Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[J_C]

Of course, in this case they'd have to secure rights to an existing pen and paper rule set, and a popular one.

I wonder if there are any pen and paper rulesets in this day and age which are higly popular. Sure, people know D&D, but pen and paper RPGs are becoming more and more nich IMO.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Of course, in this case they'd have to secure rights to an existing pen and paper rule set, and a popular one.

I wonder if there are any pen and paper rulesets in this day and age which are higly popular. Sure, people know D&D, but pen and paper RPGs are becoming more and more nich IMO.

Fuck if I would have a lot of money I fucking buy out Planescape setting. That shit is Gold and will remain gold.

 

[Azarkon]

Of course, in this case they'd have to secure rights to an existing pen and paper rule set, and a popular one.

I wonder if there are any pen and paper rulesets in this day and age which are higly popular. Sure, people know D&D, but pen and paper RPGs are becoming more and more nich IMO.

I'd actually say pen and paper is more popular today than they were ten years ago:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/2015/04/15/new-dungeons-dragons-fifth-edition/#2a48d7f31be8

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthrea...etime-PHB-sales-outsell-lifetime-3-3-5-4-quot

 

[Ruzen]

I think the main problem when FRP, D&D, RPG, CRPG or maybe even JRPG lovers: they can't identify the gameplay elements correctly.

Most of the "I want hardcore RPG" sayers here actually wants a Detailed Character Sheet game. Which is T.Cain here trying to say in the presentation! That games are not novels or movies. Gameplay has to come first. In a novel, you can criticize for being lousy at grammar,etc.. even when It's a good exciting to read. In a movie, the editing always comes first! So in PC-games the gameplay should always your first concern too. RPG games shouldn't be about creating the most optimal chars like It's a hack&slash game. Even the better hack&slash games are not the ones which don't have 1000 talent trees. E.g. Nox, Silver.

Why Divinity: OS is one of the most enjoyable RPGs today? It doesn't have complicated characters or doesn't promote character sheeting. It has huge gameplay features complex the game enough. Arcanum had a crazy amount of balance issues and let's be fair, It had the most bizarre character progression It was only fun because the game lets you fun around with the game with details!

I'm not trying to say your opinions are completely wrong but hardcore RPG doesn't gather It's strength from numbers or mathematical formulas on how to hit.

 

[Telengard]

At this stage, it looks like no edition of D&D is going to ever beat the sales of the original, since all editions have been a bare fraction since. I mean, Diablo vs Temple of Apshai sales numbers difference. With 5e, they managed to get some of the old 2e people to come back and buy new stuff, and that boosted sales, but it's still the same old market where every year more people are leaving the hobby than are coming in. The advent of online stores has allowed a lot of companies to cling to a kind of half-life, where collectors buy pnp stuff that they will never use - much like Steam is for computer games. Everyone I still talk to in the industry talks about it as a readers market, not a players market. And at the same time, the last remaining major companies like Hasbro/WotC have gotten better about reselling the same product over and over to the same people, but a lot of the old dev hands got out while the gettings good.

Unless Generation Z starts picking up pnp (as in buying product with their own money, not just playing with their da), there's a lot more shrinkage to come, too. So, no, there aren't really any huge fanbases to draw on, like there once was with D&D, back when it was a million seller. At this stage, the synergy tie-in just isn't there, so there's no reason to give the first cut of your profit to a bunch of guys not doing any of the work making the game.

 

[decaf]

IMO part of the answer is that it's dumb to define 8000 variants of "talky" character on a statistical level, rather than treating the character's talky-ness as a given, and make the variation happen in response to environmental choices (alliances forged, information gathered, gear equipped, etc.). In that way, you can achieve min-maxing in the face of obstacles without having point hoarding.

noice

And that’s why you want to make the first fights hard, not easy. You will know right from the beginning whether your build is good or not..

Not entirely true. Build decisions also depends on game's item abundance, XP availability etc., which you can only learn by: boosting the gameintro&chargen, using a build guide, or prior playthroughs.

I think a tough first fight wouldn't solve all problems. If a tough first fight is implemented, would the player learn: investment in Energy Weapons as universally bad; or would they learn Energy Weapons is worthwhile, but only later in the game?

But the player doesn’t know in advance what will happen to him in race games, platform games, arcade games, etc. He fails and reload, or start from the beginning if he has no lives. I don’t understand why things should be any different with cRPGs.

cRPGs: Initial builds matter a lot. Chargen stat specialization affects the rest of the entire game. This is also exacerbated by how difficult the stat checks/item stat restrictions that game uses.

Other games: Importance of chargen is severely reduced or entirely inapplicable. You can always swap characters/cars/guns/loadouts without affecting your playthrough. Re-planning has little overhead, each play/round is only several minutes long, versus hours-long cRPG campaigns.

