Decline Thiaf Pre-Release Thread

[Telengard]

That's the writing on the wall, right there. This is turning into another Aliens: Colonial Marines fiasco, not 3 months later, and the game is still over a year away from release.

Any suit with half a brain will see this and pull the plug now. Unfortunately suits with brains are in incredlibly short supply these days.

Why would they do that? That would be an entirely stupid thing to do after blowing money into a project for 5 years. They could/should minimize the PR costs and maybe think about not putting any more of their money into it (what was that with the German investment firm unrelated to Squeenix?), as well as setting an Ultimatum like SEGA did with Aliens: Colonial Marines for when the game has to be out. But entirely pulling the plug and saying "it's over" at this point in time would be retarded. Even if it only sells like a million copies on Pre-Order hype alone it would still go ways on making some of that money back.

Remember that for all the games (Tomb Raider, Sleeping Dogs, Hitman) the point was that they made lower than expected sales on them and not that they couldn't recoup the initial investment.

Sleeping Dogs for instance was done in slightly over a year. Squeenix had picked it up August 2 2011 and it released August 13 2012.

Games a lot further along than this get cancelled/assets sold off all the time.

Every year a game needs in the oven is additional # of sales that must be made just to recoup costs - in order to pay for the salaries, equipment, power, etc etc. Then there's even more additional costs later, there's boxart, manufacturing, marketing, listing fees, manual design and printing, etc etc etc. If management looks at the state of the game now and deems the project a money-sink that will drain even more than it can ever hope to return, or even if management decides that its company's time and assets are simply better spent elsewhere on something with a better chance of earning money, flush goes the IP.

Why spend additional years, effort, and money on a project that might maybe if you're lucky make some of its losses back, when that same time, effort, and money can be spend making something that might make all of its investment back, make some tasty profit for your bank account, and then also pay off some of the bills of the earlier stinker?

 

[Dexter]

Games a lot further along than this get cancelled/assets sold off all the time.

Every year a game needs in the oven is additional # of sales that must be made just to recoup costs - in order to pay for the salaries, equipment, power, etc etc. Then there's even more additional costs later, there's boxart, manufacturing, marketing, listing fees, manual design and printing, etc etc etc. If management looks at the state of the game now and deems the project a money-sink that will drain even more than it can ever hope to return, or even if management decides that its company's time and assets are simply better spent elsewhere on something with a better chance of earning money, flush goes the IP.

Why spend additional years, effort, and money on a project that might maybe if you're lucky make some of its losses back, when that same time, effort, and money can be spend making something that might make all of its investment back, make some tasty profit for your bank account, and then also pay off some of the bills of the earlier stinker?

Because they've already put ~5+ years of budget into it, it is likely almost done and even if it sells 1-2 million copies it would likely still offset the cost invoked so far? Even more, they already started the Marketing campaign with CG Trailers, "Game Demo" Trailers and front covers on Game Informer? Even if it comes out the way Aliens: Colonial Marines was (even though I don't entirely think it will) and just relies on casual people hearing about it from Advertisements or "Oh, I remember Thief", it would likely still be worth another 8-12 months in the oven. They could've cancelled it 2-3 years ago, not after it's nearly finished and they've expended money on Marketing. That's utterly retarded.

 

[tuluse]

Releasing a shitty game devalues the brand. Look at Perfect Dark and I bet Microsoft wishes they never released Zero

 

[MetalCraze]

Why spend additional years, effort, and money on a project that might maybe if you're lucky make some of its losses back, when that same time, effort, and money can be spend making something that might make all of its investment back, make some tasty profit for your bank account, and then also pay off some of the bills of the earlier stinker?

Stop using common sense please, this is not NeoGAF. We all know it's all evil publisher's fault because it doesn't give devs infinite amount of money and time.

 

[AstroZombie]

Games a lot further along than this get cancelled/assets sold off all the time.

Every year a game needs in the oven is additional # of sales that must be made just to recoup costs - in order to pay for the salaries, equipment, power, etc etc. Then there's even more additional costs later, there's boxart, manufacturing, marketing, listing fees, manual design and printing, etc etc etc. If management looks at the state of the game now and deems the project a money-sink that will drain even more than it can ever hope to return, or even if management decides that its company's time and assets are simply better spent elsewhere on something with a better chance of earning money, flush goes the IP.

Why spend additional years, effort, and money on a project that might maybe if you're lucky make some of its losses back, when that same time, effort, and money can be spend making something that might make all of its investment back, make some tasty profit for your bank account, and then also pay off some of the bills of the earlier stinker?

Because Square-Enix isn't known for making sensible decisions, see their latest fiscal report for proof.

