Grauken
Arcane
The more TB blobbers you play, the more you realize just how well designed the first Wizardry was, mechanics-wise (even if it cribbed lots of ideas from Oubliette), balance-wise and all the dungeons.
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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread
- Thread starter Major_Blackhart
- Start date
Watser
Arcane
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Messages
- 1,865,075
Wizardry V - floor 7 is kicking my ass. Half the monsters can either cast ladalto/madalto or have a very powerful breath attack while the other half has instakill abilities. On the other hand floor 6 is too easy so I am making very slow progress right now. Also extremely infuriating that I can't just MALOR to floor 7 but have to walk from 6 to 7 every fucking time.
Grauken
Arcane
Did you beat W4 or gave up and jumped to 5?
Watser
Arcane
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Messages
- 1,865,075
Wiz IV is on hold indefinitely for the time being. I am fairly sure of what I have to do in order to progress, but decided to play Wiz V as I got burned out on it. I'll return to it eventually, but for the time being I am having more fun with Wiz V and replaying Deus Ex.
newtmonkey
Arcane
I've come to that realization!
Looking back at my maps, I'm struck by how interesting they look. They aren't just meaningless mazes, but have interesting layouts.
Biggest surprise so far: how level 3 changes COMPLETELY when you have magical light. It's like exploring a whole new level.
Second biggest surprise, coming back from level 3 barely alive, cruising level 1 toward the ladder to town, and encountering two groups of 6 creeping coins. I chuckled and just held down enter, because, I mean, they just do 1 dmg. And then the next round, with everyone 10 HPs weaker, realized how dangerous a situation I was in! You really cannot let your guard down, even when you are in a level of the dungeon that is way below your power level.
Grauken
Arcane
The render versions of the monsters of the PlayStation version of W7 are hilarious, I can't stop watching at how bad they are, almost prosper-like
http://www.pekori.jp/~emonoya/monster/7/ps7m_p.html
http://www.pekori.jp/~emonoya/monster/7/ps7m_p.html
Iznaliu
Arbiter
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2016
- Messages
- 3,686
They don't look too bad; sure, they're kind of shitty, but I've seen much worse.
newtmonkey
Arcane
The PSX W7 pre-rendered sprites are indeed pretty bad, but look deceptively okay by themselves. For the full picture of how bad this game looks, you need to see the whole picture, the shitty pre-renders over the dungeon wall textures that were designed by blind men, topped with a UI that is just floating heads pasted on the screen:
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In other news, I have been playing Wizardry I on and off the past few weeks. I explored level 3 completely, and began exploring level 4. Brutal! Full of enemies that decapitate, poison, and paralyze! I am really regretting this bishop now... at this point you really need access to the level 2 mage spells (group attack), but my bishop is still stuck at the level 1 spells even at character level 7 or 8 or so. Really considering changing him to a pure mage. Can anyone vouch for the usefulness of a bishop later on?
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In other news, I have been playing Wizardry I on and off the past few weeks. I explored level 3 completely, and began exploring level 4. Brutal! Full of enemies that decapitate, poison, and paralyze! I am really regretting this bishop now... at this point you really need access to the level 2 mage spells (group attack), but my bishop is still stuck at the level 1 spells even at character level 7 or 8 or so. Really considering changing him to a pure mage. Can anyone vouch for the usefulness of a bishop later on?
The only usefulness for a Bishop in Wiz 1 is to sit in the guild and ID items the party brings to him. You are better of with pure Wizards and Priests.
I think it was Wiz 5 that changed it so that a Bishop neede to be higher level to ID all but basic magic items.
I think it was Wiz 5 that changed it so that a Bishop neede to be higher level to ID all but basic magic items.
newtmonkey
Arcane
If I plan on going through to Wiz 3 is it then worth keeping the Bishop? Or would you still suggest dropping him for a wiz or priest?
newtmonkey
Arcane
Thanks! I ended up dropping him (but kept him in the tavern getting drunk to ID items for free).
I was sort of dreading making a new mage, thinking how long it took me to get my party to level 7 or whatever. So I put the game off for a bit and waited until I had some boring work to do, where I could swap back and forth between work and leveling up.
Surprisingly, my very first roll for my new mage had extra bonus points! Lucky!
