Review The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings Review

[VentilatorOfDoom]

And do you see what an insignificant point it is to make? Especially when you try to stretch it into "this game is just like Dragon Age II!"

I take this as some sort of artistic freedom to interprete what I said. In the meantime you can explain to me how kill y/n quests in TW2 differ in pure awesomeness from similar DA2 quests. Bonus points if you can do it without using examples of quests I was never referring to.

No it isn't, not by any definition of flavor I know. If you knock him out, the dialog of Triss is different (like, with a different person), and you have a different sidequest (finding the madam instead of saving the minorities).

Unlocking one side quest and closing another isn't a huge impact. But it is something. When we say flavor, we mean a few lines of dialog to recognize I made a choice and nothing else. A change in sidequests, different dialog and the town being in a different state is - by definition - more than flavor.

First, I don't remember having received a *save the minorities* quest, so maybe I'm missing something here. Second, the only difference I noticed was which whore (or both) was still alive to tell the same story. Plus, possiblly making a shortcut downstairs to see that the one whore has hanged herself. You called that significant enough to be not just flavor? Well, I disagree.

It'd be kind of suck if a time event would lock you into a path not just for the remainder of Act I, but Act II and III as well.

Why? Whereas the later choice is just arbitrary, regardless of what you've done you can pick either side, at this point it would actually make sense. Giving the sword to Iorveth clearly indicates that you're picking him over Roche.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Or perhaps it indicates that Geralt has a sense of honor? Think about it, that elven fucker helped him out, and his way of repaying the favor is to let him go into that battle with a sword instead of nothing at all.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

On the other hand, if you think about it, how many other RPGs had done C&C better than TW2 with its level of contextualisation?

I wouldn't have played the game 4x in a row if I thought it sucked. You will soon be able to read in detail what I think about TW2 C&C.

Or perhaps it indicates that Geralt has a sense of honor? Think about it, that elven fucker helped him out, and his way of repaying the favor is to let him go into that battle with a sword instead of nothing at all.

OK. Makes sense I suppose.

 

[Mrowak]

First, I don't remember having received a *save the minorities* quest, so maybe I'm missing something here. Second, the only difference I noticed was which whore (or both) was still alive to tell the same story. Plus, possiblly making a shortcut downstairs to see that the one whore has hanged herself. You called that significant enough to be not just flavor? Well, I disagree.

That begs for question: what kind of choice is not flavour?

 

[Mrowak]

On the other hand, if you think about it, how many other RPGs had done C&C better than TW2 with its level of contextualisation?

I wouldn't have played the game 4x in a row if I thought it sucked. You will soon be able to read in detail what I think about TW2 C&C.

I have never accused you of blatant hatism, volorunism or skywaism. I am just interested if there are among Codex's favourites examples of stroy-heavy C&C done better.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Rance.

 

[Brother None]

I wouldn't have played the game 4x in a row if I thought it sucked. You will soon be able to read in detail what I think about TW2 C&C.

I sure hope your thoughts will be better thought out than what you've been offering here then, VOD.

In the meantime you can explain to me how kill y/n quests in TW2 differ in pure awesomeness from similar DA2 quests.

You mean how the list of quests you cherry-picked to be binary. I don't care how they compare to DA2. And you still got them wrong as the wraith and dragon options are not yes/no issues. A most of them from the endgame, big shock that they don't have long-term consequences. So yeah, good luck with that line of argument and stretching it into a valid DA2 comparison.

First, I don't remember having received a *save the minorities* quest, so maybe I'm missing something here.

You might not've. I didn't notice the madam quest until I checked back in Act II and saw it as marked failed. I'm not 100% sure the minorities quest is also listed in the book as a side-quest, regardless it is an activity with rewards.

Second, the only difference I noticed was which whore (or both) was still alive to tell the same story. Plus, possiblly making a shortcut downstairs to see that the one whore has hanged herself. You called that significant enough to be not just flavor? Well, I disagree.

Wow, you didn't even notice Triss isn't talking to the same person? Your powers of perception amaze me.

This is hilarious. I have explained how this one choice results in -> the town being in a different state -> Triss having different dialog and learning different things -> one side-quest being opened and one being closed, and the best you can do is "no it isn't"? C'mon now. By your standard of flavor, if closing and opening a side-quest isn't good enough, then what the hell kind of non-main quest choices can EVER be non-flavor?

Why?

