Thieves Guilds: Morrowind did it right

[Linden]

Everyone agrees that Thieves Guilds are stupid and nonsensical. That being said, some games do Thieves Guilds better than others. And by some games I mean one game. And by one game I mean Morrowind.

The Thieves Guild in Skyrim consisted of people dressed in leather armour hanging around in the sewers. Because that's what thieves do, they dress in leather armour (and wield ginourmous DAGGERS) and hang around in grimdark sewers. And call each other stupid things like "Nightingales".

In Morrowind, the Thieves Guild wasn't even a place. There was no guild hall, just certain people with shared interests hanging around in certain cornerclubs and taverns. Maybe some of those taverns were a little shady, but there were ordinary patrons in them too, as could be expected. And the members of the Thieves Guild didn't wear LEATHER ARMOUR. They wore ordinary clothes, like ordinary people. You couldn't figure out who was a member of the Thieves Guild just by looking at the amount of leather he was wearing.

This is the leader of the Thieves Guild in Skyrim:

This is the leader of the Thieves Guild in Morrowind:

This is where thieves gather in Skyrim:

This is (one of the places) where thieves gather in Morrowind:

Q.E.D.

Surprisingly, even Oblivion did the Thieves Guild better than Skyrim.

 

[Metro]

I remember in Curse of the Azure Bonds the Fire Knives were an organized thieves guild who wore similar clothes and hung out in the sewers of Tilverton. So... there goes your theory.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

And the members of the Thieves Guild didn't wear LEATHER ARMOUR. They wore ordinary clothes, like ordinary people. You couldn't figure out who was a member of the Thieves Guild just by looking at the amount of leather he was wearing.

Well, half of them actually do wear (netch) leather or chitin. Habasi is the first member you'll probably meet and she looks like this.

 

[Eyeball]

Personally, I liked the "fence stolen items worth X amount of gold" quests you had to do before you got the next big important heist job in Oblivion. In Skyrim's TG questline, I felt a lot more like Indiana Jones than Arsene Lupin most of the time, exploring crypts and fighting zombies. The other games had far more grounded theft targets, some of which required some points in the thieving skills. I also missed the skill requirements for advancement in Skyrim guilds - it felt bizarre that my heavy-armour orc could become grandmaster wizard without ever having cast a single spell.

 

[Gozma]

Wikipedia says the term "Thieves' Guild" comes from a Cervantes story and it seems likely it was a joke to make it into an explicit and at-that-time contemporary late medieval/renaissance guild. By the way you kids have it great with the internet if you didn't know

 

[Eyeball]

Don't get too hung up on the name of the gangster organisation, most real life ones have silly names too.

Yakuza = losing card combination in a Japanese card game
Cosa Nostra = Our Cause
Vory v Zakone = "thieves-in-law"
Triads = Chinese mysticist reference

and so on.

 

[DraQ]

And the members of the Thieves Guild didn't wear LEATHER ARMOUR. They wore ordinary clothes, like ordinary people. You couldn't figure out who was a member of the Thieves Guild just by looking at the amount of leather he was wearing.

Well, half of them actually do wear (netch) leather or chitin. Habasi is the first member you'll probably meet and she looks like this.

Then again, you do meet unaffiliated people and members of other organizations wearing various sorts of armour in taverns and cornerclubs.
This isn't any sort of distinguishing feature of TG.

The main thing is that TG members in Morrowind aren't uniformed, while those in Skyrim pretty much are.

 

[Turjan]

The main thing is that TG members in Morrowind aren't uniformed, while those in Skyrim pretty much are.

Indeed. Also, in Skyrim, everyone knows who they are and where they meet. The guy in the throne room mentions that he cannot find the necessary 12 men to end the thieves guild. The whole setup is pathetic.

 

[Eyeball]

Not really, Thug Uniform works fine for the Hell's Angels.

 

[AW8]

It's like Bethesda couldn't decide on one single design for the Thieves Guild in Skyrim.

On one hand, they hide in the sewers, sneak around and leave "invisible" marks for each other telling what places to rob, and membership is supposed to be secret.

On the other hand, they're supposed to be this known mafia wearing recognizable armor ("Try to hide it all you want. I know you're in the Thieves Guild... and so do the other guards.") that extorts the shop owners of Riften and are protected from the Jarl through their boss, Maven Black-Briar.

 

[Bio Force Ape]

Surprisingly, even Oblivion did the Thieves Guild better than Skyrim.