After that, the leveling went surprisingly fast. In between tasks I'd switch over, fight for a round, and switch back. I would say it took maybe 30 mins max to get him the new mage up to speed. Not bad at all! (Of course it was against Murphy's Ghosts).
Tonight I decided to resume my game, so I headed to level 4. I knew what was coming up, but didn't know where, exactly the "boss" was, so I just took the elevator and started mapping... and 30 seconds later there I was fighting the boss encounter haha. I figured I'd fail miserably... but surprisingly enough, I totally wasted those guys (my new mage was the only casualty, cuz he was hit by BADI). For the first time yet in the game I completely let loose with all my spellcasters, and it was glorious. I could not believe the amount of power I had between these two mages lol.
One thing that is a bit worrying: my priest has been pretty much losing IQ every single level, and now she has dropped to 0. Hope that is not gonna screw things up later on...
------
This is neither here nor there, but is related to the topic in general.
Anyone who understands Japanese or who is studying it, may find this channel interesting
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzAWas3onqAT4GTCBBc99w
This guy has complete playthroughs of TONS of Japanese versions of Wizardry games (and other games, such as Megami Tensei). In addition to the JPN only Wizardry games, he even has a full run through the Apple II version of Wiz 1, full runs through the PC98 version of Wiz 1-5, full runs through Wiz 6-8 (JPN translation), and a mage-only run through Famicom Wiz 1. He even goes through Wiz NEMESIS!
[edit] I am watching his all-mage run of Wiz 1 [Famicom] now, and it is very interesting. He is playing it "straight" so far (i.e. no resets), and his strategy so far is to basically focus on building up 2 mages by sticking them in the back and sacrificing all the others (when a mage dies he just goes back and makes a new one). This way, his two mages continue to build experience. I assume once he gets them up to a certain level, he'll just repeat the process until he has a strong group of mages. Almost makes me want to try it...
I was sort of dreading making a new mage, thinking how long it took me to get my party to level 7 or whatever. So I put the game off for a bit and waited until I had some boring work to do, where I could swap back and forth between work and leveling up.
Surprisingly, my very first roll for my new mage had extra bonus points! Lucky!
After that, the leveling went surprisingly fast. In between tasks I'd switch over, fight for a round, and switch back. I would say it took maybe 30 mins max to get him the new mage up to speed. Not bad at all! (Of course it was against Murphy's Ghosts).
Tonight I decided to resume my game, so I headed to level 4. I knew what was coming up, but didn't know where, exactly the "boss" was, so I just took the elevator and started mapping... and 30 seconds later there I was fighting the boss encounter haha. I figured I'd fail miserably... but surprisingly enough, I totally wasted those guys (my new mage was the only casualty, cuz he was hit by BADI). For the first time yet in the game I completely let loose with all my spellcasters, and it was glorious. I could not believe the amount of power I had between these two mages lol.
One thing that is a bit worrying: my priest has been pretty much losing IQ every single level, and now she has dropped to 0. Hope that is not gonna screw things up later on...
------
This is neither here nor there, but is related to the topic in general.
Anyone who understands Japanese or who is studying it, may find this channel interesting
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzAWas3onqAT4GTCBBc99w
This guy has complete playthroughs of TONS of Japanese versions of Wizardry games (and other games, such as Megami Tensei). In addition to the JPN only Wizardry games, he even has a full run through the Apple II version of Wiz 1, full runs through the PC98 version of Wiz 1-5, full runs through Wiz 6-8 (JPN translation), and a mage-only run through Famicom Wiz 1. He even goes through Wiz NEMESIS!
[edit] I am watching his all-mage run of Wiz 1 [Famicom] now, and it is very interesting. He is playing it "straight" so far (i.e. no resets), and his strategy so far is to basically focus on building up 2 mages by sticking them in the back and sacrificing all the others (when a mage dies he just goes back and makes a new one). This way, his two mages continue to build experience. I assume once he gets them up to a certain level, he'll just repeat the process until he has a strong group of mages. Almost makes me want to try it...
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I had a similar thing happened to me when my Fighter's Piety went from 0 to 31. Obviously an integer overflow bug, which again led me to believe that decreasing stats is not an undocumented design feature after all, but a bug. I was a bit surprised that my character didn't die.
newtmonkey
Arcane
When her IQ got to 1 I was seriously wondering what would happen next level. When she dropped to 0 but nothing happened, I got worried haha. I exited the game, added my usual party, and everything was fine. I think you are right, it's some kind of bug.
