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This game would really benefit from

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Modding tools!

So what have you been doing, Styg? What are you up to now?
 

Major_Blackhart

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You know, I wonder if it would.
Part of me wants that, but another part of me says it's a damn good game as it is.
Insanely in depth, thoughtful, difficult, atmospheric. Modding has the habit of breaking that.
Still, it could definitely attract attention to the game.
 

Severian Silk

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Does fan created stuff ruin the original work it's based on? Can't say that about Bethesda games since they suck to begin with.
 

Jazz_

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I think what the game lacks is C&C, it's too linear and combat-focused, if Underrail was a bit more like AOD in that regard it would have been an even better game.
 

blessedCoffee

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Modding tools!

Sorry for grave digging, but the developer should consider releasing the UnderRail editor publicly, so map makers could use such a tool to create new locations for this world.


I seem to recall the developer mentioning the existence of a "mapping" tool in an old interview, if that's the case, I'm sure many players would appreciate getting access to this tool, even if it may be buggy or "unfriendly" to newbies. Unstable programs haven't stopped dedicated modders, from releasing pretty good expansions and such, for all kinds of video games.


I had a blast with this game. But I wouldn't mind seeing new content, from the fans.
 

epeli

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I'm afraid that's never gonna happen. Styg is vehemently against any third party contribution to his games, and this attitude has only gotten worse over the years despite community wishes. At best he used to tolerate some web resources while shutting down any modding attempts, but Infusion won't even have a wiki. The future of other third party webtools is also uncertain. I wouldn't be surprised if he extends his anti-modding and anti-wiki attitude to most of those. Better hope Infusion will at least have proper tools to play with puzzles in-game instead of Underrail's immersion-breaking out-of-game puzzle solving...
 

epeli

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anti-modding and anti-wiki attitude
Whats his arguments?
Beats me, I never understood his train of thought regarding that and I'm not in contact with Stygian Software anymore.
I reached my personal goal of ensuring Underrail's success (by fostering a friendly community in the early days, then patching the game's shortfalls by making the wiki, character builder, and other tools, plus getting Sseth involved) so Styg can make more incline, but I can't fix the man himself.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
At best he used to tolerate some web resources while shutting down any modding attempts, but Infusion won't even have a wiki.
What do you mean? Can you elaborate on this? I always assumed Infusion would be added onto the existing Underrail wiki. Is he actively going to prevent any information from Infusion to be recorded?
 

Serus

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At best he used to tolerate some web resources while shutting down any modding attempts, but Infusion won't even have a wiki.
What do you mean? Can you elaborate on this? I always assumed Infusion would be added onto the existing Underrail wiki. Is he actively going to prevent any information from Infusion to be recorded?
Also, how can you do that, legally? Forbidding use of any assets from the game - sure, i can see that. However on what legal grounds can anyone stop a purely fan web page with just some writing about a game? Is that even possible?
 

Trashos

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I can understand a creator's possible anti-modding attitute. If I have poured my heart and soul into my creation, I wouldn't necessarily want any retard to be able to piss all over it. Moddability has its own advantages, but I can understand the anti-modding views as well.

But anti-wiki?! Why?!
 
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Being against a wiki is insane. And futile anyway, it's not like there's any way to stop people making one. It just means it'll be hosted on some other website instead of his.
This is so bizarre. I can understand being protective and not wanting people to mod the game, but all a wiki does is help people understand it. Why wouldn't he want that? It's so dumb.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I mean, wikis are cancer in the sense that they allow people to look up walkthroughs and spoil the game for themselves. The sheer awesomeness of the Oculus questline loses a ton of luster if you just check the wiki to figure it out. Part of the reason the quest was so amazing is because the whole time I thought I was perusing the Free Drone quest line (considering how the Oculus quest line starts). Imagine my surprise when I ended up being completely wrong. A legendary RPG moment if there was any.

This is why my experience with Disco Elysium was also so special. I played the game right when it released, and no wiki had been written yet. Discovering every little thing was an awesome adventure, and I'm glad the wiki wasn't around to potentially spoil the game.

All that being said, I think that not allowing a wiki does more harm than foul. We are big boys, and we should have the right to choose whether or not we ruin our gaming experience by checking for spoilers on a wiki. At the end of the day, while I can appreciate Styg wanting his games to be appreciated in the most patrician way possible, there is a line that you can cross, which will just lead to a less accessible game, and less fun for those that have already accessed the game. I'm all for no mods and Styg wanting to hold onto what he's worked so hard to create, but disallowing a wiki would really suck! It would definitely make the game less replayable due to the difficulty of accessing information so that we can theory craft builds.

I will say, while Epeli is a credible source, I do think we should wait for some citations before we jump on this band wagon. Did Styg outright state that he will not allow a wiki for Underrail: Infusion?
 

laclongquan

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I mean, wikis are cancer in the sense that they allow people to look up walkthroughs and spoil the game for themselves. The sheer awesomeness of the Oculus questline loses a ton of luster if you just check the wiki to figure it out. Part of the reason the quest was so amazing is because the whole time I thought I was perusing the Free Drone quest line (considering how the Oculus quest line starts). Imagine my surprise when I ended up being completely wrong. A legendary RPG moment if there was any.
Wrrrrrrrrong!

I can tell you right away a good game never get affected by information saturation.

I lurk here in Codex absorbing all sort of information about about Bloodlines for years after its release. The first hour I spent with it was entirely with lots of information about the game, the story, the builds etc. I chose my very first build as Malkavian knowing all the good things and bad things about all the builds, and days of considering which is better. You can say for sure I was spoiled in all aspect of the game.