Because it is a high-paced situation where Geralt is focused on something else and just has to make a snap decision based on an incomplete understanding of both the situation and the consequences of his action. This is TW2's way of hinting to you that choices can have big and unforeseen circumstances before it offers you the big choice of the game. That is outstanding game design.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Rance.

Actually, there's a lot of truth to that statement.

 

[grotsnik]

Good review, BN. Very thoughtful.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

That begs for question: what kind of choice is not flavour?

Let's look at the situation: You have to find Triss, but she's gone. Ask the whores! YOu go to the whores, both NPCs you have no business with, who don't matter in a story context, who you'll never see again and whose death or life won't have any impact on anything. Now there are different iterations, maybe either one is dead or maybe both are still alive. Anyway, whoever is still alive tells you exactly the same story. Then you go find Cedric. I hope you see how this quest progresses in a linear manner with the iterations not really mattering.

Picking Roche or Iorveth clearly matters a lot and is obviously not flavor. Disagree?

 

[Brother None]

You just ignored the changes to the rest of town, unlocking different side-quests, and the changes to who Triss is talking to and the fact that you learn different things from that talk.

You have a terrible definition of flavor consequences. What RPG lives up to your standard of having choices have this much of an impact? I never see the NPCs of Fallout again since I don't tend to travel back to towns, and they don't impact the main quest, so are all location choices in Fallout flavor choices? By your definition, yup.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I sense some rivalry between VoDerp and Sister Nun... and it's been ever so long since we had a train tickets thread...

Cough! But anyway! Sister Nun is right. (Though I personally found the town in riot to be a much funnier place to be, since it allowed you to kill some of the derpers present within the town.)

 

[Reptilian Shapeshifter]

The greatest weakness of TW2 is the unbalanced (broken) combat/skill progression and other mechanics issues like the targeting system. The "adventure" part (C&C, branching) was implemented fairly well, though Act 3 was clearly underdeveloped. It was the "action" part that failed in my book, providing no challenge/skill requirement beyond the prologue, getting easier and easier all the way to the end. Again, no sense of achievement.

Compare this to Gothic 1/2 (same type of action-adventure), and there's a world of difference.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Good review, BN

I mean, I didn't really enjoy TW2, personally, but the review is good.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You mean how the list of quests you cherry-picked to be binary. I don't care how they compare to DA2. And you still got them wrong as the wraith and dragon options are not yes/no issues. A most of them from the endgame, big shock that they don't have long-term consequences. So yeah, good luck with that line of argument and stretching it into a valid DA2 comparison.

I take this as a "No, I can't."

Wow, you didn't even notice Triss isn't talking to the same person? Your powers of perception amaze me.

Thanks. I did notice that Triss speaks to either Eilhart or Detmold. I will take notes, different cutscene=prime example of C&C. Thanks for sharing your insight.

This is hilarious. I have explained how this one choice results in -> the town being in a different state -> Triss having different dialog and learning different things -> one side-quest being opened and one being closed, and the best you can do is "no it isn't"? C'mon now. By your standard of flavor, if closing and opening a side-quest isn't good enough, then what the hell kind of non-main quest choices can EVER be non-flavor?

The sidequest consists of going downstairs and seeing that the whore has hanged herself. You will excuse me if I don't shit my pants in excitement. Glad you liked it though.

Because it is a high-paced situation where Geralt is focused on something else and just has to make a snap decision based on an incomplete understanding of both the situation and the consequences of his action. This is TW2's way of hinting to you that choices can have big and unforeseen circumstances before it offers you the big choice of the game. That is outstanding game design.

Outstanding game design. Good to know.

 

[Brother None]

I take this as a "No, I can't."

Not really, since I never played DA2. And yet I still know you're only making the comparison to get a rise out of people.

Thanks. I did notice that Triss speaks to either Eilhart or Detmold. I will take notes, different cutscene=prime example of C&C.
(...)
The sidequest consists of going downstairs and seeing that the whore has hanged herself. You will excuse me if I don't shit my pants in excitement. Glad you liked it though.
(...)
Outstanding game design. Good to know.

What's with the hostility?

I enumerated various arguments which you are only addressing here with snide one-liners. And all this is about is the fact that you stubbornly cling to your opinion that somehow a choice that results in different side-quests (yes, small ones, and I never said I liked them, since that isn't the point), different plot information, a different result for the town and an optional extra path in the main quest (with Iorveth) is somehow a "flavor" choice.