Next is to see what happens if that stat goes negative! I wonder if it will increase to 31 like in your case. I'll keep a backup of the save disk at this point just in case.
Next is to see what happens if that stat goes negative! I wonder if it will increase to 31 like in your case. I'll keep a backup of the save disk at this point just in case.
It doesn't. There's no number 32 in the 8 bit code used (yeah I know, probably not technically correct), only 0-31. So -1 becomes 31 and 32 becomes 0.
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newtmonkey
Arcane
(I edited my post at the same time you were replying, once the gin wore off and I realized what you meant in your post)
Well, that's good then! I shouldn't have to worry.
Well, that's good then! I shouldn't have to worry.
btw, newtmonkey , i recommend checking out the snes or ps1 remakes of the first 5 wiz scenarios, although if you don't plan on using emulation I think it'll be almost impossible on ever scoring a legit snes cartridge, and the ps1 discs sell for a lot so I would understand why you'd stick to the DOS versions which are officially abandonware.
(i'm assuming that's the reason why you don't emulate).
if the reason is due to purity or whatever i have video comparisons on my youtube page (specifically comparing wiz 3's first fixed encounter between snes, ps1 and japanese PC-98 version which is equivalent to the DOS version but in higher resolution); point being that playing the remakes is in no way a detraction from the wizardry experience and, in my opinion after playing almost all versions of the first 6 scenarios...
...the experience is only improved with the remakes due to having a soundtrack and much better graphics.
i recommend avoiding the NES remakes though because they cut or changed content due to hardware limitations, but on the ps1 front at least the remakes are 1:1 recreations, and the ps1 versions are also my recommended versions for the scenarios if wanting to play one of the remakes but while keeping the experience identical in content.
in any case it's awesome whenever anyone discovers the elegance and genius design of true wizardry titles. wizardry 1 came out 30+ years ago and to this day i don't think there is any CRPG that features better systems design than it.
EDIT: also the snes versions in particular make for excellent games to play on tablets or smartphones. the controls are so simple that there is never any annoyance even when using a touch-screen, and the most surprising thing i found is that Wizardry's design makes it an almost perfect portable experience.
recently i had was the snes cartridge on my Samsung tablet (the snes cartridge remakes scenarios 1-3) and i played through all 3 scenarios on the tablet (for probably the final time ever as i now know these scenarios like the back of my hand) and marveled at how seamlessly enjoyable it was to play them on a portable device while sitting at a table with paper in front of me.
obviously playing anything via touch-screen is horrible but i was very surprised at how well Wizardry holds up not only as games, but as portable games, providing a better user experience on a portable device than newer games designed specifically for them.
the snes scenario "Wizardry Gaiden 4: Throb of the Demon's Heart" is also another great game. All of the japanese wizardry titles are great as they are all true to the design of the first 6 western scenarios, and in fact I consider Wizardry Empire 2: Legacy of the Princess (translated into english for windows PC by codexers) to be the absolute best Wizardry scenario that was ever made, easily surpassing the mighty Wiz 5, with arguably the best dungeon design in any wizardry scenario.
(i'm assuming that's the reason why you don't emulate).
if the reason is due to purity or whatever i have video comparisons on my youtube page (specifically comparing wiz 3's first fixed encounter between snes, ps1 and japanese PC-98 version which is equivalent to the DOS version but in higher resolution); point being that playing the remakes is in no way a detraction from the wizardry experience and, in my opinion after playing almost all versions of the first 6 scenarios...
...the experience is only improved with the remakes due to having a soundtrack and much better graphics.
i recommend avoiding the NES remakes though because they cut or changed content due to hardware limitations, but on the ps1 front at least the remakes are 1:1 recreations, and the ps1 versions are also my recommended versions for the scenarios if wanting to play one of the remakes but while keeping the experience identical in content.
in any case it's awesome whenever anyone discovers the elegance and genius design of true wizardry titles. wizardry 1 came out 30+ years ago and to this day i don't think there is any CRPG that features better systems design than it.
