Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[Latelistener]

There is no need to be upset.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJDNkVDGM_s

It was known long ago that it is a console-oriented RPG.

 

[Sacred82]

The triangle system sounds incredibly shitty.


What's the point in increasing critical damage, you have to start pretty low, making crits unexciting, or start high and kill people dead for 3000% damage, what's the point. Even worse actually when crit damage is a flat number as working that number upwards also seems slow and unexciting.

 

[HoboForEternity]

well he has spoken. the incline is a lie. salvation is all for naught, let the industry died a slow death now. fuck everything.

 

[MF]

I'm disappointed. He was really on to something with Arcanum's system -not so much with the implementation- but it looks like he's considering it a failure.

 

[Raapys]

Dumbing down evolves.

 

[Hellion]

"Geometric shapes" ROFL. Reminds me of a Kindergartener's book or something, "Timmy, open your book and circle with your pen every Triangle you see on this page. No Timmy, those are SQUARES, I want you to select the TRIANGLES, the TRIANGLES Timmy. YES TIMMY GOOD JOB".

For example, he says the player's first attack against an enemy should always hit.

This principle could be exploited on so many levels.

 

[CyberWhale]

Many action-RPGs are better without stats at all, though. If you watch the talk, it doesn't sound so much like he wants to "hide" numbers but take them away and replace them with something more discrete/number. The geometric shape system he talks about (he uses triangles in his example) divides character attributes into "Good", "OK" and "Yucky", not a whole spectrum of behind-the-scenes numbers.

He also mentions perks during the talk, but says he doesn't like when you have an overwhelming selection of them to choose from all at once.

The numbers are there behind the scenes (you can't program with shapes), you just can't see what it is.

I guess it doesn't really matter if the numbers only go from 1-5 but it does with larger amounts.

Having attributes range from 1 to 5 would be acceptable (most of the uneven number ones didn't usually do jack shit) if the underlying system was deep and reactive. For a real-time game it could be done on a completely deterministic level and still be deep and compelling if done right.

 

[Infinitron]

I am not sure what that "first attack always hits" principle means in the context of an action-RPG where he also says aiming is determined by player skill anyway.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Bummer

 

[Lurker King]

Many action games are better without stats at all

Fixed for accuracy, shill.

 

[Lurker King]

To whom is Fallout 1 overwhelming? How retarded do you have to be not to get some simple stats and skills? I guess such a faggot would die if he tried to play Underrail, instant mind blown! Better put warning labels on non-accessible games for these dorito manboons, millions of lives are at risk!

But character building is not player skill! LOL

I am not sure what that "first attack always hits" principle means in the context of an action-RPG where he also says aiming is determined by player skill anyway.

It means that will be a popamole game. That's what it means.

 

[Davaris]

Fuck, all the old developers got brain rot

If it can happen to John Carpenter, it can happen to any one.

Where's your messiah now, Codex?

First MCA, then Tim Cain. Where is your god now?

...There are no saints in heaven. There are no saints on earth. There are no ghosts in heaven. There are no ghosts on earth. There are no gods in heaven. There are no gods on earth....

And there's no i in team.

 

[Infinitron]

Since I'm not sure people understood what I meant by my description, here are Tim's slides of his geometric shape attribute visualization idea:

It's not "replace each number with a different shape".

 

[Grauken]

That's a developmental fallacy. I remember all the 90tie games when they thought doing everything with little intuitive icons would be better than text buttons. Turns out most of those icons where never as intuitive as simple text buttons (e.g. a disk for saving doesn't make sense for kids these days). I wager that the shapes would confuse our gameplaying dumb nut audience far more than plain numbers

 

[Infinitron]

That's a developmental fallacy. I remember all the 90tie games when they thought doing everything with little intuitive icons would be better than text buttons. Turns out most of those icons where never as intuitive as simple text buttons (e.g. a disk for saving doesn't make sense for kids these days). I wager that the shapes would confuse our gameplaying dumb nut audience far more than plain numbers

That's not what he's doing here.