 

[Infinitron]

Man this game could have been a sure thing if they'd just used DX:HR's engine and code and done it on the cheap, emphasizing stealth and exploration. But no, they had to make it a "thing". FFS Eidos Montreal, I thought you had potential.

 

[deuxhero]

Games a lot further along than this get cancelled/assets sold off all the time.

Every year a game needs in the oven is additional # of sales that must be made just to recoup costs - in order to pay for the salaries, equipment, power, etc etc. Then there's even more additional costs later, there's boxart, manufacturing, marketing, listing fees, manual design and printing, etc etc etc. If management looks at the state of the game now and deems the project a money-sink that will drain even more than it can ever hope to return, or even if management decides that its company's time and assets are simply better spent elsewhere on something with a better chance of earning money, flush goes the IP.

Why spend additional years, effort, and money on a project that might maybe if you're lucky make some of its losses back, when that same time, effort, and money can be spend making something that might make all of its investment back, make some tasty profit for your bank account, and then also pay off some of the bills of the earlier stinker?

Because they've already put ~5+ years of budget into it, it is likely almost done and even if it sells 1-2 million copies it would likely still offset the cost invoked so far? Even more, they already started the Marketing campaign with CG Trailers, "Game Demo" Trailers and front covers on Game Informer? Even if it comes out the way Aliens: Colonial Marines was (even though I don't entirely think it will) and just relies on casual people hearing about it from Advertisements or "Oh, I remember Thief", it would likely still be worth another 8-12 months in the oven. They could've cancelled it 2-3 years ago, not after it's nearly finished and they've expended money on Marketing. That's utterly retarded.

Remember just how expensive advertising is (40-60% of budet) and most of that is going to be done at and before release. They should just pull the plug.

 

[sea]

Games a lot further along than this get cancelled/assets sold off all the time.

Every year a game needs in the oven is additional # of sales that must be made just to recoup costs - in order to pay for the salaries, equipment, power, etc etc. Then there's even more additional costs later, there's boxart, manufacturing, marketing, listing fees, manual design and printing, etc etc etc. If management looks at the state of the game now and deems the project a money-sink that will drain even more than it can ever hope to return, or even if management decides that its company's time and assets are simply better spent elsewhere on something with a better chance of earning money, flush goes the IP.

Why spend additional years, effort, and money on a project that might maybe if you're lucky make some of its losses back, when that same time, effort, and money can be spend making something that might make all of its investment back, make some tasty profit for your bank account, and then also pay off some of the bills of the earlier stinker?

Truth. As much as we like to rail against publishers (and they are responsible for a fair number of awful and sometimes horribly exploitative decisions), the fact is that many development studios are also bloated, have poor management, lack direction, and waste a lot of time and money on pointless and unnecessary things. It's easy to sympathize with developers because they tend to put on a nice face and play the "starving artists" card, but when you then look at developers like Blizzard who waste tons of time and money on updates that never get put out, games that get shifted to 3 different studios before being canceled, spend 8 years making one single game, etc. and whose offices are an open campus where employees coast in at noon and work 5 hour days, it's easy to see how they can be huge money sinks too.

 

[DeepOcean]

I guess that acessibility became a cult word that publishers repeat to themselves, until they go to the magic land of the 10 million copies. Ok, making candles and drawers blue is going to solve all the problems... On the view of Eidos Montreal, most western people don't know that a drawer... can be open and the light of a candle can be extinghished and a book can be read. I didn't knew that Thief was an educational tool to teach children with mental paralysis: "No, no, Bobby, you don't eat the drawer, it is to open." . What is the problem of the old method of highlighting interactive entities while looking at them, developer hubris is a bitch. While Bioware is trying to appeal to the gay market, Eidos Montreal is appealing to the Down Syndrome market, those developers and their inclusive agenda...

 

[MetalCraze]

On the view of Eidos Montreal, most western people don't know that a drawer..

Until you've played Dota you know nothing about how retarded the majority of gamers is. You have no idea. And neither does Eidos. They are wrong. The majority of gamers is a lot A LOT dumber than anyone there can possibly think. This is a reason why even a dumbed down POS that XCom is didn't sell well enough on cuntsoles.

By playing a shit game I now know that there's no hope for gaming. It's not publishers or developers treating gamers as dumb. Gamers are fucking dumb.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Because they've already put ~5+ years of budget into it, it is likely almost done and even if it sells 1-2 million copies it would likely still offset the cost invoked so far? Even more, they already started the Marketing campaign with CG Trailers, "Game Demo" Trailers and front covers on Game Informer?

I suggest you re-read the article again that you yourself posted. While it never says it out loud, it is trying to tell us that Thief is a vaporware product at this point.