EDIT: also the snes versions in particular make for excellent games to play on tablets or smartphones. the controls are so simple that there is never any annoyance even when using a touch-screen, and the most surprising thing i found is that Wizardry's design makes it an almost perfect portable experience.
recently i had was the snes cartridge on my Samsung tablet (the snes cartridge remakes scenarios 1-3) and i played through all 3 scenarios on the tablet (for probably the final time ever as i now know these scenarios like the back of my hand) and marveled at how seamlessly enjoyable it was to play them on a portable device while sitting at a table with paper in front of me.
obviously playing anything via touch-screen is horrible but i was very surprised at how well Wizardry holds up not only as games, but as portable games, providing a better user experience on a portable device than newer games designed specifically for them.
the snes scenario "Wizardry Gaiden 4: Throb of the Demon's Heart" is also another great game. All of the japanese wizardry titles are great as they are all true to the design of the first 6 western scenarios, and in fact I consider Wizardry Empire 2: Legacy of the Princess (translated into english for windows PC by codexers) to be the absolute best Wizardry scenario that was ever made, easily surpassing the mighty Wiz 5, with arguably the best dungeon design in any wizardry scenario.
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newtmonkey
Arcane
Thanks for the info aweigh !
I did play the NES version of Wiz 1 when I a was a kid, but I was dumb and didn't appreciate it at all. I didn't map anything, didn't put any thought into my party, didn't use any tactics, just played it dumb like a dumb kid haha. For that reason, I thought for the longest time that Wiz was a grind that was simply not worth playing.
A while back I got the PSX remakes on disc (was able to get them quite cheap) to give the series another try, because I had played through a bunch of old RPGs (FF 1-3, 4, 6, Dragon Quest 1-2, Mother, Ultima 1, (part of) Might & Magic 1) and realized that a lot of them are AMAZING. I seriously could not believe how well those games aged, and how well balanced/designed they are (with the exception of DW1). I mean, I have not even spent that much time playing Wiz 1, and I think I could probably (broadly) map the first dungeon level from memory. It's that memorable. The fact that they accomplished this with white lines on a black background is simply amazing. Actually, the total lack of wall/floor graphics for some reason really makes the layouts stand out in my mind. It's like you said in your post about the dungeon graphics, you have to fill in the gaps yourself, and I think it really does force you to pay attention.
So I figured my childhood memories of Wiz were probably also stupid and wrong. I cannot say for sure, but it is certainly possible that one of your many excellent posts on the series convinced me to finally give the games another shot.
Once I started up Wiz 1 on the PSX and put a little time into it, really paying attention and mapping the levels, I realized how great the dungeon design is. I mean, these are not just mazes like a lot of dungeons in these kinds of games. You start you realize certain things just based on the shape of the area you are mapping (biggest example in my mind... if you step on a 4-way intersection, step off and cast DUMAPIC cuz you probably just hit a spinner; I mean, compare this to the first area you encounter spinners in SoSC; not only do you have an automap, but the spinners are all on three way intersections... there might as well not even be spinners there, they serve no purpose).
After that, it just got it into me to play the PC version instead, so I got my hands on the Wiz Archives.
I agree with you 100% that the PSX remake, when properly configured, is probably the ultimate version of these games (though I have a soft spot for the music in the NES version of 1). However, I really want to play through these on PC for some reason. I will play the PSX remakes later on though.
Definitely will be trying Gaiden 4 on your recommendation, and the PS2 Gaiden game once I track a copy down in the wild.
I did play the NES version of Wiz 1 when I a was a kid, but I was dumb and didn't appreciate it at all. I didn't map anything, didn't put any thought into my party, didn't use any tactics, just played it dumb like a dumb kid haha. For that reason, I thought for the longest time that Wiz was a grind that was simply not worth playing.
A while back I got the PSX remakes on disc (was able to get them quite cheap) to give the series another try, because I had played through a bunch of old RPGs (FF 1-3, 4, 6, Dragon Quest 1-2, Mother, Ultima 1, (part of) Might & Magic 1) and realized that a lot of them are AMAZING. I seriously could not believe how well those games aged, and how well balanced/designed they are (with the exception of DW1). I mean, I have not even spent that much time playing Wiz 1, and I think I could probably (broadly) map the first dungeon level from memory. It's that memorable. The fact that they accomplished this with white lines on a black background is simply amazing. Actually, the total lack of wall/floor graphics for some reason really makes the layouts stand out in my mind. It's like you said in your post about the dungeon graphics, you have to fill in the gaps yourself, and I think it really does force you to pay attention.