Or in some games you're stuck with the same character and are forced to git gud. Since cRPG offers customization via chargen, the mere existence of customization lures the player to re-rolling if the first build sucks.

 

[ArchAngel]

So I see Tim didn't came back after he rested :D

 

[Davaris]

At this stage, it looks like no edition of D&D is going to ever beat the sales of the original, since all editions have been a bare fraction since. I mean, Diablo vs Temple of Apshai sales numbers difference. With 5e, they managed to get some of the old 2e people to come back and buy new stuff, and that boosted sales, but it's still the same old market where every year more people are leaving the hobby than are coming in. The advent of online stores has allowed a lot of companies to cling to a kind of half-life, where collectors buy pnp stuff that they will never use - much like Steam is for computer games. Everyone I still talk to in the industry talks about it as a readers market, not a players market. And at the same time, the last remaining major companies like Hasbro/WotC have gotten better about reselling the same product over and over to the same people, but a lot of the old dev hands got out while the gettings good.

Unless Generation Z starts picking up pnp (as in buying product with their own money, not just playing with their da), there's a lot more shrinkage to come, too. So, no, there aren't really any huge fanbases to draw on, like there once was with D&D, back when it was a million seller. At this stage, the synergy tie-in just isn't there, so there's no reason to give the first cut of your profit to a bunch of guys not doing any of the work making the game.

People are too lazy to go to meet up at someone else's house. That's always been a problem with PnP.

Selling new rules endlessly is just silly IMO. They cost a lot and people don't want to keep paying for it. They should just make modules for the most popular rule set.

I had the impression they were doing better on Kickstarter than computer game devs. Not that I would know as I don't pay attention, but don't lead figure sellers make big money there?

So I see Tim didn't came back after he rested :D

Smart man. lol

 

[Roguey]

Which was not their IP, their engine and not even their core game. It was a mod or a slam dunk project, which they excel at, because than you don't have emphasize on execution (engine, gfx, movement, animations, AI etc.) and can add things they were great at like: Story, characters, C&C, and encounter design.
I have yet to see such success from them with their own game.

South Park 97% positive http://store.steampowered.com/app/213670/
Owners 2,054,429 http://steamspy.com/app/213670

Not their property, but it is their engine and their core game.

 

[Lurker King]

Everyone I still talk to in the industry talks about it as a readers market, not a players market. And at the same time, the last remaining major companies like Hasbro/WotC have gotten better about reselling the same product over and over to the same people, but a lot of the old dev hands got out while the gettings good.

Unless Generation Z starts picking up pnp (as in buying product with their own money, not just playing with their da), there's a lot more shrinkage to come, too. So, no, there aren't really any huge fanbases to draw on, like there once was with D&D, back when it was a million seller.

This. That's what happened with grognards too.

 

[Tiny Tim]

So I see Tim didn't came back after he rested :D

can't blame the man. We were rather rude to him. Still looking foward to whatever he's working on.

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

And yet we still can't define RPGs.

Why, yes. That is because it is difficult to operate with numbers and letters. But if we use geometric representation, defining RPG is really easy:

Rape
Prestige
Grognard

Now I start to understand. Good visualizations / geometric shapes really help when dealing with complex systems and ideas.

 

[Irenaeus]

So I see Tim didn't came back after he rested :D

He posted with his alt, you retard.

 

[Azarkon]

At this stage, it looks like no edition of D&D is going to ever beat the sales of the original, since all editions have been a bare fraction since. I mean, Diablo vs Temple of Apshai sales numbers difference. With 5e, they managed to get some of the old 2e people to come back and buy new stuff, and that boosted sales, but it's still the same old market where every year more people are leaving the hobby than are coming in. The advent of online stores has allowed a lot of companies to cling to a kind of half-life, where collectors buy pnp stuff that they will never use - much like Steam is for computer games. Everyone I still talk to in the industry talks about it as a readers market, not a players market. And at the same time, the last remaining major companies like Hasbro/WotC have gotten better about reselling the same product over and over to the same people, but a lot of the old dev hands got out while the gettings good.

Unless Generation Z starts picking up pnp (as in buying product with their own money, not just playing with their da), there's a lot more shrinkage to come, too. So, no, there aren't really any huge fanbases to draw on, like there once was with D&D, back when it was a million seller. At this stage, the synergy tie-in just isn't there, so there's no reason to give the first cut of your profit to a bunch of guys not doing any of the work making the game.

Isn't it possible that it's a reader's market because there's still a significant amount of interest in the games and the settings, but less in the social aspect of getting together at a dude's house and throwing dice? The new generations grew up with the internet and anonymity. I can't see them being very enthusiastic about house parties, but I can see them taking to online adventures.