It was actually a really well done series of quests, with options to do them all sans violence. Best part of a shit game.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Every guild in Skyrim feels retardo MAJESTIC AND EPIC when compared not only to Morrowind but Oblibion even if local... sorry Imperial scum should be more discrete in Morrowind and don't offer the job to uniforemed member of Imperial Legion; great premise would be being contacted only while being incarnated in jails or having high bounty/infamy... Like real life Organized crime Syndicates do. But after installing Morrownd Overhaul Mod 3.0 with few extras I am shocked how far the TES has fallen; Caius Cosades sending you to create your cover identity and return to do some bring me coffee level jobs only when competent enough >>> Emperor giving you the criminal scum the Chim-el Adabal and Blades accepting this after finding this scum with bloody weapon next to Emprah corpse; or slaying dragons on 2nd-3rd level and everybody calling you Faggotborn even when you didn't touched main quest in Skyrim. Fracking Consolisis and her illiterate ADS generation.

 

[Carrion]

Habasi is a bit too eager to invite you to join them. You'd think that would backfire pretty quickly.

 

[Alex]

Wikipedia says the term "Thieves' Guild" comes from a Cervantes story and it seems likely it was a joke to make it into an explicit and at-that-time contemporary late medieval/renaissance guild. By the way you kids have it great with the internet if you didn't know

And furthermore the Thieve's Guild of Lankhmar is an important staple of the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories. Which helped to catapult the idea into a staple of pulpy fantasy. It doesn't matter in the least that the idea is ridiculous, it is part of what makes these stories fun.

 

[DraQ]

Surprisingly, even Oblivion did the Thieves Guild better than Skyrim.

It was actually a really well done series of quests, with options to do them all sans violence. Best part of a shit game.

The only questline I could be arsed to complete in base OB. The oversized hourglass near the end still made it pretty clear that the creative team was running on vapours (of glue, presumably) and fence quests sucked due to there being no good shit to steal in game - you felt less like a professional removing valuable stuff from inventories for profit and more like an asshole stealing set amount of people's household junk on a dare.

It's like Bethesda couldn't decide on one single design for the Thieves Guild in Skyrim.

On one hand, they hide in the sewers, sneak around and leave "invisible" marks for each other telling what places to rob, and membership is supposed to be secret.

On the other hand, they're supposed to be this known mafia wearing recognizable armor ("Try to hide it all you want. I know you're in the Thieves Guild... and so do the other guards.") that extorts the shop owners of Riften and are protected from the Jarl through their boss, Maven Black-Briar.

I think they're supposed to be once powerful organization down on its luck, but yeah, the setup is limping pretty badly.

or slaying dragons on 2nd-3rd level and everybody calling you Faggotborn even when you didn't touched main quest in Skyrim.

At least you had pretty good chance of actually having guards do the hard work for you, while the important part of faggotborn part was mostly just being a soulsponge ensuring they stay down - they might as well just roll you out on a cart whenever a dragon is killed without active participation on your part.

Skyrim doesn't have shit on the atrocity that was Oblivion's MQ setup.

Habasi is a bit too eager to invite you to join them. You'd think that would backfire pretty quickly.

True dat, though.

 

[Arkadin]

Everyone agrees that Thieves Guilds are stupid and nonsensical.

Of course they are. Game designers should recognize that Beggars Guilds are much more reasonable and plausible.

 

[Commissar Draco]

or slaying dragons on 2nd-3rd level and everybody calling you Faggotborn even when you didn't touched main quest in Skyrim.

At least you had pretty good chance of actually having guards do the hard work for you, while the important part of faggotborn part was mostly just being a soulsponge ensuring they stay down - they might as well just roll you out on a cart whenever a dragon is killed without active participation on your part.

Well you didn't possed any superpower both in DF, Morrowind and Oblibion; no supernatural nonsense just good old sercet service work; you could even tell Dagoth Uhr you're not Neverarine at all; just servant of Emprah/Azura pawn or random guy who did MQ for teh fat loot.

Skyrim doesn't have shit on the atrocity that was Oblivion's MQ setup.

Both are atrocious; its that the hiking simulator part of TES is far more superior in Skyrim; No Potato faces and Skyrim actually looking like snow covered shithole as it was portrayed in lore doing the trick; also locals starting good nord fashioned civil war the moment Empire was in turmoil beats the lack of any political intrigue in Oblibion; still if Oblibion was made now you would have to untastfuly rape St. Allessia corpse to make MQ more MAJESTIC.

Habasi is a bit too eager to invite you to join them. You'd think that would backfire pretty quickly.

True dat, though.[/quote]

True but try to play as fedora colovian hat wearing omega bosmer tweedeb who joined house telvani and native temple and she won't be as eager to share intel with you.

And you still can't join Camora Tong but

Spoiler

You can make bloody Massacre Inspector Callahan style on them

Beats untouchable TG from Skyrim .