It suggests strongly that they have next to nothing in their hands besides the 'vertical slice' of a bloated tech demo. They have pretty much started from scratch (once again) within the past 6 months.

PR and marketing campaigns for upcoming games are all about building hype and pre-orders. THAT'S what the current batch of marketing bravado is being thrown at us is for, to convince the bigshots at Squeenix that Thief IS worth developing further to the point of release, even though everything else is probably screaming at them to kill this abomination before it eats more millions of moneys.

Even if it comes out the way Aliens: Colonial Marines was (even though I don't entirely think it will) and just relies on casual people hearing about it from Advertisements or "Oh, I remember Thief", it would likely still be worth another 8-12 months in the oven. They could've cancelled it 2-3 years ago, not after it's nearly finished and they've expended money on Marketing. That's utterly retarded.

Again, I just stated the reason above: In my opinion, the current marketing campaign is nothing more than a test campaign to try to determine what potential value is in a new Thief game developed along the lines that the 'vertical slice' (how utterly retarded a concept that term describes) demonstrates. If it would have met with a raving response, Eidos Montreal would be golden until the game saw release. We all know what the reality is. They're still trying to figure out what to do with the blood-soaked new orifice that we, the fans, gave them. We do not want this. A very sizeable and vocal part of the fanbase has expressed their opinion, and the marketing beancounters at Squeenix should be able to read the figures to reach that same conclusion: Why try to sell it if the fans clearly don't want it?

 

[tuluse]

Developers have spent so long making games as static and non-interactive as possible they need to give modern gamers hints that you can actually interact with the environment.

 

[dnf]

Man this game could have been a sure thing if they'd just used DX:HR's engine and code and done it on the cheap, emphasizing stealth and exploration. But no, they had to make it a "thing". FFS Eidos Montreal, I thought you had potential.

Could be good for development, but DX:HR engine sure is a piece of shit with bad optimization, tiny levels(compared with old Thief games) and no mod support.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

This screenshot...

Isn't that just highlighting which parts of the scenery can be interacted with? Clicking until you find something you can open / pick up doesn't require a lot of intelligence or effort either.

 

[MetalCraze]

Clicking until you find something you can open / pick up doesn't require a lot of intelligence

Neither does finding Caius Cosades

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Neither does finding Caius Cosades

Ok, but what does he have to do with this?

I meant that highlighting interactive objects doesn't seem that

inducing to me, because it's something you find just by clicking on an object and moving on to the next if it doesn't respond.

 

[Dexter]

I suggest you re-read the article again that you yourself posted. While it never says it out loud, it is trying to tell us that Thief is a vaporware product at this point.

It suggests strongly that they have next to nothing in their hands besides the 'vertical slice' of a bloated tech demo. They have pretty much started from scratch (once again) within the past 6 months.

PR and marketing campaigns for upcoming games are all about building hype and pre-orders. THAT'S what the current batch of marketing bravado is being thrown at us is for, to convince the bigshots at Squeenix that Thief IS worth developing further to the point of release, even though everything else is probably screaming at them to kill this abomination before it eats more millions of moneys.

It does no such thing. It says that there's been lots of retarded decisions and changes of leads while developing and it also says that they've wasted lots of time (6-10 months) for what is basically a "promo level" for the Press at GDC and that we are likely going to see at E3 in two months time, similar to Aliens: Colonial Marines or Bioshock Infinite.
They have been working on an actual game for about 5 years though.

Again, I just stated the reason above: In my opinion, the current marketing campaign is nothing more than a test campaign to try to determine what potential value is in a new Thief game developed along the lines that the 'vertical slice' (how utterly retarded a concept that term describes) demonstrates. If it would have met with a raving response, Eidos Montreal would be golden until the game saw release. We all know what the reality is. They're still trying to figure out what to do with the blood-soaked new orifice that we, the fans, gave them. We do not want this. A very sizeable and vocal part of the fanbase has expressed their opinion, and the marketing beancounters at Squeenix should be able to read the figures to reach that same conclusion: Why try to sell it if the fans clearly don't want it?

Think again:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/03/05/april-cover-revealed-thief.aspx
http://www.gameinformer.com/p/thief.aspx
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/05/thief-4-coming-in-2014
http://www.gamespot.com/thief/videos/thief-out-of-the-shadows-trailer-6406258/

I'm pretty sure this'll come out in 2014 or at the latest 2015, at whatever stage it'll be at will be anybody's guess, and growing this thread for another 70 pages will likely not change that either.

 

[AstroZombie]

Neither does finding Caius Cosades

Ok, but what does he have to do with this?