So I figured my childhood memories of Wiz were probably also stupid and wrong. I cannot say for sure, but it is certainly possible that one of your many excellent posts on the series convinced me to finally give the games another shot.
Once I started up Wiz 1 on the PSX and put a little time into it, really paying attention and mapping the levels, I realized how great the dungeon design is. I mean, these are not just mazes like a lot of dungeons in these kinds of games. You start you realize certain things just based on the shape of the area you are mapping (biggest example in my mind... if you step on a 4-way intersection, step off and cast DUMAPIC cuz you probably just hit a spinner; I mean, compare this to the first area you encounter spinners in SoSC; not only do you have an automap, but the spinners are all on three way intersections... there might as well not even be spinners there, they serve no purpose).
After that, it just got it into me to play the PC version instead, so I got my hands on the Wiz Archives.
I agree with you 100% that the PSX remake, when properly configured, is probably the ultimate version of these games (though I have a soft spot for the music in the NES version of 1). However, I really want to play through these on PC for some reason. I will play the PSX remakes later on though.
Definitely will be trying Gaiden 4 on your recommendation, and the PS2 Gaiden game once I track a copy down in the wild.
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also modern crawlers' automaps show you where you are graphically along with what direction you're pointing at.
it's not wrong really and some modern crawlers maps get so insane (such as some elminage: gothic maps) or alternatively, the games themselves are so long (again, like elminage: gothic) that there is no sane person on earth who is going to enjoy mapping out by hand all motherfucking dungeons.
Starfish (the devs of the elminage series and the Wizardry Empire series) did it perfectly by making the game auto-map in a modern way your exploration of the dungeon but access to the auto-map is limited by the amount of spell-castings your party has and additionally by how many "magic maps" you buy at the shoppe.
in wizardry empire series and in elminage: gothic the magic map items are very cheap and affordable but for at least the first third of the games (i.e. basically for the first big dungeon) you're gonna have to weigh your options and decide between maps, supplies or weapons.
in my opinion having access to a fully featured auto-map but limited by your access to an item/spell if the best compromise between having the player draw a map or using the game's auto-map.
there are some dungeons in wizardry empire 2: legacy of the princess that never in a million years would i want to map by hand, and to once again reiterate my original point as to why it is simply: modern Wizardry scenarios (i.e. japanese ones) are simply much longer and bigger in dungeon-content than the original scenarios were, making the feat of mapping them by hand something for extreme autists.
let me quote myself here from something I just posted over in the Stranger of Sword City thread:
it's not wrong really and some modern crawlers maps get so insane (such as some elminage: gothic maps) or alternatively, the games themselves are so long (again, like elminage: gothic) that there is no sane person on earth who is going to enjoy mapping out by hand all motherfucking dungeons.
Starfish (the devs of the elminage series and the Wizardry Empire series) did it perfectly by making the game auto-map in a modern way your exploration of the dungeon but access to the auto-map is limited by the amount of spell-castings your party has and additionally by how many "magic maps" you buy at the shoppe.
in wizardry empire series and in elminage: gothic the magic map items are very cheap and affordable but for at least the first third of the games (i.e. basically for the first big dungeon) you're gonna have to weigh your options and decide between maps, supplies or weapons.
in my opinion having access to a fully featured auto-map but limited by your access to an item/spell if the best compromise between having the player draw a map or using the game's auto-map.
there are some dungeons in wizardry empire 2: legacy of the princess that never in a million years would i want to map by hand, and to once again reiterate my original point as to why it is simply: modern Wizardry scenarios (i.e. japanese ones) are simply much longer and bigger in dungeon-content than the original scenarios were, making the feat of mapping them by hand something for extreme autists.
let me quote myself here from something I just posted over in the Stranger of Sword City thread:
newtmonkey
Arcane
OKAY
It took me like a whole week, but I read this entire thread from start to finish. Was surprising to see my first post here, and also to see aweigh flipping out at one point haha
One thing that really struck me was octavius commenting as he played through the early games (and his "old" reaction when I mentioned the CGA setting on DOSBOX that he had mentioned years (?) ago haha). Now that I have made some progress in Wiz 1, his posts are even more interesting. I also agree with his befuddlement on the CRPGaddict having such a rough time early on in Wiz 1. (BTW even in Wiz 3 crpgaddict was bumping against every wall to find secrets... did the system change, or did he still not know about casting light spell?) Granted, I am not playing 100% pure, but even with shitty stats (I basically did not reroll during character gen) I had no problem defeating the "boss" encounter on lvl 4, without grinding at all.
