Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[Aenra]

Deaf ears and all, but..

In theory, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean if you ever day-dreamed of being say, a wizard when you were young, i bet you didn't 'pause' your fantasy every 10 minutes, did you?
"O.K., now i will add one point to my intellect and 'save' me". "I will have level 3 fireballs usable now!".
No; you just.. larped it in your head, something continuous, organic, with some basis on your current reality (verisimilar). Maybe you imagined of having found an artifact or equipment, maybe coming upon or stealing a grimoire, absorbing another's soul/powers and so on.

So in terms of actual RPing, i don't see a problem with this. Again, theoretically. Just because we're used to number crunchers doesn't mean they are the way to go about this.

Now, if Tim and Co end up fucking it up in practice, different story.
But unless you all know something i don't, said practice is some years away; so why all the bitching?
You could just as well have a complex combat/learning system but no stat numbers. Or, as he mentions, being able to hit most enemies despite your thac0 without dumbing anything down. Hit and 'win' don't have to be synonymous. Maybe you will need a higher skillset, maybe better equipment, maybe both; for some enemies. In a non-scaled, hand-placed NPCs RPG, i don't see what the problem is if you have some/most NPCs "hittable". You can hit them, yes; doen't mean you can defeat them.

So again, i'd personally wait.

 

[Delbaeth]

 

[Infinitron]

In summary, I think it's clear that Tim and Leonard's game will very much be a streamlined, "newschool" sort of RPG.

A lot of things you've listed here appeared in V:TMB.

CtH depending on player's skill rather than stats;
non-linear approach to quests;
reactivity based on character's background, stats, or skills;
antagonist being common guy treated and manipulated by NPCs accordingly..

Less complexity in character sheet is a bad news, I'd take any game similar to V:TMB anytime though. Such a flawed gem!

VTMB itself could have been viewed as a huge betrayal by an audience conditioned to view Troika as an isometric RPG dev, but I guess things were different back then. (Or were they?)

 

[Aenra]

VTMB itself could have been viewed as a huge betrayal by an audience conditioned to view Troika as an isometric RPG dev

Bullshit. A good RPG was and is a good RPG for most folks.
People were happy they got it, people would have been even happier if it was more polished.

(individual preferences, especially when so strong and specific, are not a valid indicator for what other 'people like')

edit: btw, i did get your point; i said bullshit because i know there are people that actually -did- think like that.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I am not sure what that "first attack always hits" principle means in the context of an action-RPG where he also says aiming is determined by player skill anyway.

What action RPGs are better with player skill for aiming? That's also dumb. Maybe first person crap like Oblibian?
Diablo and clones are action RPGs and they'd definitely not be better if aiming was based on player skill.

 

[jungl]

I swear all old video game developers are having worse ideas as they age. fallout 1-2 UI is clean and easy to understand. I had no trouble figuring it out when I was 14 or whatever. Arcanum is sloppy and does suck but that how it is going to be when you have a bunch of useless filler skills/spells/talents. Fallout 4 ui is shit navigating through it is a slog and so many useless perks that make no sense considering how much stat points they require.

 

[Darkzone]

Dead Gods is quite good and in my opinion the last good thing from Monte. T.Cain is going more for a "Torment: TheCodex on NoNumbers (TToN) with the incarnation of sour the entropy of cRPGs".

 

[Infinitron]

I am not sure what that "first attack always hits" principle means in the context of an action-RPG where he also says aiming is determined by player skill anyway.

What action RPGs are better with player skill for aiming? That's also dumb. Maybe first person crap like Oblibian?
Diablo and clones are action RPGs and they'd definitely not be better if aiming was based on player skill.

I mean first person/third person action-RPGs, not isometric hack-and-slash Diablo clones (which I don't think are called action-RPGs as much these days)

 

[Delbaeth]

Those who want a more classical experience from Obsidian will have to look towards Pillars of Eternity II.

Don Mattrick about Xbox One's launch (2013): "We have a product for people who can't get online, its called Xbox 360"

 

[santino27]

The problem with heroes is that time and reality always bring them down.

 

[Delbaeth]

Dead Gods is quite good and in my opinion the last good thing from Monte.

I agree, funny that it was the very last thing labeled Planescape I bought (to be fair, it was the very last Planescape thing I didn't have except Ral Partha miniatures and the rest of Blood Wars CCG) and thus, the very last D&D book I bought.
An end on many levels.

T.Cain is going more for a "Torment: TheCodex on NoNumbers (TToN) with the incarnation of sour the entropy of cRPGs".

I wasn't angry at Obsidian developing Amored Warfare, sometimes you have to eat. But if they are going to Beth's levels...
It could turn to something not bad, but since VTMB, there were 2 ES, 2 Beth's Fallout, although NV, 4 ME and 3 DA.
I would be ok with something more like Alpha Protocol though.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I mean first person/third person action-RPGs, not isometric hack-and-slash Diablo clones

I was asking what Tim Cain meant. I assume the same thing as you, but you never know.

(which I don't think are called action-RPGs as much these days)

Even though they often have more stats, skills and more character development than any Oblibian, let alone Skyrim.
But they're not RPGs really, because you don't get to choose whether to save A or B and then find out you can actually do both for the ultimate RPG experience!

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

was never so appropriate

 

[Paul_cz]

All this dooming and glooming, if there is one fucking dev on this planet that gets automatic benefit of the doubt (until proven otherwise), it is Tim Cain.

 

[FeelTheRads]

That's about it for hope from the old ones, eh?

Anything else except the Ultima Underworld and Gold Box vapourwares?

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

I like when some games hide numbers (Nahlakh, King of Dragon Pass)
I dislike when some games shove numbers in my face at inappropriate moments* (Morrowind, Crusader Kings 2)

And that's all games I do like.