I meant that highlighting interactive objects doesn't seem that *gif* inducing to me, because it's something you find just by clicking on an object and moving on to the next if it doesn't respond.

I think that Focus mode makes the direction they're taking this game pretty clear, expect lots of hand holding.

 

[octavius]

cuntsoles.

 

[MetalCraze]

Neither does finding Caius Cosades

Ok, but what does he have to do with this?

I meant that highlighting interactive objects doesn't seem that *gif* inducing to me, because it's something you find just by clicking on an object and moving on to the next if it doesn't respond.

Caius Cosades is something you find just by checking names on doors and moving on to the next if he doesn't live there.

 

[Tigranes]

May..maybe if you never use the focus mode, it'll be... okay...



I really really like Thief. I'd actually have preferred DXHR to have been the butchered one. I'd wish for the IP to be sold on the cheap or something, but then I don't even know who I'd want to take over.

 

[Excommunicator]

It's a symbolic thing - or rather a psychological thing - more than anything. The devs are assuming the players need it or would benefit from it, firstly, and they're also not recognising how a player might approach the game world differently because of it and how the satisfaction of discovery might be affected.

These kinds of gamey mechanics (including things like quest markers/compasses) take people out of the mindset of approaching situations without gamey preconceptions. They are ways of establishing objectives by eliminating uncertainty and contributing to an overall system of "follow the prompts".

Or if you would prefer, think about it in the context of exploration. How does it affect the impetus to explore the world to find interactive elements? If I can see a higher ledge in the game world, do I still try to climb to the top or do I highlight the game world to prove whether or not there is interactivity up there before I even bother climbing (you can see in the shot the great distance at which it highlights interactive objects). If there is, then you know the devs have planned it. If there isn't you suddenly lose the reason to climb up, so you move on. Now there will be no problem solving in finding a way up to the ledge, irrespective of the rewards that may or may not await. You're interpreting the game world with before-the-fact knowledge essentially, which is damaging to the elements of problem solving and discovery.

A good simulation of this kind benefits greatly from the uncertainty necessary to encourage the risk or taking the chance on an exploration exercise instead of explicitly telling the character "this is the interactive part, and the rest is non-interactive. Now you know this, you don't need to bother "trying things". It isn't even important to the argument how difficult the game is without the highlight tool or how quantifiably different the game is with this mechanic versus without, it's a matter of aligning the player's learning processes and experiences away from what they essentially want with this kind of game; a game that provides a realm of possibility where the potential for discovery is defined by both what is known as well as what isn't yet known.

It's a small step on a path of devolution and most designers greatly underestimate the withering capabilities of introducing little things like this into game and how the game will be affected overall.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Well, I don't see a big difference between humping the ledge to see if an invisible wall blocks your way or checking if it's climbable with a command. The "exploration factor" would come from having a reason to do so. For all the handholding it has, Fallout 3 doesn't highlight which containers have useful stuff and which ones contain trash (it does highlight the truly empty ones, but being filled with clutter like ashtrays and rusty cans is the same as being empty). That doesn't make the dumpster diving any more interesting, it just takes you two minutes to check a room full of desks instead of thirty seconds. Busywork masquerading as gameplay.

Caius Cosades is something you find just by checking names on doors and moving on to the next if he doesn't live there.

Or you could just ask the guy at the bar and walk straight to his house, yeah. I still don't get your point. Having each person's name on the door didn't help the WHERES CAIUS people, so I don't see why highlighting each drawer that can be inspected would somehow help them.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

May..maybe if you never use the focus mode, it'll be... okay...



I really really like Thief. I'd actually have preferred DXHR to have been the butchered one. I'd wish for the IP to be sold on the cheap or something, but then I don't even know who I'd want to take over.

I'd prefer some devs would kickstart a spiritual sucessor, maybe some of the original devs, like guys in inxile and obsidian getting to make games "supposedly" similar to their original ones, or a different indy dev that would want to make a similar thief game, like larian using it's divinity franchise to make a game similar to ultima 7, though they were never involved at all with origin systems.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Man this game could have been a sure thing if they'd just used DX:HR's engine and code and done it on the cheap, emphasizing stealth and exploration. But no, they had to make it a "thing". FFS Eidos Montreal, I thought you had potential.

Could be good for development, but DX:HR engine sure is a piece of shit with bad optimization, tiny levels(compared with old Thief games) and no mod support.

DX:HR streams shit on the fly, while it needs to be located, decompressed, loaded and rendered. While it is useful for static geometry, shitload of objects may drastically slow down the whole thing.
At least it doesn't show you half-loaded objects like most of UE3 games do.
But yeah, the engine designed to render tiny tombs and Lara's boobs will hardly do any good on larger maps.