The easier choice here would be to go "yeah, I was wrong, this isn't a flavor choice. Though the Witcher 2 certainly does have flavor choices, this just isn't one of them". Or, if you want to keep going, please explain how you come to define flavor choice as something different than how everyone else is defining it (i.e. a choice with the only impact being a few lines of dialog or some scenery changing: see why it's called flavor? Because the content doesn't change while the flavor does, unlike this choice, which changes content, even if not hugely), and offer a satisfactory definition that doesn't include most choices from most RPGs ever.

C&C bro! OR IS IT ONLY A FLAVOR CHOICE?! Only time will tell.

PS: the bit with Triss talking has you making dialog choices, so it's not a cutscene. Just an FYI.

I sense some rivalry between VoDerp and Sister Nun...

Not really. I dig the dude more than the rest of you unappreciative ass bandits do. But he's just being a troll here.

Good review, BN

I mean, I didn't really enjoy TW2, personally, but the review is good.

You can't think a review you disagree with is good, you're breaking internet law.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Not really, since I never played DA2. And yet I still know you're only making the comparison to get a rise out of people.

Problem?

I just don't like the double standards on the Codex when it comes to TW2. I've even seen a thread where the fact that you could die during a cutscene (being hostile to Iorveth would get you shot) has been hailed as awesome C&C. Even NWN had that. It might be a neat gimmick but IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. Because there is no choice involved, at least if you plan to play on.

TW2, much like DA2, has a lot of minor choices which matter little. It also has a couple of well presented and excellently executed ones, which is what makes the difference I suppose. And I never denied that.

What's with the hostility?

Blame yourself.

I enumerated various arguments which you are only addressing here with snide one-liners. And all this is about is the fact that you stubbornly cling to your opinion that somehow a choice that results in different side-quests (yes, small ones, and I never said I liked them, since that isn't the point), different plot information and a different result for the town is somehow a "flavor" choice.

And I explained my position. You disagree? Fine, that's your call after all.

 

[Brother None]

I just don't like the double standards on the Codex when it comes to TW2. I've even seen a thread where the fact that you could die during a cutscene (being hostile to Iorveth would get you shot) has been hailed as awesome C&C. Even NWN had that. It might be a neat gimmick but IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. Because there is no choice involved, at least if you plan to play on.

Well, considering the, uhm, day and age we live in, I too was pretty impressed by that. Is it the most awesome thing of all time? Nope. Is it a pretty good example of the game's willingness to punish you for being an idiot. Yip.

It doesn't just do it for Iorveth, btw.

TW2, much like DA2, has a lot of minor choices which matter little.

So does every other RPG ever made. Your point?

Blame yourself.

Why?

And I explained my position. You disagree? Fine, that's your call after all.

No you didn't. You stated your position and repeated it. You haven't actually explained anything. The only explanation you came close to giving was that it's flavor as long as it doesn't derail the main quest track, but that seems such a ludicrous argument I just skipped over it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you knock him out, the dialog of Triss is different (like, with a different person), and you have a different sidequest (finding the madam instead of saving the minorities).
...
Wow, you didn't even notice Triss isn't talking to the same person? Your powers of perception amaze me.

Triss talks to a different person based on your choice? Well, god fucking damn, BN! Either you're easily fucking amused or the Witcher 2 is the best game evar.

 

[Brother None]

Triss talks to a different person based on your choice? Well, god fucking damn, BN! Either you're easily fucking amused or the Witcher 2 is the best game evar.

Hey man, I didn't bring up this quest as particularly praise-worthy, I'm just explaining why it isn't a flavor choice. As in it has tangible, gameplay-related consequences.

I dug the quest structure of many quests, but for consequences, only the big main choice blew me out of the water, as the review explains.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well, considering the, uhm, day and age we live in, I too was pretty impressed by that. Is it the most awesome thing of all time? Nope. Is it a pretty good example of the game's willingness to punish you for being an idiot. Yip.

You're easily impressed. Again, neat but not worthy of any particular praise.

So does every other RPG ever made. Your point?

If every other RPG does it, why praise it in TW2? Point enough?

Why?

Because you've started. I didn't even reply in the same vein btw.

No you didn't. You stated your position and repeated it. You haven't actually explained anything. The only explanation you came close to giving was that it's flavor as long as it doesn't derail the main quest track, but that seems such a ludicrous argument I just skipped over it.

Shocking, but you did the same. Before we continue to move in circles, I recognize the choice in question as not being a flavor one according to your definition. Happy?

 

[Brother None]

You're easily impressed.

Really? You've posted on a lot of my reviews. How easily impressed do you think I am?

