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Thoughts on The White March Expansion

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,890
Yes, they can.
Yeah sorry, meant stone golem.

Barely existent, also not a fan.
Anti magic area in HotU was p. awesome.

There are all kinds of ways you can overcome obstacles in P&P, but in computer role playing games you only have the RAW.
Nice way to move the goalpost, we were talking about PnP in the first place.
UMD could make most of your weaknesses as a rogue go away, it made it one of the most flexible classes in the entire game.
Also you are speaking as if there was ANY class balance in the entire game. Considering some classes minor class features were more powerful than entire classes.
Your arguments are weak. step it up.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,038
Yeah sorry, meant stone golem.

Doesn't change anything.

Nice way to move the goalpost, we were talking about PnP in the first place.

In the first place we were talking about rules made for something that has only been a computer game.

The flexibility of P&P lets RPG designers get away with creating a lot of bad rules. They should do their jobs and create the best rules possible anyway.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,890
Doesn't change anything.
Course it does, the DR alone makes sure he will do close to 0 damage while still taking tons of it himself. and the armor class makes it so that over half his attacks will miss at the highest BAB

In the first place we were talking about rules made for something that has only been a computer game.
Dont change the fact that we were talking pnp in the first place:
Pathfinder is the most popular tabletop RPG.
etc.


The flexibility of P&P lets RPG designers get away with creating a lot of bad rules. They should do their jobs and create the best rules possible anyway.
I agree, i just believe your particular brand of rules is worse in every possible way than their brand of bad rules. Why this is a fact ive told you before. And its been proven with PoE. Bland, boring shit that never changes, because by design its supposed not to alter things too much, because you are too afraid of hurting a character class with stuff that is hard or impossible to overcome as they are out of the box.
In this context i believe sneak attack immunity because you have no discernible anatomy the rogue can take advantage of is good design, it makes for a dynamic and less predictable game.
 

Stompa

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
531
In this context i believe sneak attack immunity because you have no discernible anatomy the rogue can take advantage of is good design, it makes for a dynamic and less predictable game.

In practice it turns out having creatures ignore the main mechanic of a class is mad gay, even in PnP. MotB is good example of that, it was chockfull of such monsters and you're fucked if you rolled a rogue (good thing it also had clericzilla as a companion).
 

Trash Player

Augur
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
471
Good encounter/dungeon design can circumvent somewhat the inherent weakness of a system, e.g. have a group of rival adventurers tracked by your ranger and then surgically removed by your stealthy members, finding anti-undead devices that only rogues or bards can realistically use, so they are not worthless for the guaranteed tomb level VS having a party of divine casters just steamrolling the tomb.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,038
Course it does, the DR alone makes sure he will do close to 0 damage while still taking tons of it himself. and the armor class makes it so that over half his attacks will miss at the highest BAB

Use an adamantine weapon, problem solved. I don't recall having particular AC difficulties.

MotB is good example of that, it was chockfull of such monsters and you're fucked if you rolled a rogue (good thing it also had clericzilla as a companion).

They knew it was a problem, so they added the epic precision feat (allowing for nerfed sneak attacks on creatures immune) and the various Ruin weapons that allowed for nerfed crits.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,890
Use an adamantine weapon, problem solved.
So use a true death or demolition crystal as needed as a rogue and you shouldnt have much problem, you can also use scrolls . if we are bringing gear into (your extremely rare by most standards, adamantine weapon) this you must understand that gear progression is an issue in 3.5 due to the fact that the system simply goes to shit if you even attempt a low magic approach (which everyone and their mother seems to want to do, for some absolutely retarded reason and lack of understanding of this particular system) without powering down caster classes. In fact the only balanced approach to 3.5, especially on mid to high level is high fantasy with magical item shops around the corner and unlimited access to stuff in the manual PLUS custom magical items.
I don't recall having particular AC difficulties.
AC 26 as a lvl 14 fighter is rather hard to reach. Asuming elite range and your main attribute at 18 thanks to level increases, which would be the highest possible unless you have racial bonuses, youd have BAB 18, thats a 40% chance to miss with your first attack, a 65% chance to miss on your second attack and a 90% chance to miss on your third attack. Not to mention the immunity to critical hits that leaves one of the biggest contributors to burst damage, the improved critical feat, useless.
The stone golem has BAB +18, while the warrior outfitted with a full plate armor would have AC 18, 20 if he uses his second highest attribute on dexterity, which i wouldnt, constitution and intelligence are more important for most fighters due to hp and feat req respectively. So the golem would have a 90%-95% chance to hit with both strikes strike.
Damage calculations are also a bit onesided. as the golem does 2d10+9, while the vanilla fighter does at most 2d6+8, without using power attack (which he cant really afford because of low chance to hit.
Mathematically he cant beat a creature of his hown HD that as a encounter is 3 levels below him without using magical gear, so he is in actually worst standing than the rogue, that can actually avoid the encounter easily or lure it into traps of his own making, etc.