 

[an Administrator]

He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes.

You can have both visualized attributes and numbers at the same time.

 

[Grauken]

That's a developmental fallacy. I remember all the 90tie games when they thought doing everything with little intuitive icons would be better than text buttons. Turns out most of those icons where never as intuitive as simple text buttons (e.g. a disk for saving doesn't make sense for kids these days). I wager that the shapes would confuse our gameplaying dumb nut audience far more than plain numbers

That's not what he's doing here.

He's trying to streamline information by repackaging it in a visual style he thinks it's easier to fathom, which I think is a fallacy. It's not

 

[Thonius]

Looks like Tim lived long enough to become a villain.
As for graphs he probably meant this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_chart , http://i.imgur.com/i3Ms9kU.jpg although how is that easier for regular dorito chewing retards is beyond me.
Maybe he and his boyfriend got themselves in some pyramid scheme? Or into illuminati staff.

 

[Infinitron]

That's a developmental fallacy. I remember all the 90tie games when they thought doing everything with little intuitive icons would be better than text buttons. Turns out most of those icons where never as intuitive as simple text buttons (e.g. a disk for saving doesn't make sense for kids these days). I wager that the shapes would confuse our gameplaying dumb nut audience far more than plain numbers

That's not what he's doing here.

He's trying to streamline information by repackaging it in a visual style he thinks it's easier to fathom, which I think is a fallacy. It's not

I think it's a fallacy when it's a one-to-one replacement of a text label with a shape. Not when you're creating a fundamanentallly new way of organizing the information for which a geometric shape is the most natural means of visualizing.

Is it dumbed down? Yes, probably. Less intuitive? Not necessarily.

 

[CyberWhale]

That's a developmental fallacy. I remember all the 90tie games when they thought doing everything with little intuitive icons would be better than text buttons. Turns out most of those icons where never as intuitive as simple text buttons (e.g. a disk for saving doesn't make sense for kids these days). I wager that the shapes would confuse our gameplaying dumb nut audience far more than plain numbers

That's not what he's doing here.

Having additional visual cues is definitely easier to grasp for both retards and sapiens alike, but a straight line (usually adopted as health/stamina bars in video games) is enough. It's not a coincidence that it's so universally adopted and that even shitty ARPG's like Mass Effect/Alpha Protocol use them for (combat) skills.

EDIT: Color is also p. persistent with red signifying lower and green higher states of being.

 

[Lurker King]

Fuck, all the old developers got brain rot

It's a mixture of becoming burnout, leftard and sellout. Moral corruption in so many levels.

 

[DeepOcean]

7 ways to try to hide you are making an RPG for people that don't like RPGs.

 

[Jedi Exile]

To be honest, I think it's good that Tim wants to experiment again. I am just not sure how it will end...

 

[Grauken]

7 ways to try to hide you are making an RPG for people that don't like RPGs.

That's probably it, he doesn't want to admit he's trying to make games for retards

 

[Thonius]

That's a developmental fallacy. I remember all the 90tie games when they thought doing everything with little intuitive icons would be better than text buttons. Turns out most of those icons where never as intuitive as simple text buttons (e.g. a disk for saving doesn't make sense for kids these days). I wager that the shapes would confuse our gameplaying dumb nut audience far more than plain numbers

That's not what he's doing here.

He's trying to streamline information by repackaging it in a visual style he thinks it's easier to fathom, which I think is a fallacy. It's not

I think it's a fallacy when it's a one-to-one replacement of a text label with a shape. Not when you're creating a fundamanentallly new way of organizing the information for which a geometric shape is the most natural means of visualizing.

Is it dumbed down? Yes, probably. Less intuitive? I don't think so.

That's a fucking gimmick at most. "It's gonna change a whole genre!" hur durr radial charts and shit.
Yeah, like typical console retard will see this charts and get a boner on rpg's for life. Sure Tim as you say.
Sawyer need to make his history turn based rpg now! Till feargus and co starts dripping saliva and start kickstarter for jenga rpg.