Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[felipepepe]

See, what I believe is that it's actually

W2 is Y and I didn't really want Y in this sort of game so I'm gonna complain about lots of things that other people would just ignore because they're too busy enjoying the Y.

And who are these "other people"? I can look at Skyrim and see a dumbed-down RPG for casuals, but that is still fun to play for them and even for me when not expecting a deep RPG. Bethesda was aiming for mass market, and it clearly hit.

Now, how about Wasteland 2? It pretends to be old-school, which will drive casuals away, but also fails to deliver any depth, which will drive RPG fans away... who is this game for then?

First of all, Wasteland 2 is not a fantasy RPG. I've spoken before about how post-apoc can't really compete with fantasy games in terms of tactics. (and of course "fantasy" in this context also includes Shadowrun)

And there's a reason why the post beneath that starts with BULLSHIT (besides being a Excidium post). Aimed shots, knee shots, triple shot, fast shot, precise shot, burst fire, covering fire... those can all be applied to even the most realistic shooter... which W2 is not. Wasteland 2 is a game that could have a "extra hand" perk/trait, where radiation made you grow an extra limb that can hold an additional weapon. But it chooses doing nothing instead.

 

[Infinitron]

Second, I don't think Wasteland 2 is the same "Y" as Fallout Tactics or JA2 or other "tactical RPGs". Call those "Z", if you will.

So what games can W2 be compared to then?

I never said you couldn't compare them, but I would say that what the game is aiming for is something like "original Wasteland" in terms of high level overall design + "somewhere between Fallout and Fallout Tactics" in terms of specific lower level stuff like combat, etc. So, if I were to write a review of the final product, I would first to try to see how well it succeeded at that.

 

[Jagged Appliance]

Is that what it was aiming for or is that just how it's turning out?

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

hiver
Ah so you still have hope from the greenhorns and the washouts with only 6 months remaining. Updated my hiver.txt

See, what I believe is that it's actually

First of all, Wasteland 2 is not a fantasy RPG. I've spoken before about how post-apoc can't really compete with fantasy games in terms of tactics. (and of course "fantasy" in this context also includes Shadowrun)

And there's a reason why the post beneath that starts with BULLSHIT (besides being a Excidium post). Aimed shots, knee shots, triple shot, fast shot, precise shot, burst fire, covering fire... those can all be applied to even the most realistic shooter... which W2 is not. Wasteland 2 is a game that could have a "extra hand" perk/trait, where radiation made you grow an extra limb that can hold an additional weapon. But it chooses doing nothing instead.

I am looking forward to how Infinitron rationalizes this away, if he bothers to anyways.

 

[Gord]

W2's combat: 8 kinds of weapons, 1 stance and cover.

SRR's Combat: 9 kinds of weapons (each with about 7 skills), 2 levels of cover, classes unique skills (mage's spells, shaman's totems, barries and summons, Adept's Chi Casting) Drones, environmental use, criticals, buff drugs...

If anything, I think SRR (less so in Dragonfall, however) shows that having numerous available options does not automatically make for great combat. I agree that the ingredients might have been there in SRR - and it was good for what it was (tm), but the execution was still lacking.
It had serious balancing issues, the AI was handicapped and the encounter design could have been improved, too (which they did in Dragonfall).

They have however learned from their mistakes and delivered a much better experience in Dragonfall.
Which probably shows that there's always room for hope.

Wasteland 2 is even still in Beta (which should probably have been called an Alpha :trollin': ) and while I've not played that one, my experience from other alphas/betas is that there's still a lot of room for sometimes quite substantial improvements over short times - especially in areas as combat and balancing. If that will happen I don't know of course. Maybe the game will be bsb when it's out.

Of course I can comfortably lean back and wait, since I'm no backer anyway, so my opinion might not be worth much...

 

[felipepepe]

I never said that SRR had amazing combat, but it's definetly above W2's current combat. And in true Codex fashion, I prefer unbalanced and chaotic gameplay than polished but boring games.

 

[hiver]

hiver
Ah so you still have hope from the greenhorns and the washouts with only 6 months remaining. Updated my hiver.txt

Hope? Not really.