Note I'm not impressed by being able to die through dialog an sich, I said I'm impressed with it in the context of the day and age we live in. That's just a sad truth you either live with or don't. When I write reviews, it's certainly a factor.

If every other RPG does it, why praise it in TW2?

I don't know. Why?

Barring a good punchline, I seem to have stepped into some ongoing and no doubt fascinating TW2 debate here on the Codex that I have absolutely nothing to do with, I was foolishly assuming replies ITT would tangentially relate to my review rather than an ongoing debate. More's the fool me. If you guys want to split over two sides with one side unduly praising fairly minor C&C bits (though I don't see that side present here, other than the original potatohead poster, but I'll take your word for it) and the other one unduly spewing bile over it (BioWare-esque!) then by all means. I didn't mean to get in your way.

Because you've started.

Always convincing.

Happy?

I do tend to be happy as a rule. I feel pretty ok now. How about you?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Other than New Vegas, I don't think there's any recent AAA RPG with a choice and plot structure quite like TW2. Because you just list a bunch of binary choices as if they're available to everyone. While some people will have another option for the dragon, and others will not, but you apparently don't know that because of the path you followed. And the big choice is big. Really really big. Like woooosh big.

That big, eh?

Anyway, the binary choices aren't available to everyone and are filtered by your choices. That makes them good all of a sudden? BG2 had plenty of such choices, but I don't recall it being heralded as the next coming of Jesus.

The side quests aren't impressive in comparison to the main quest, which constantly changes how it plays out based on choices you make.

No, it doesn't. It's linear as fuck, but it has a nice fork which, apparently, hypnotizes people.

And some sidequests don't even appear based on choices you made earlier. And some sidequests branch a bit more and allow the use of different skills, like the quests involved the peddler of fisstech-like herbs.

Truly "an “evolved” RPG".

What? Giving Iorveth the sword completely changes what happens in town...

And how does it affect gameplay?

As VoD stated:

"First, the decision impacts only whether a progrom breaks out or not. It doesn't matter if you choose to save some insignificant NPCs or decide to just stand and watch (why would you even do that - for teh lulz?) You're soon leaving town to never return, so it doesn't matter. That's flavor. Well done flavor, better than you're typically Bio flavor choices, because the game succeeds at showing you that you're choice had a visible effect but it's flavor nontheless. Second, whether you gave the sword to Iorveth or not, this decision doesn't prevent you from making the actual significant choice either way, to go to the lair of the elves or to go to Roche. This is the only choice that matters and it has an effect on the rest of the quests in Chapter 1 (and 2), what you did previously with the sword doesn't matter at all."

Your rebuttal to his point was "Triss talking to a different person" (flavor) and "you get different but painfully basic quests like find Margo". It's flavor. Better than Bio flavor, but flavor nonetheless.

Later you said:

"I have explained how this one choice results in -> the town being in a different state -> Triss having different dialog and learning different things -> one side-quest being opened and one being closed, and the best you can do is "no it isn't"?"

I don't think that what VoD said (above) can be summed up as "no, it isn't". Let's argue in good faith, shall we?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Really? You've posted on a lot of my reviews. How easily impressed do you think I am?

Note I'm not impressed by being able to die through dialog an sich, I said I'm impressed with it in the context of the day and age we live in. That's just a sad truth you either live with or don't. When I write reviews, it's certainly a factor.

Fair enough, but is just a gimmick. What's next, praising Skyrim for not having a dialogue wheel (after years of ME-like dialogue wheels) effectively achieving the same standard we had decades ago?

Barring a good punchline, I seem to have stepped into some ongoing and no doubt fascinating TW2 debate here on the Codex that I have absolutely nothing to do with, I was foolishly assuming replies ITT would tangentially relate to my review rather than an ongoing debate. More's the fool me. If you guys want to split over two sides with one side unduly praising fairly minor C&C bits (though I don't see that side present here, other than the original potatohead poster, but I'll take your word for it) and the other one unduly spewing bile over it (BioWare-esque!) then by all means. I didn't mean to get in your way.

Sorry. I see your review -undeservedly - doesn't trigger much interest on GB. So your wish to discuss it somewhere is understandable. Will try to keep this thread more on topic. We can skip this discussion until our own review is up.

In the meantime I have to say I disagree with some things in your review. Take Quen for example. Maybe it's the laziest way to play but I fail to see how it is overpowered compared to other stuff. Bombs, throwing daggers, Igni, Yrden, shitloads of HP and DR from warrior skills. If anything is to blame it's the fact that you can play the game without spending any skillpoints at all, so if you actually spend points on anything you're getting more and more overpowered the farther you progress.