*Not pure means that I backup my save disk at the end of every session, which I probably would have done back in the day...)
Even so, I have never had to resort to restoring my backed up disk (the "restore" option or whatever in utilities is available after all [even though I can count the number of times I have used this on one hand]).
Another point that really made more sense now is when aweigh mentioned how mapping by hand commits the layout to memory. I agree with that 100%. Even though Wiz is a short game and I have not spent that much time with it, I could probably reproduce (generally) the 1st level by memory, plus major parts of the 2nd level. The 3rd level too (but not where all the pits and spinners are). I have trouble remembering where I left my shoes every day, how old I am, or when I am out drinking where or who I am, but I can remember these wireframe dungeons like I actually walked through them the other day. Amazing.
[edit] We were posting at the same time.
I found your posts on auto mapping earlier in this topic very interesting. I think a huge part of the early dungeon games (notably Wiz, M&M, the early gold box games) is mapping. People hate mapping, but it is extremely manageable in these games, where the dimensions of each dungeon/floor are fixed. I love in Wiz 1 how the mapping is basically a minigame between you and the designer. You know the dimensions, so when you pass square 16 and keep going, you know something is up. Likewise, when you first encounter a spinner on a 4-way intersection and screw your map up, and then cast dumapic and after a lot of exploring figuring out where you are, you learn to never trust 4-way intersections again. That makes mapping a part of the game. Since you have a resource you can expend to give you the answer (dumapic), it becomes just yet another aspect of the resource game.
I saw people in this topic saying, how is mapping anything but busywork? etc. It's because the games back then were designed knowing that you would sit there and visit every square, mapping as you went. You would look at your maps and look for weird things, like massive unexplored areas. Is that any different from a game including an automap? Well, in most cases, no, but in cases where Wiz completely screws up your map BY DESIGN because mapping is an intrinsic part of the experience, yes.
(Having said that, I don't particularly appreciate when a teleport or spinner ruins my hand drawn map and I need to erase a bunch of shit to recover).
But you also mentioned how, once the games/layouts got too large/complicated, it makes no sense to require manual mapping (especially with games that are not tile based). I get that. I don't think I would want to manually map Anvil of Dawn, for instance. It's not particularly complicated, but some of the levels are just massive, and showing where moving boulders are is also important, so it would be annoying to map.
I think requiring manual mapping as an intrinsic part of playing the game basically requires
1) Step based movement
2) Fixed floor dimensions
3) Something interesting that makes mapping a puzzle, but not something that makes it completely frustrating
Like, M&M1 is perfect for mapping, as even the overworld consists of a bunch of fixed size maps that connect together.
I almost included "turn-based combat" as a condition above, but I dunno. Dungeon Master is very mappable, and I would hate to exclude that.
It took me like a whole week, but I read this entire thread from start to finish. Was surprising to see my first post here, and also to see aweigh flipping out at one point haha
One thing that really struck me was octavius commenting as he played through the early games (and his "old" reaction when I mentioned the CGA setting on DOSBOX that he had mentioned years (?) ago haha). Now that I have made some progress in Wiz 1, his posts are even more interesting. I also agree with his befuddlement on the CRPGaddict having such a rough time early on in Wiz 1. (BTW even in Wiz 3 crpgaddict was bumping against every wall to find secrets... did the system change, or did he still not know about casting light spell?) Granted, I am not playing 100% pure, but even with shitty stats (I basically did not reroll during character gen) I had no problem defeating the "boss" encounter on lvl 4, without grinding at all.
*Not pure means that I backup my save disk at the end of every session, which I probably would have done back in the day...)
Even so, I have never had to resort to restoring my backed up disk (the "restore" option or whatever in utilities is available after all [even though I can count the number of times I have used this on one hand]).
Another point that really made more sense now is when aweigh mentioned how mapping by hand commits the layout to memory. I agree with that 100%. Even though Wiz is a short game and I have not spent that much time with it, I could probably reproduce (generally) the 1st level by memory, plus major parts of the 2nd level. The 3rd level too (but not where all the pits and spinners are). I have trouble remembering where I left my shoes every day, how old I am, or when I am out drinking where or who I am, but I can remember these wireframe dungeons like I actually walked through them the other day. Amazing.