I just never indulged in the classic codex precognitive telepathy of claiming the game will be shit or great - before the game comes out. Well, at least not unless it was really, really glaringly obvious such as was the case of Faceplam 3, DA2 and other such console ports obviously made for mass market imbeciles by teams not capable of creating good games, let alone true RPGs.

Simply, theoretically speaking... with the foundations this beta 1.0 shows... such a team should be able to construct some interesting gameplay, in the time they have left.
of course, if it was me... any responsible for these horrible examples of gameplay would be fired instantly.

As for the sea`s post. I only said thats what i expect to hear, and that what he said all sounds good. Has nothing to do with what they will actually do - eventually. Which will be judged on the same merits as the Beta.
I previously said that this Beta will show if they are capable of constructing anything really good in terms of gameplay. I was wrong since obviously, they spent all the time from the first Alpha in correcting bugs and broken features and actually making a Beta out of it.
If i was to bet my money though, i would put some for the game being mediocre, uninspired effort at best. I wouldnt put a single dollar on it being great.

 

[tuluse]

I never said that SRR had amazing combat, but it's definetly above W2's current combat. And in true Codex fashion, I prefer unbalanced and chaotic gameplay than polished but boring games.

W2 beats SSR in a few ways. Higher number of actions points do allow more interesting game play. You can move, attack, and move again from level 1, some characters can move and attack twice.

The weapons have more pronounced differences and it gives a better feel.

There are more varied status effects. Attribute lowering effects come to mind.

There is a wound system when characters get incapacitated.

Destructible cover and stances are being added.


(However, SRR return has 4 levels of cover, None, empty shield, half shield, full shield). I think W2 has multiple levels of cover as well, but it's not well communicated.

 

[Excidium]

You know it's bad when you need a breakdown to prove combat has more depth than SRR

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

yet I'm the one with the fanboy tag?

Should be Infinitron's and not mine....

First not shitty post you've made on here.

 

[t]

Ok guys, grab your crystal balls, I have a serious question. How much is being in the top100 best sellers on steam for 3 months worth?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I demand a new emote, only for the WL2 thread.

 

[buzz]

Ok guys, grab your crystal balls, I have a serious question. How much is being in the top100 best sellers on steam for 3 months worth?

Probably not that much of a big deal since just above Wasteland 2 are Counter Strike and Call of Duty 5 (the last released one is 10). Or maybe I'm missing something and those shooters that everyone and their mother should've owned already still sell hundreds/thousands every day.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

hiver
So WL2 is still salvageable in the 6 months left with a competent team, but will probably be a bland mediocre product on completion is what you are saying.

yeah, agree with that.

 

[J_C]

Ok guys, grab your crystal balls, I have a serious question. How much is being in the top100 best sellers on steam for 3 months worth?

I doubt that anyone would know this.

 

[t]

Well, we have some data about how much AoD made, but it includes other forms of prepurchase and it never quite got as high as W2 did.

Also, we couldn't really extrapolate linearly, could we? And assuming some arbitrary distribution of sales pretty much defeats the purpose.

 

[felipepepe]

I never said that SRR had amazing combat, but it's definetly above W2's current combat. And in true Codex fashion, I prefer unbalanced and chaotic gameplay than polished but boring games.

W2 beats SSR in a few ways.

Higher number of actions points do allow more interesting game play. You can move, attack, and move again from level 1, some characters can move and attack twice.

Yes, but in the end the lack of options to spend the action points severely limit what you can do. Once you're in cover, all you can do is use the standard fire. That leads to ranged characters being created based on "permanet costs". A rifle costs 5 to shoot, so either a rifle user has 5 AP or 10 AP; anything in between is wasted.

The weapons have more pronounced differences and it gives a better feel.

Individual weapons yes, but as categories no, as the skills are completly different and so a rifle guy will have different tactics than a pistol bro.

There are more varied status effects. Attribute lowering effects come to mind.

C'mon... SRR has way more, incluiding buffs & debuffs from spells, items and skills, as well as cool stuff like mind-control.

There is a wound system when characters get incapacitated.

Ok, agreed.

Destructible cover and stances are being added.

And you just said that SRR has twice the ammount of cover types.

And there's still all the weapon skills, races, classes, spellcasting... again, is more chaotic but also more interesting. IF inXile adds stuff like aimed shots, unlockable skills, better encounter design and the likes, then W2 would indeed beat SRR; but considering they have 3 months to "feature complete", I doubt we'll see something that big of an overhaul...