 

[decaf]

The new generation likes anonymity? Hell no.

Maybe a tiny fraction of oldfags from 4chan or other places.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Please show me where I am bitching about the name. I literally just quoted ""narrative rpg" because MRY and his storytard ilk find the narrative part so damn important for whatever reason. So I chose to tell storytards to fuck off and go play adventure games like No Truce with the Furies.

There is literally nothing wrong with narratively driven RPGs and they offer much different experience than adventure games.

But I decided to go along with MRY's naming challenge anyhow since he mentioned BIS, which made games that are not really narrative rpgs. FFS, IWD and IWD are friggin dungeon crawlers. He tried to handwave (Crispy ) that fact away, but the truth is there's nothing really "narrative" about those games. Especially when compared to the other more story-based IE games.

Ok, but MRY didn't make that distinction. He mentioned Bioware/BIS/Obsidian/inXile/ITS RPGs

Couldn't you just get from context of the discussion what kind of games he meant?

It's too long because you're adding "is a bit shitty" to it. "Dating Sim ARPGs" might be a better compromise though. Which we'll call DARPGs = Dating ARPGs

There's still a problem with the fact that dating sim elements are extremely limited in Bioware games and can be skipped completely. A game is hardly a dating sim if dating is both garbage and optional.

Let's go with AoD-like

Perhaps Fallout-likes since there are currently only 2 AoD-likes in existence.

Why are you trying to make a distinction here? If I step in shit am I worried if it's human, dog, cat or horse shit?

Because otherwise the discussion becomes incomprehensible.

-Not to mention you can't use any of these games to collectivelly refer to story focused RPGs

I dunno what this means in the context you wrote it.[/QUOTE]

That means that you need one term for all of the above, not 3 different terms to call one kind of RPGs. "Good writer is important in narrative RPGs" is more to the point than "Good writer is important for DARTS, AoD likes and crap games".

 

[Irenaeus]

The new generation likes anonymity? Hell no.

Maybe a tiny fraction of oldfags from 4chan or other places.

You'd be surprised how we love anonymity.

 

[Mustawd]

There is literally nothing wrong with narratively driven RPGs and they offer much different experience than adventure games.

Couldn't you just get from context of the discussion what kind of games he meant?

No. Obviously. I have no idea what he meant. I just know he quoted those studios.

There's still a problem with the fact that dating sim elements are extremely limited in Bioware games and can be skipped completely. A game is hardly a dating sim if dating is both garbage and optional.

How are they extremely limited? Have you seen this?

Perhaps Fallout-likes since there are currently only 2 AoD-likes in existence.

FO1 or FO2 are not like AoD. AoD is its own thing. So plain disagree here.

Because otherwise the discussion becomes incomprehensible.

Not to me. Watch

"Hey I played a inXile shitty game yesterday"
"Ugh, is that another Obsidian shit game? Yah, no thanks"

See? Works fine.

That means that you need one term for all of the above, not 3 different terms to call one kind of RPGs. "Good writer is important in narrative RPGs" is more to the point than "Good writer is important for DARTS, AoD likes and crap games".

How is this any different than describing rogue-likes, ARPGs, SRPGs, and or JRPGs?

Anyway... , so let's stop please.

 

[Gylfi.Fenriz.Conquests]

How are they extremely limited? Have you seen this?

how interesting, dr. Zoidberg. do go on!"

but no, i could like this stuff, it seems fairly pleasant. It's just that there's no interaction. so there's no challenge.

interaction as we know is the manipulation of what you see in front of you, right? Your attributes, the other char's attributes, the environment and finally the story (past-present-future). Interaction is a circle that grows and encompasses.

in all these scenes the circle of interactivity is hardly ever there: you barely manipulate a hint of emotions, yours and the other character's, but you never have a grip on them, they keep slipping because it's fixed writing. The writers don't want to give you control, they're the writers, they show it off. Otherwise we would be able to play with a text parser and, by asking certain things, and by typing "look sad" we would handle the writing and the psychology of the dialogue. And we would walk our character around, to signify perplexity, instead of them doing it whenever they decide it. That'd be a deeper interactivity and control.

then you never affect the environment, when they talk, of course. You can't point & click an object to make it part of the dialogue. The environment doesn't exist, it's cardboard.

Then there's story, obviously the romance doesn't affect it.

So, since you can't interact with anything, there's no problem solving in romance, it's all gratuitous, it's not difficult to succeed in that game romance.

but it's not "narrative"'s fault. Narrative can be fully interactive.

