. In this scheme, workers represent the competent and reliable portion of the population. Drones, in contrast, represent the low talent portion of the population that is a net drain of resources. Finally, talents represent the high end of skill; genius level innovators and maintainers.

In game, drones no longer cause riots. Instead, they simply do not work tiles. Each drone eats two nutrients and one energy per turn. In addition, drones deplete one point of research per turn, since they represent dysfunction in society.

Workers can work tiles as normal. They may not be turned into specialists. Instead, each worker may be turned into an urban worker which means he does not work a tile in the base radius but instead produces +3 energy. The point of this mechanic is to allow workers to contribute when they are not needed to work tiles. Each worker in the city eats two nutrients per turn.

Talents can work tiles in the same way as workers but this should be avoided if possible as it is a waste of their abilities. The true potential of a talent is that he can be flipped to make a specialist (Technician, Engineer, Doctor, Empath, Librarian, Thinker, Transcend). Specialists will be more powerful than in vanilla. If you have a talent, you will want to flip him. Each talent (including specialists) eats two nutrients per turn.

Part 2: Population Dynamics

SMAC copies the Civ pattern of growth: a city grows when it stockpiles enough food. Very malthusian. Useful for historical simulation but not so much for representing an advanced technological society. The barrier to growth in real life contemporary technologically advanced societies isn’t lack of food. It’s that people don’t have a lot of children. TFR (total fertility rate) represents the average number of children each woman has over her lifetime.

The social engineering factor GROWTH would be rearranged to represent TFR. A base would grow not when it has stockpiled enough food but when a mathematical formula calculates that enough time has elapsed for new citizens to be born. Of course, there is no separate representation of children/adolescents, so “born” is an abstraction that also represents “matured.”

Each citizen represents 1,000 colonists. In the original game, each citizen represents 10,000 colonists but that adds up to the U.N.S.S. Unity transporting a minimum of 80,000 passengers and I personally find a lower number to be more plausible. These numbers are important and not just academic insofar as they influence population growth. A population of 80,000 will grow its first 1,000 much faster than a population of 8,000!

But, before we get into that, let’s look into another related concept: senility. Your citizens will get old and die. If growth represents TFR, the senility mechanic will be necessary to accurately model population. Clicking on a citizen in the city menu will show his age. We can imagine that each citizen starts at 20 and lives to 70. That’s 50 years before he vanishes. This has a lot of gameplay implications, so please follow closely.

We can imagine that citizens retire at age 60. That means workers and talents turn into drones. Now you might think it’s not fair that a formerly productive citizen should bestow the same negative penalty to research as a drone who has been part of the underclass his whole life but we can justify this on the basis of institutional conservatism. In real life history, we see old generals who don’t adopt to new ways of war, old scientists who refuse to accept new ways of thinking, elderly middle class persons who can’t grasp new social paradigms, etc.

However, senility is not an absolute value. Various factors might increase or decrease senility. A Base with high senility can have low TFR and reasonable long term growth. If you are able to keep your workers productive until age 90, you have gained that many more years of productive work. In addition, the senility stat represents not just lifespan but also health, fertility and other related concepts, so it can itself affect TFR. If, through technological means, women can remain fertile until, say, 80, instead of the current real world value which is closer to 40, then it is only natural we might expect more children.

Note that senility is a value that affects bases and individual citizens. It is not Faction-wide. Factions attempt to influence senility through facilities like the Research Hospital, through specialists like a Doctor, or even through special projects like the Longevity Vaccine.

Note that one of the implications of senility is that specific citizens will get old and die. That means you stand to lose your workers and specialists if you cannot replace them. I think it is also reasonable that talents are locked into specific specialist tiers. Once you make a talent a Doctor, you can never make him an Empath, although you can switch him back to working a tile if necessary.

We envision the Factions of Planet as highly mobile societies, with individual citizens moving from city to city for work or other reasons. They are not like medieval peasants who never go ten miles from the place of their birth. As such, the GROWTH/TFR calculation produces new citizens based on the total population of the faction, not individually for each base. Also, new citizens tend to appear in the bases that are major population centers, not in your smaller locations. What we’re thinking about here is urbanization. Consider the Baltics: Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. The entire population is uprooting from the towns and villages to live in the one or two major cities in each country.

As SMAC Faction leader, this is a problem. Deirdre does not want one Gaia’s Landing megacity where her entire population is concentrated and neither do the other Faction leaders but the individual citizens face strong urbanization pressures. The in-game solution is a special settler unit (distinct from the colony pod). The settler represents the state funneling resources to relocate citizens from the major urban centers to smaller bases of strategic or future economic importance. In-game, the settler cannot build new bases. He can only join existing bases but he is, naturally, much cheaper to produce than a colony pod. You can choose which specific citizens you wish to load onto a settler. You might use him to relocate your drones to a non-productive containment base or you might want to concentrate your talents. It would be a strategic choice.