[edit] We were posting at the same time.
I found your posts on auto mapping earlier in this topic very interesting. I think a huge part of the early dungeon games (notably Wiz, M&M, the early gold box games) is mapping. People hate mapping, but it is extremely manageable in these games, where the dimensions of each dungeon/floor are fixed. I love in Wiz 1 how the mapping is basically a minigame between you and the designer. You know the dimensions, so when you pass square 16 and keep going, you know something is up. Likewise, when you first encounter a spinner on a 4-way intersection and screw your map up, and then cast dumapic and after a lot of exploring figuring out where you are, you learn to never trust 4-way intersections again. That makes mapping a part of the game. Since you have a resource you can expend to give you the answer (dumapic), it becomes just yet another aspect of the resource game.
I saw people in this topic saying, how is mapping anything but busywork? etc. It's because the games back then were designed knowing that you would sit there and visit every square, mapping as you went. You would look at your maps and look for weird things, like massive unexplored areas. Is that any different from a game including an automap? Well, in most cases, no, but in cases where Wiz completely screws up your map BY DESIGN because mapping is an intrinsic part of the experience, yes.
(Having said that, I don't particularly appreciate when a teleport or spinner ruins my hand drawn map and I need to erase a bunch of shit to recover).
But you also mentioned how, once the games/layouts got too large/complicated, it makes no sense to require manual mapping (especially with games that are not tile based). I get that. I don't think I would want to manually map Anvil of Dawn, for instance. It's not particularly complicated, but some of the levels are just massive, and showing where moving boulders are is also important, so it would be annoying to map.
I think requiring manual mapping as an intrinsic part of playing the game basically requires
1) Step based movement
2) Fixed floor dimensions
3) Something interesting that makes mapping a puzzle, but not something that makes it completely frustrating
Like, M&M1 is perfect for mapping, as even the overworld consists of a bunch of fixed size maps that connect together.
I almost included "turn-based combat" as a condition above, but I dunno. Dungeon Master is very mappable, and I would hate to exclude that.
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EDIT: yes, mapping by hand is the absolute best way to get the layout of any dungeon into your bones. I could literally navigate the first dungeon floors of any of the first 5 Wizardry scenarios, along with the first two dungeons of Wiz Empire 2 or Elminage: Gothic (which I drew by hand before swimming in magic maps) with my eyes fucking closed.
just tell me where I would start, and facing what direction, and I could navigate the 1st floor of Wiz 3 blindfolded merely counting my steps.
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alternatively the 3DS provides a much better mapping experience which currently is only present in their Etrian Odyssey games where you can use the 3DS' second screen and the Stylus Pen to draw your own maps on the device's second screen.
it is extreemly fucking enjoyable to do so, and while it will never have the charm of having done it on actual paper with all of the personality one can imbue that process with, it still manages to evoke the spirit of the experience while functioning as a half-way auto-map. they made sure to provide a huge suite of icons which you can place anywhere while making your touch-screen map and it's hella fun.,
unfortunately the EO series, while most definitely the closest thing you'll find to Wizardry in a hand-held device (discounting emulation obviously) aren't exactly... l33t enough. they're simple in design (simpler than Wizardry, which is not a compliment to EO) and while they are hard enough in difficulty the somewhat bare-bones mechanics are too stripped down to be enjoyable for very long to hard-core 'crawler fans.
some will disagree as the series has a lot of fans, and hell I include myself in that category, but i think even the staunchest EO supporter will agree that any priase muse come with the caveat of the games being a scaled-down hand-held experience.
in any case that sums up my thoughts on modern auto-mapping's pros and cons, with the most enjoyable possible experience being for the game to provide direct and innate access to a 2nd screen that is touch-capable and replicate the process of drawing them by hand except via stylus pen and modern touch-screen conveniences such as drag-and-pull and copy-paste and automatic filling in of hallways.
obviously, as i said, only the 3DS etrian odyssey games currently provide access to this experience so... yeah.
in 2nd place I place Starfish's simple approach of providing "magic map" items to bolster access to the auto map outside of Dumapic but making the items themselves (at least for a while) difficult to hoarde.
just tell me where I would start, and facing what direction, and I could navigate the 1st floor of Wiz 3 blindfolded merely counting my steps.