Does that spoil any thing in my first game? No. The story, the gameplay, the meta.... Everything is retained. There are only two kind of Bloodlines players, the Malkavian virgin and the not.

Oversaturation of information wont spoil any game unless it's a bad game that rely on lack of information to lure unsuspecting suckers into playing it.

Considering 95% of game writers really suck at it, I can understand the anti-wiki movement though.
 
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External resources are still really useful even without any information on quests. Being able to quickly check the differences between weapon frames or metal types, or what upgrades do, or what requirements items have for crafting, or so many other things is really helpful. Or even just the most simple things like how much xp it takes to level. Getting rid of the simple way to check that just makes the game less enjoyable. It doesn't make it better in any way, it's just less enjoyable.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I did some digging, and found what we were looking for.
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Big oof to be honest. I think a large reason why the game has such a reputation for being so difficult is due to all the YouTube reviews of the game which basically say that, along with what people have said on Underrail'S Reddit. It's possible that Styg has more information than us, and that Underrail.info actually has an impact on how people perceive the game, but I have no clue how this would even work. Seriously though, here are two of the most viewed reviews of Underrail on YouTube that highlight the difficulty of the game and how you should follow a recommended build for a first time play through. Each link is timestamped to where in the video the reviewer says as much.

Sszeth
Strat-Edgy Productions

Not just that, but here is a Reddit post (gross I know) relevant to this topic. The poster flat out says that the source of why he assumed the game would require extreme optimization is due to all the reviews he read.

https://www.reddit.com/r/underrail/comments/riwm52/why_was_everyone_presenting_this_game_to_me_as/

There are many other posts like this, and I think a big part of why the game has garnered such a reputation is because the game's audience actually fosters said reputation because it's something that we consider to be cool and refreshing. It is still super early in the games development cycle and it's possible Styg will change his mind. We will see in the future.
 

Trashos

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- Does Styg expect that people will come from a Bethesda or Obsidian game and not find Underrail somewhat troublesome? I do not agree with his conclusion here. As a matter of fact, lack of a wiki will probably make the average player fear the game even MORE.

- Underrail has so much stuff going on that I often forget what I used to know. This doesn't happen to me in any other game btw (other than chess). The wiki does help a lot.

- Not to mention that (if Infusion is like the previous game) several lifetimes won't be enough to discover everything on our own.

- How would anyone ever appreciate the infused leather armor quality equation without the wiki?!
OK, now I am trolling.
 
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I look forward to playing Infusion without spoiling it for myself by reading guides and wiki pages, same with the upcoming Hollow Knight game. I support Styg on that.
No modding is a real facepalm and a shame, but at least he patches the game a lot, effectively modding it himself. That frozen tower addition is the sort of thing modders make.
 

Shadenuat

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So? Game having a mythos of being hard can be easily used to its advantage, like happened with DS.
You can't fix whats in players minds.
 

Serus

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I look forward to playing Infusion without spoiling it for myself by reading guides and wiki pages, same with the upcoming Hollow Knight game. I support Styg on that.
No modding is a real facepalm and a shame, but at least he patches the game a lot, effectively modding it himself. That frozen tower addition is the sort of thing modders make.
Isn't it better and easier just... oh i don't know... to not look in wiki? We are not talking about including some wiki-like stuff INSIDE the game here.
I did use wiki for Underrail a few times - but never looking for quest info, just mechanics. How does it make the game any worse for anyone?
 
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I look forward to playing Infusion without spoiling it for myself by reading guides and wiki pages, same with the upcoming Hollow Knight game. I support Styg on that.
No modding is a real facepalm and a shame, but at least he patches the game a lot, effectively modding it himself. That frozen tower addition is the sort of thing modders make.
Isn't it better and easier just... oh i don't know... to not look in wiki? We are not talking about including some wiki-like stuff INSIDE the game here.
I did use wiki for Underrail a few times - but never looking for quest info, just mechanics. How does it make the game any worse for anyone?
Because I am a low impulse control subhuman, so I need Styg to supress the wiki for me.
 

Scrounger

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I think there's no need for panic. Styg and co. are indeed against the wiki but they won't prevent anyone in extending the already existing one. (if we don't count random encounters that they like to expand upon and which are already hard to find in the game files).
What they said tho is that they would like to have some sort of in-game wiki for additional info...
 

Serus

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I look forward to playing Infusion without spoiling it for myself by reading guides and wiki pages, same with the upcoming Hollow Knight game. I support Styg on that.
No modding is a real facepalm and a shame, but at least he patches the game a lot, effectively modding it himself. That frozen tower addition is the sort of thing modders make.
Isn't it better and easier just... oh i don't know... to not look in wiki? We are not talking about including some wiki-like stuff INSIDE the game here.
I did use wiki for Underrail a few times - but never looking for quest info, just mechanics. How does it make the game any worse for anyone?
Because I am a low impulse control subhuman, so I need Styg to supress the wiki for me.
That I can understand and sympathize. My compulsions are only strong enough to be dangerous when the option is in the game itself. Once it is somewhere else (like in a wiki) i can control myself. Maybe try to block the knowledge about the existence of wiki itself. If it doesn't exist - it can't harm you. :smug:
 

Trashos

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This all sounds dangerously close to Tim Cain's "I gotta get rid of numbers because they are scaring people".

He too was trying to improve people's experience, you know.
 

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