Also, consider the implication of population loss, perhaps by mindworms. They might eat your drones, as in vanilla, but they might also eat your workers or talents.

Part 3: Nutrients and Starvation

Bases no longer stockpile nutrients. Bases can even grow if they lack sufficient nutrients to feed the new population, though this will result in the immediate starvation of citizens. Starvation may trigger riots which are considerably more serious than in vanilla (to be addressed later) but bases automatically borrow excess nutrients from friendly bases with a freight connection if they would otherwise starve.

This would be a major change to core gameplay for a game that's fine as it is. It's just a concept I'm interested in simulating if ever get my hands on a tool powerful enough to mod this.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,269
Me being peaceful:
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Me 30 turns after deciding to not be so peaceful
HiBptoX.png

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Not needing rec commons is so liberating. At least, you don't need them until your base is grown enough and producing enough that they are cheap. The problem normally is that you practically have to rush-buy them as soon as a base is created.

Funny thing is I've been running free market/democratic/wealth this whole time. In other words, the exact opposite of a warmonger setup. But throwing bodies at problems works.

I do think that, used properly, both Human Genome Project and Planetary Energy Grid are the best early SPs. Weather Paradigm is good, but its really a long-term, tall-only play. You simply don't have the former time to profit from advanced terraforming quickly unless you're running a really lean military, and even then you have to actually grow the pop which takes forever without popbooming. HDP and PEG are the opposite, you get them early and they immediately catapult your economy. You're best off rushing with that, but simply building more formers and running free trade (thanks to not really needing policing) also works since the unlocks for advanced terraforming should be pretty close. Saving 120 minerals worth of facilities per base converts into so much stuff whatever you're gonna do with it.
 

civac2

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
52
I don't understand these assumptions. There is no situation where making many boreholes isn't good.
 
Joined
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You're gonna unlock boreholes pretty quickly, and a WP player can't even use them anywhere but resource locations w/o tech anyway. With a better economy you can just run more formers to compensate by the time you unlock tile limitations.

Again, at least 120 minerals saved per base, along with the energy maintenance. Throw that in formers and you can spam boreholes just as well if not better. Or throw it in impact rovers and go conquer the weather project. Paying mineral upkeep for units is fine if you've got the infrastructure you need built or can rush it with energy.
 

civac2

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
52
You are not gonna afford significantly more former with the HGP or 1-2 energy per base and turn from PEG. That's not realistic. Eventually the faster boreholes snowball. It's not so much you need fewer formers. You get to profit from them sooner with the same/similar amount of formers. Then you have way more production in that base for a few turns and can also rushbuy more with the energy.
 
Joined
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You are not gonna afford significantly more former with the HGP or 1-2 energy per base and turn from PEG. That's not realistic. Eventually the faster boreholes snowball. It's not so much you need fewer formers. You get to profit from them sooner with the same/similar amount of formers. Then you have way more production in that base for a few turns and can also rushbuy more with the energy.

Did the calculations a few pages back:

Weather Paradigm is +50% former speed, not +100%. Faster terraforming also means you spend more time running around and losing former turns to get to places, so that balances out. If you have 1 terraformer per base it's +10 minerals immediate worth of former value and +0.5m/turn in support for each base. Let's say 20 bases, which means it pays itself off immediately (200 minerals saved) and thenceforth "earns" you 10 minerals/turn in saved mineral upkeep.

Merchant Exchange is a famously awful special project that no one should care about for normal gameplay. Let's ignore that.

Human Genome Project: Replaces a Rec Commons at every base. This costs 40 minerals/base for an immediate gain of 800 minerals worth of infrastructure at 20 bases, along with saving 1 energy/turn in upkeep which for 20 bases is 20 energy/turn. Now, you can directly buy 1 mineral with 2 energy so this can be converted into 10 minerals/turn in a much better and more flexible way than base minerals can. So we're looking at 4x the immediate payoff and the same per-turn payoff.

Note: exactly how much HGP saves can depend on what you avoid building, if all you would have needed was 1 police then it obviously saves a lot less, 10m/per base and 1 mineral upkeep/base for a total of 200 minerals and 10 minerals/turn. Which... is exactly the same as WP. If you would have needed later more expensive buildings then its even more powerful than I calculated before. I chose rec commons because its a fairly common early game building you need on transcend.