----
alternatively the 3DS provides a much better mapping experience which currently is only present in their Etrian Odyssey games where you can use the 3DS' second screen and the Stylus Pen to draw your own maps on the device's second screen.
it is extreemly fucking enjoyable to do so, and while it will never have the charm of having done it on actual paper with all of the personality one can imbue that process with, it still manages to evoke the spirit of the experience while functioning as a half-way auto-map. they made sure to provide a huge suite of icons which you can place anywhere while making your touch-screen map and it's hella fun.,
unfortunately the EO series, while most definitely the closest thing you'll find to Wizardry in a hand-held device (discounting emulation obviously) aren't exactly... l33t enough. they're simple in design (simpler than Wizardry, which is not a compliment to EO) and while they are hard enough in difficulty the somewhat bare-bones mechanics are too stripped down to be enjoyable for very long to hard-core 'crawler fans.
some will disagree as the series has a lot of fans, and hell I include myself in that category, but i think even the staunchest EO supporter will agree that any priase muse come with the caveat of the games being a scaled-down hand-held experience.
in any case that sums up my thoughts on modern auto-mapping's pros and cons, with the most enjoyable possible experience being for the game to provide direct and innate access to a 2nd screen that is touch-capable and replicate the process of drawing them by hand except via stylus pen and modern touch-screen conveniences such as drag-and-pull and copy-paste and automatic filling in of hallways.
obviously, as i said, only the 3DS etrian odyssey games currently provide access to this experience so... yeah.
in 2nd place I place Starfish's simple approach of providing "magic map" items to bolster access to the auto map outside of Dumapic but making the items themselves (at least for a while) difficult to hoarde.
and yeah, as regards to Wizardry "difficulty" it is much more psychological actual difficulty. and dude I absolutely recommend making a backup of some sort of your party at least one, perhaps when you "finally" get your party composition you want to end the game with.
wizardry (any wizardry, western or japanese) fucking loooooooves to troll you by having a big spike in enemy strength when reaching the last floors of a dungeon, and 1st-round party wipes are not... uncommon.
don't fret over losing "progress", as the only thing that truly matters are the character levels and their gear and spells. once you have a dungeon already mapped out (through whatever means chosen) you cna breeze through dungeon floors in a matter of minutes.
someone with previous knowledge of Wiz 1, and with all the floors in front of him mapped out on paper, can literally fly through the entire game in an afternoon. your progress is more marked by your party state than where you physcally can reach.
EDIT: OH, I forgot about Wiz Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles approach. What they did is that eveyr dungeon floor has a hidden switch that is completely optional but if found gives you unlimited access to the full map of the place.
I'd forgotten about that neat aspect of PotB and it is indeed a very simple solution/compromise with having the player map out (if they want) before being able (if they ever do, as the switch is hidden extremely deviously in the final dungeons) to discover the map-switch.
it also means that finding the map-switch becomes a part of the dungeon exploring experience and serves basically as a checkpoint of sorts for each dungeon floor. It was quite an neat little approach to the whole auto-mapping conversation and I haven't seen it replicated in any other Wiz scenario ever since.
wizardry (any wizardry, western or japanese) fucking loooooooves to troll you by having a big spike in enemy strength when reaching the last floors of a dungeon, and 1st-round party wipes are not... uncommon.
don't fret over losing "progress", as the only thing that truly matters are the character levels and their gear and spells. once you have a dungeon already mapped out (through whatever means chosen) you cna breeze through dungeon floors in a matter of minutes.
someone with previous knowledge of Wiz 1, and with all the floors in front of him mapped out on paper, can literally fly through the entire game in an afternoon. your progress is more marked by your party state than where you physcally can reach.
EDIT: OH, I forgot about Wiz Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles approach. What they did is that eveyr dungeon floor has a hidden switch that is completely optional but if found gives you unlimited access to the full map of the place.
I'd forgotten about that neat aspect of PotB and it is indeed a very simple solution/compromise with having the player map out (if they want) before being able (if they ever do, as the switch is hidden extremely deviously in the final dungeons) to discover the map-switch.
it also means that finding the map-switch becomes a part of the dungeon exploring experience and serves basically as a checkpoint of sorts for each dungeon floor. It was quite an neat little approach to the whole auto-mapping conversation and I haven't seen it replicated in any other Wiz scenario ever since.
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