I do tend to be happy as a rule. I feel pretty ok now. How about you?

Pretty good actually. Public holiday yesterday, free day today. Had time posting on the 'Dex.

 

[Brother None]

Anyway, the binary choices aren't available to everyone and are filtered by your choices. That makes them good all of a sudden? BG2 had plenty of such choices, but I don't recall it being heralded as the next coming of Jesus.

I do. Is comparison to BG2 a bad thing now? I'm not a big BioWare fan but hey, you could do worse.

I didn't herald it as the second coming of Jesus, by the way. I feel a choice which completely changes the way the rest of the game plays except for two main quests in Act II and the side-quests in Act III is, in fact, impressive. Sue me.

No, it doesn't. It's linear as fuck, but it has a nice fork which, apparently, hypnotizes people.

If it has a fork it's not linear by definition. It also has more than one fork, for instance in your choice in the castle in the prologue determining how you escape the dungeon. Act II isn't linear for most of it until you hit the ending "ghost battle/siege of Vergen" nodes, before that you can do various main quests running simultaneously in any order which isn't particularly freeform since you still have to do them all, but it's not exactly corridor style either. Then there's Act III, which either has three main quest paths for one choice or two main quest paths for another.

Yup. Linear as fuck. Can I just ask, how often did you finish this game? Because I wasn't as impressed with it first time out as second time out, let me tell you.

Truly "an “evolved” RPG".

Yup. You at least realize I was using the term "evolved" to make fun of the tendency of certain developers to excuse idiotic design decisions as evolution, specifically and recently with Hunted: The Demon's Forge.

Your rebuttal to his point was "Triss talking to a different person" (flavor) and "you get different but painfully basic quests like find Margo". It's flavor. Better than Bio flavor, but flavor nonetheless.

The dialog with Triss can lead to different knowledge which may or may not be useful depending on the main path you follow. It is valuable to the narrative, which isn't what I think of when I think of flavor "thank you" bits of dialog. But fine, all dialog is flavor, that is acceptable.

Yet you asked, literally, "how does it affect gameplay". In one path, I can spend time saving a bunch of non-humans. In another path, I can check up on the madam. How exactly do you define that if not "gameplay"? Is there some other word for this activity?

I also noted the impact on the town is visible (flavor) and another option is unlocked or locked in the main path for Iorveth (gameplay).

I don't think that what VoD said (above) can be summed up as "no, it isn't".

Can't it?

In that paragraph he explains how the consequences of the choice have no further consequences. It's true, it doesn't matter if you save the non-humans or check on the madam. A clever step ahead, because we're not actually discussing whether that matters or not, we're discussing whether the quest unlocking it has enough consequences to not be flavor. If you keep skipping steps ahead eventually you'll hit up flavor quests. Does that mean every quest back to the top is flavor? The whole paragraph simply had no relevance to anything I was saying, other to highlight that VoD has a different definition of flavor than I do, apparently also including a minimum size of unlocked sidequests (a quest is only not flavor if the sidequests it unlock in turn have consequences?) before something becomes a real consequence. And that's fine, as duly noted. Differing definitions, it is what it is.

Fair enough, but is just a gimmick. What's next, praising Skyrim for not having a dialogue wheel (after years of ME-like dialogue wheels) effectively achieving the same standard we had decades ago?

I probably would. I think I complimented Fallout 3 on using standard dialog, though I didn't review it. Any positive step is a positive step, and I have to note it exists if I'm reviewing because my readerbase cares about it.

Sorry. I see your review -undeservedly - doesn't trigger much interest on GB.

Hmmm? It's got plenty of comments, about half of this thread only all the posts there are about the review

Will try to keep this thread more on topic. We can skip this discussion until our own review is up.

Eh, too late.

Take Quen for example. Maybe it's the laziest way to play but I fail to see how it is overpowered compared to other stuff. Bombs, throwing daggers, Igni, Yrden, shitloads of HP and DR from warrior skills. If anything is to blame it's the fact that you can play the game without spending any skillpoints at all, so if you actually spend points on anything you're getting more and more overpowered the farther you progress.

Is that last bit a quote? I feel I've read it somewhere.

Yes, the game is unbalanced on multiple points, and I do in fact list bombs, throwing daggers, Yrden and the Igni and heliotrope sign for mages as unbalanced. Quen is simply the most obvious and - one upgraded - easily the biggest of its many imbalances.