#IStandWithTim

Spoiler

(* diplomacy in Morrowind and any CYOA decision in CK2)

 

[Wizfall]

Painful video to watch.
For the lazy just look the segment starting at 00:30 when it said Fallout 1 character creation screen was awful, painful i said...
And his Fallout 4 critics (still too complicated my god) and geometry idea...unless you have tons of data to "digest" his geometric idea is more confusing than simple numericals values.

His only good point is path of Exile critics, otherwise very wrong interpretation of Einstein quote IMO

Why can't we have a cRPG game developer behaving like the equivalent of AC/DC : always do the same king of thing you are known for doing well over and over and over and over because it's GOOD and it WORKS (if you like that of course).
Now i know game industry and music industry is not the same but still...just use the improvement of technology to make things better (enhance interface, increase options, improve graphics) but don't mess with the fundamentals !

 

[Roguey]

VTMB itself could have been viewed as a huge betrayal by an audience conditioned to view Troika as an isometric RPG dev, but I guess things were different back then. (Or were they?)

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/vampire-bloodlines-interview.1510/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...views-vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines.2007/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/vampire-bloodlines-previewed-at-echoplayer.3430/

A bit of concern, but no doom and gloom pessimism. It was still a PC-exclusive from the people who made Arcanum after all (though Classic Codex's disdain for Deus Ex is pretty funny).

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Ah well. Guess there's still Whalenought, Styg, Cleve and VD. And J_C.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And his Fallout 4 critics (still too complicated my god) and geometry idea...unless you have tons of data to "digest" his geometric idea is more confusing than simple numericals values.

Was thinking that actually.
Just sounds like one more of those ideas that are currently in fashion and that are supposed to make something easier but end up making it more confusing and awkward to use for everyone: see many UI "innovations" in software and games.

2 > 1 is too complicated. How about we represent 2 by a circle and 1 by a triangle!!!!!!!!!!! And then, get this, we say that the circle is better than the triangle and force the player through 5 hours of tutorials to learn which shape is better than the other!!!!!!! Duuuuuuuuuuude innovation!!!!

 

[Marten Broadcloak]

VTMB itself could have been viewed as a huge betrayal by an audience conditioned to view Troika as an isometric RPG dev, but I guess things were different back then. (Or were they?)

Of course the location of the camera is not the problem here, and there can be great CRPGs in third-person. That doesn't prevent a chill down our spine when we hear Tim Cain is working on a TPS/FPS console game.

 

[naossano]

Did Tim and Feargus switched bodies ?

 

[Darkzone]

Dead Gods is quite good and in my opinion the last good thing from Monte.

I agree, funny that it was the very last thing labeled Planescape I bought (to be fair, it was the very last Planescape thing I didn't have except Ral Partha miniatures and the rest of Blood Wars CCG) and thus, the very last D&D book I bought.
An end on many levels.

Be glad if your journey ended with "Dead Gods" and not "Faction War". "Faction War" (1998) was released later than "Dead Gods" (1997). I view "Dead Gods" as an glorious end of this "Silver age of DnD". Perhaps "Dead Gods" would be good as a background for a cRPG. "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" is viewed by many as the better module, but i think that this is only because RtToEE is more Tolkienesque.

T.Cain is going more for a "Torment: TheCodex on NoNumbers (TToN) with the incarnation of sour the entropy of cRPGs".

I wasn't angry at Obsidian developing Amored Warfare, sometimes you have to eat. But if they are going to Beth's levels...
It could turn to something not bad, but since VTMB, there were 2 ES, 2 Beth's Fallout, although NV, 4 ME and 3 DA. I would be ok with something more like Alpha Protocol though.

I have also no problems with other kind of games if they are made by cRPGs developers, like Obsidian. But i hope for an interesting isometric cRPG with a good RPG System, a very good story, interesting NPCs and Enemies. And everything (AoD and Underrail excluded) was a let down since NWN2 MTB. Wasteland 2 was boring and i never had the feeling of playing an RPG. PoE was totaly uninteresting and the system feels for me like a MMORPG system. DOS has only a fun combat system. TToN is also not giving me a feel of playing an interesting RPG, perhaps this is due the writing or the Numenera System. And now T.Cain is speaking about 2 triangles and their permutations for RPG character stats.

 

[Jedi Exile]

First MCA, now Cain... it appears the only former BIS dev who want to make proper rpgs is Sawyer now.

Josh looks really sexy, too, after he started biking and lost weight.

A lot of things you've listed here appeared in V:TMB.

And now I am thinking about new Vampire-like game by Tim and Leon. Bloodlines was very different from Arcanum, true, but it remained an RPG. I think it was the reason for its commercial failure, because they were trying to market it as FPS (Source engine and stuff), but it was a very different game, not about shooting things, but about role-playing, where you stats and character background, and how you play, really mattered. If Tim delivers the same experience, even with his crazy experiments and that geometrical stuff I don't really get right now, it will be great.

 

[Ezeekiel]

There is no reason to experiment on this number stuff in this particular manner. A solution looking for a problem.

Actual mechanics have not progressed properly (regressed, if anything). Writing is decidedly suboptimal. Characters are whiny superpowered millenials. Bugs abound. Potential is wasted across the board. Difficulty and reward mechanisms are poorly implemented or not understood at all.
etc.

The best games of bygone days already did various things well. Instead of building upon this (trying to fix the weakpoints and slowly improving the strengths if possible) people try to re-invent the wheel constantly with new but completely derivative settings, goofy mechanics noone asked for, boring filler shit in much greater amounts than we had in the past (mostly), poor design decisions when it comes to world size vs. actual content vs scope of the game, camera perspective and controls vs what sort of game it actually is and what have you.