 

[tred]

Cosa Nostra = Our Cause

:D

Cosa Nostra means "Our Thing".

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's like Bethesda couldn't decide on one single design for the Thieves Guild in Skyrim.

On one hand, they hide in the sewers, sneak around and leave "invisible" marks for each other telling what places to rob, and membership is supposed to be secret.

On the other hand, they're supposed to be this known mafia wearing recognizable armor ("Try to hide it all you want. I know you're in the Thieves Guild... and so do the other guards.") that extorts the shop owners of Riften and are protected from the Jarl through their boss, Maven Black-Briar.

I think they're supposed to be once powerful organization down on its luck, but yeah, the setup is limping pretty badly.

They want dat street respect and you don't get that acting discreetly, though some secrecy is needed since they're not strong enough to outright ignore the guards. Plus they are allowed to exist by the local Mafiosi family. The Thieves guild in Morrowind was on the brink of being pushed out of business by the Camonna Tong so they couldn't afford to get uppity.

The guard dialogue suggests that the "thief armor" is not supposed to be something the other characters instantly recognize, for all intents and purposes it's just particularly good leather armor.

 

[sea]

Personally, I liked the "fence stolen items worth X amount of gold" quests you had to do before you got the next big important heist job in Oblivion. In Skyrim's TG questline, I felt a lot more like Indiana Jones than Arsene Lupin most of the time, exploring crypts and fighting zombies. The other games had far more grounded theft targets, some of which required some points in the thieving skills. I also missed the skill requirements for advancement in Skyrim guilds - it felt bizarre that my heavy-armour orc could become grandmaster wizard without ever having cast a single spell.

I agree, I liked the fencing aspect in Oblivion too, was a nice integration of more freeform game mechanics into wider quest structure. In other words it basically rewarded you for adopting the playstyle the guild already endorsed - pretty smart. In Skyrim, the Thieves Guild didn't really have much to do with actual thievery.

 

[Jugashvili]

The mood was undoubtedly better in MW; the Soopa Seekrit Schtick in OB was a bit trite, and the less said about the Skyrim thieves guild, the better. However, beyond actual mood, the elephant in the room is that thievery (and money) is pointless in a world with levelled loot and levelled merchant lists. Sure, the OB thieves guild encouraged stealing stuff -- but what for? After hocking off all the tongs and hourglasses you could get your grubby paws on, there still wasn't anything worth buying so you couldn't really spend your ill-gotten gains.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Skyrim Thieves Guild is retarded.

 

[DalekFlay]

Ideally every faction or guild in a game of this type should give you a different feel and mood from the rest of the game. As a mages guild member you should feel like a scholar, a researcher, a fucking bad-ass Telvanni wizard death machine. The fighter's and warrior's shit should make you feel like a grunt, a war machine, a fucking Viking. And of course a thieves guild sort of thing should make you feel like a rogue, a Garrett, a sneaky and charming speedster who never gets caught and no one knew was there. Morrowind did a really good job on all three of those, honestly, though for the fighters they really focused on the mercenary angle more than any kind of noble warrior aspect, which is fine. Anyway yes, I think you nailed it, Morrowind excelled at setting those moods. For the Temple and other factions too.

Oblivion's thieves guild went for the stupid Robin Hood thing, and like most of Oblivion felt over the top, cheesy and too high fantasy. Skyrim's is weird... you start off as a thug, which honestly felt kind of gross and stupid to me. I don't want to be a fucking thug harassing shopkeepers, that's no fun. After that you feel like a mercenary for that Blackbriar bitch, then all of a sudden you're a Daedric warrior? Like what? The whole thing felt weird and dumb from start to finish, I never felt immersed or excited to continue.

That said on the gameplay front Skyrim does sneaking very well, especially with archery. That early thieves guild mission with the bee hive mansion was pretty damn good, felt like Thief 2 for brief moments. Unfortunately that's pretty much the only mission like that as far as I remember, the rest are typical dungeon dives. Sneaky archers are very fun in Skyrim though, but they work better as assassins and fit better with the Dark Brotherhood I guess.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The mood was undoubtedly better in MW; the Soopa Seekrit Schtick in OB was a bit trite, and the less said about the Skyrim thieves guild, the better. However, beyond actual mood, the elephant in the room is that thievery (and money) is pointless in a world with levelled loot and levelled merchant lists. Sure, the OB thieves guild encouraged stealing stuff -- but what for? After hocking off all the tongs and hourglasses you could get your grubby paws on, there still wasn't anything worth buying so you couldn't really spend your ill-gotten gains.

It's TES. The money is for spending on trainers.

 

[Jugashvili]

It's TES. The money is for spending on trainers.

>Retarded training cap in OB means you can't go on mad training binges like in MW