 

[Darkzone]

At this stage, it looks like no edition of D&D is going to ever beat the sales of the original, since all editions have been a bare fraction since. I mean, Diablo vs Temple of Apshai sales numbers difference. With 5e, they managed to get some of the old 2e people to come back and buy new stuff, and that boosted sales, but it's still the same old market where every year more people are leaving the hobby than are coming in. The advent of online stores has allowed a lot of companies to cling to a kind of half-life, where collectors buy pnp stuff that they will never use - much like Steam is for computer games. Everyone I still talk to in the industry talks about it as a readers market, not a players market. And at the same time, the last remaining major companies like Hasbro/WotC have gotten better about reselling the same product over and over to the same people, but a lot of the old dev hands got out while the gettings good.

Unless Generation Z starts picking up pnp (as in buying product with their own money, not just playing with their da), there's a lot more shrinkage to come, too. So, no, there aren't really any huge fanbases to draw on, like there once was with D&D, back when it was a million seller. At this stage, the synergy tie-in just isn't there, so there's no reason to give the first cut of your profit to a bunch of guys not doing any of the work making the game.

And i think that WoC and Hasbro are the one to blame for the decline of interest in DnD, for seveal reasons. And as you have pointed out that they view DnD as a readers market and not a players market:
$10 for a DnD account is / was stupid and they lack the willingness to organize the community for free. They don't give them a nice application for online DnD groups and therefore many DnD groups play on Skype.
They sit on the licenses for the settings with their asses and let all of the best things be forgotten, like Dark Sun and Planscape. ( inXile wanted to get the planescape lizense for Torment, but couldn't )
They do not reach out to the Generation Z with free to play games (TB and RT) on mobile devices and etc.
I could go on, but you see the problem is the lack of adaptation towards the new times. (As you have already pointed out.)
The time of selling rulesets alone is over and the internet has killed it. And those who do not adapt die out.

But there is always hope: Today my preschool kid wanted an easy cRPG on the tablet and the teddy was wearing a chainmail, helmet, magic sword and shild to fight monsters. ( This was NOT my idea. ) So yes i strongly believe that Generation Z will love DnD, if it is given to them.

 

[Irenaeus]

Also 4e was popamole shit based on WoW (lol)

I hear they have some SJW writers in 5e too, that can't be good. Reminds me of Obsidian, btw.

 

[Quillon]

inXile wanted to get the planescape lizense for Torment, but couldn't

Hasn't that been refuted? That InXile hasn't even asked...?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Story is they "tried" but Hasbro or Wizards didn't even want to talk to them. Weird considering Wizards said the license is up for using. Either somebody is lying or inXile are just not interesting enough for Wizards.
I kinda doubt Fargo would've wanted to pay the license fees but I also can see how Wizards/Hasbro can be jackasses who wanted a popamole game instead.

 

[Fairfax]

inXile wanted to get the planescape lizense for Torment, but couldn't

Hasn't that been refuted? That InXile hasn't even asked...?

Not exactly:

Ha ha. Remember when Fargo announced the Numanuma as the game's setting and said that they tried to negotiate with WoTC on Planescape but were dismissed. And then some wizard's guy shown up and said that there was no any negotiating attempt from inXile at all?

Ah, maybe it's for the better after all. What a fiasco...

The WOTC guys didn't say there was no offer:

It turns out, however, Wizards of the Coast wasn't against the idea of licensing Planescape at all - or so it told me.

"We would absolutely consider licensing out Planescape, or any of our other great D&D IPs, if we were approached with a proposal," Wizards of the Coast told us through its presumably bushy beard.

"We often get proposals and are actively pursuing opportunities to make great digital D&D experiences.

"Brian [Fargo] suggested Baldur's Gate 3 had proven difficult in the past before we regained our digital rights, so, that probably didn't help the situation."

The last quote is just the guy being polite. He's basically saying "we are willing to license Planescape, we just don't want to do business with him". This is because Fargo was Interplay's CEO when Hasbro sued them for unpaid royalties for the first time.

The weird part is that they said Fargo himself brought up the BG3 situation, but that only happened after Fargo left the company. It's possible he fucked that up by not explaining the story correctly and getting the blame for no reason.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

in this day and age if you want to see real innovation and actually building games to their target audience look to boardgames, specifically IMO wargames from people like MMP, GMT etc...they listen, they innovate, they create more and more single player games, and they continue to keep and even add complexity as well as constantly improving materials, rules and ways to learn and play the games.

Board wargaming is has truly innovated and made their games increasingly better in every aspect. Computer games continue to degenerate and their creators seem to not even know how or why their first games were popular as they continue to go careening wildly in the wrong direction. Its really sort of bizarre actually how seemingly unaware and disconnected some of these developers seem to be. I can't explain it.