The truth of 3.5 is that its complete shit from a design point of view, but that shit desing at least allows for variety and interesting situations, which cannot be said of sawyers shit design. To understand the system a bit more take a look at this.

http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0
Classes per tier, to see how much difference there is in power and possibilities between each class. You will find that rogues, with their "shit" sneak attacks that dont apply to some monster types still outperform half the PHB classes and really, half the classes of the system in general. A rogue is about as sneak attack centric as a druid is reliant on his shapeshift feature, or a rangers animal companion, its a very nice thing on the side, but not what the class is about at all, tho most individuals combat focused tunnel vision can fool them into thinking it is.

They knew it was a problem, so they added the epic precision feat (allowing for nerfed sneak attacks on creatures immune) and the various Ruin weapons that allowed for nerfed crits.
They didnt bring a super new idea to the game when they did that, as i told you before, there were means of overcoming those immunities, and actually empowered sneak attacks in the system. Being able to bend or break rules with magical items is what makes them magical roguey, and not pointless garbage like weve seen everyone complaining about in poe, save 2-3 exceptions that i bet have been nerfed to oblivion by now.

Im not defending 3.5 at all btw, just attacking your banal shit boring philosophies because they are actually worst than 3.5, and i REALLY despise 3.5.

In practice it turns out having creatures ignore the main mechanic of a class is mad gay, even in PnP. MotB is good example of that, it was chockfull of such monsters and you're fucked if you rolled a rogue (good thing it also had clericzilla as a companion).

Sure, except you were fucked if you rolled many things, you could certainly build a fucking useless character, but the game gave you companions that could carry you, so meh.
 
Last edited:

Stompa

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
531
AC 26 as a lvl 14 fighter is rather hard to reach. Asuming elite range and your main attribute at 18 thanks to level increases, which would be the highest possible unless you have racial bonuses, youd have BAB 18, thats a 40% chance to miss with your first attack, a 65% chance to miss on your second attack and a 90% chance to miss on your third attack. Not to mention the immunity to critical hits that leaves one of the biggest contributors to burst damage, the improved critical feat, useless.

Why are you completely disregarding WBL? 14th level fighter is assumed to have 140k gold, that's a plenty to buy a +5 weapon and armor, with +6 to Str item as well. That's not to mention well-built fighter ignores power attack penalties, but that's a different story alltogether. I get it, you hate 3.5, I hate 3.5 as well, but let's not misrepresent the faults of the system, it has plenty of real ones to be discussed. Dealing damage has never been a problem for fighters, everything else was.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,890
Why are you completely disregarding WBL? 14th level fighter is assumed to have 140k gold, that's a plenty to buy a +5 weapon and armor, with +6 to Str item as well. That's not to mention well-built fighter ignores power attack penalties, but that's a different story alltogether. I get it, you hate 3.5, I hate 3.5 as well, but let's not misrepresent the faults of the system, it has plenty of real ones to be discussed. Dealing damage has never been a problem for fighters, everything else was.
Because roguey is telling me my rogue cannot have truedeath and demolition crystals. Keep up.
 

Stompa

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
531
Truedeath and demolition crystals only apply to two monster types immune to SA though, leaving the rest of sneak immune monsters untouched. At best they are a bandaid, like that Penetrating Strike alternate class feature.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,890
For the rest you can always use scrolls, wands or a holy weapon of any description. If you have magical items available rogue is probably one of the strongest classes in the entire game by virtue of UMD alone.
 

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