Virtual World: Costs 300, replaces hologram theaters costing 60/each with 3 upkeep, so 1200 immediate mineral saves and 60 energy/turn, convertable into 30 minerals/turn. Turns out to be similar ratios as HGP, though it has the downside of the fact that you don't often need this much drone suppression everywhere and you need to build the network nodes.

Planetary Energy Grid: Costs 300, gives an energy bank costing 80/each with 1 upkeep. 2400 mineral savings and 20 energy/turn. And unlike the other two you do kind of want energy banks literally everywhere.

Keep in mind, ALL of these SPs are amazingly useful once you have tons of bases. The problem is that they require a huge initial investment that you can't pool all of those base's mineral income to rush (until supply crawlers). Which means you're risking a lot of immediate time to go for one, and as I've said on transcend it seems usually not worth it (though you can disband non-supply crawlers for half their construction cost towards the project, I'll have to try using that to rush SPs sometime...)

On the other hand, impact rover spam is something you CAN dedicate all of your 20 bases towards, and quickly skyrockets you to having 30 bases and a nice SP along with it. The only problem is if all the good SPs are magically finised by some AI on the other side of the world. But at long as 1 or 2 decent ones are nearby you can take it and adjust your plan to fit with what you get.

As to WPs early unlocking of terraforming, it's kind of hit or miss. Really depends on your resources, since condensor farms are only particularly good on food resources while boreholes need minerals or energy resources and also take a ton of time to finish.

WP does get better if you're running more formers per base but 2 formers per base is kinda excessive early game and asking to be killed by anyone.
 

civac2

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
52
That depends. MP games are often played on large maps. You get to develop for a while. Come midgame you want more than 2 formers per base.

Anyway, these calculations are a bit silly.
The real calculation for the PEG is the extra energy from the free energy banks per turn and base vs nothing. Of course, you are not gonna build energy banks without PEG until deep into the midgame. They are awful investments which are not worth anywhere near their nominal value translated into formers, colony pods and units.
HGP calculation isn't too bad. It's worth comes from being able to run FM or allowing Popbooming via golden ages for some faction.
VW, same thing as PEG. You are not gonna build Network Nodes nor Hologram Theaters early. VW is amazing for Zakharov. Otherwise it's a secret project that only becomes strong in the midgame.
WP, you calculate half a former per base and the savings from less maintenance. As I have been trying to get across to you that is the wrong way to look at it. With WP you build as many or more formers as without it. (More because an individual former is a better deal with WP.) Than you blanket Chiron with boreholes. (BTW, condensers remove the food limit for that tile.)
 
Joined
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You build more formers with non-WP SPs, because they save you minerals. WP doesn't save you minerals except by making your formers more efficient.

More than 2 formers per base is absolutely insane, either someone will kill you or you could have killed someone with those invested into rovers.
 

civac2

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
52
As mentioned on bigger maps that is not an issue. Moreover, war against humans tends to not be very profitable in Smac.

As I have written above and you insist to ignore the PEG and VW do not save you minerals in the early game, the HGP does to an extent admittedly. If you do not get the PEG you don't build Energy Banks. They are terrible. Thus there is no minerals savings. You do get a bit more money to rushbuy stuff but the extra production from boreholes and the lesser cost of the WP overwhelm that advantage.
 
Joined
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As I have written above and you insist to ignore the PEG and VW do not save you minerals in the early game, the HGP does to an extent admittedly. If you do not get the PEG you don't build Energy Banks. They are terrible. Thus there is no minerals savings. You do get a bit more money to rushbuy stuff but the extra production from boreholes and the lesser cost of the WP overwhelm that advantage.
PEG gets you at least 2 energy per base and realistically more like 3-4 even in the early game if you don't build energy grida. That directly translates into 1-2 minerals per base which means 1-2 units supported
 

civac2

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
52
That's a much more realistic evaluation. Still, consider that PEG has significantly higher tech requirement that is not on the Centauri Ecology into Industrial Automation beeline and is also more expensive. I'm not arguing PEG isn't strong but it's not as good as WP, not even close.
 
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Industrial Automation isn't really something you need to beeline if you're ICSing.

Also to be clear I'm assuming that we're talking about thinker where the research costs are not retarded. Beelines are massively less important in Thinker.

It's also worth noting that since PEG is one of the lone good SPs after the starting techs for a long time, it's ideal for saving up your old units and alien artifacts to help rush it. You don't want to risk a gamble on a project some AI has already started (and which it can build twice as fast as you due to difficulty cheats), but you do want to get maximum value out of it.
 

ghardy

Educated
Joined
Jun 18, 2024
Messages
338
Will there ever be anything as good as this game?
 

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