 

[tuluse]

"Beats SRR in a few ways" does not mean overall better, but I don't think SRR's system is overall better than W2 either.

C'mon... SRR has way more, incluiding buffs & debuffs from spells, items and skills, as well as cool stuff like mind-control.

I actually forgot about most of the debuffs because other than -AP, they so rarely happen.

One thing InXile has done much better is add passive effects to normal enemy attacks, so you actually experience the debuffs.

 

[Zetor]

You use a lot of those buff and debuff spells in content that requires it (the base campaigns don't, though blind/stun/petrify/mindcontrol are very useful even then). Playing Very Hard without a maxed Aim buff is probably setting yourself up for frustration. Having -armor and slow/immobilize debuffs as well as all the damaging persistent AOE fields is very useful against boss-type enemies, or in combat situations that aren't "kill all the enemy dudes", which Dragonfall has a lot of. Does WL2?

SRR also has stackable cover (having two med cover objects between you and shooter > having one heavy cover object between the two) and differentiates between LOS blocking / bullet blocking / movement blocking for each object.

Anyway -- I'll wait until WL2 is feature-complete before I cast judgment either way, but right now it doesn't look so good. And this comes from someone who had WL1 in his 'best 25 CRPGs ever' list...

 

[Infinitron]

SRR's obligatory Haste and Aim buffing can get kind of tiresome actually

PoE will do that stuff better.

 

[hiver]

Which wound system are you talking about tuluse? As far as i see even that was simplified in the latest build.

Now you have two medicine items, without which it is impossible to heal anything. One is the basic Trauma kit - which is used to heal any serious injury - when it gets your character into an unconscious state.
And thats all as far as heavier wounds are concerned.
They can have a few different names to them - but all you do is apply the basic Trauma kit - or two if damage is greater - and nothing else. Text tweaks.

There is a basic Medic pack which is used to heal Con or HP points, but only while the characters are conscious. And ONLY by a "Field Medic".

So... you have two types of injuries and each has one single way to heal them. Just trying to apply Surgeon skill doesnt do anything - if you dont have the trauma kit.
(there was one single instance of applying just raw skill on one particular NPC - when the game specifically allows it in the whole beta and im not sure if that is a bug or not and it just brings uncomfortable questions about... how come i cant use my very high Surgeon skill otherwise?)

There are sutures, who can be applied by "Field Medic" only, to stop the bleeding - only on a conscious character, and anti-poisons i never used once since any poison damage is laughable and stops after a few seconds at worst.

One thing InXile has done much better is add passive effects to normal enemy attacks, so you actually experience the debuffs.

Wut? Who? How?

-edit-

oh right, you mean those different status effects you get, rarely, from tougher enemis. Well, if you have the basic trauma kit... they are gone.

Some, apparently cannot be removed at all (the wounded knee, for example) - until you get to a normal doctor who can remove them. I have no idea if they could be healed by my surgeon if i maxed her surgeon skill to full 10 points - since nothing tells me so.

I could try that out easily since i have gazillion of skill points to burn.

 

[tuluse]

Which wound system are you talking about tuluse? As far as i see even that was simplified in the latest build.

When a character goes below 0 con, when you get them up they have a wound like a broken bone or something. I haven't spent much time with the last build.

-edit- oh right, you mean those different status effects you get... right... well, if you have the basic trauma kit... they are gone.

Some, apparently cannot be removed at all (the wounded knee, for example) - until you get to a normal doctor who can remove them. I have no idea if they could be healed by my surgeon if i maxed her surgeon skill to full 10 points - since nothing tells me so.

Yeah, but it's at least something to consider.

 

[hiver]

It is but, all you do really is apply one or the other item... (and you get a lot of those very quickly in the current beta, without any grinding, just doing the random encounters you normally get going from place to place alone + the loot from the quests)

I havent even seen that most of them require some specific amount of surgeon skill to solve anymore... but i might be wrong since i increased surgeon skill of that character rather quickly, above 6 points. So maybe requirements dont show then, anymore.

Someone will correct me if im wrong.

 

[toro]

Someone will correct me if im wrong.

And lose all the fun? No.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

another quote https://twitter.com/BrianFargo/status/448989484042821632/photo/1