Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[Infinitron]

The mistake is "Steep Learning Curve", not just "Learning Curve". That's reason to believe that he's really talking about character creation specifically, not all character development throughout the game.

 

[Fry]

I'm choosing to focus on the positive.

The true decline in modern RPGs is that they've turned into bad movies. Endless cut scenes, little actual choice, bloated storytelling, etc. Tim's focus on non-linearity and reactivity could still make a great game, even if the stats system is a bit basic.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The mistake is "Steep Learning Curve", not "No Learning Curve". There's reason to believe that he's talking about character creation specifically, not all character development throughout the game.

Yeah, what I'm saying is that it seems like too much trouble for something that can be solved simpler and faster with pre-generated characters. When a game has them you know you can finish the game with them (supposedly they are play-tested) so, if you don't want to go through character creation you click on a pre-generated character and off you go.
So that's why I don't think he wants it limited to that.

Could also be a case of just wanting to re-invent the wheel... what I mentioned earlier about modern trends in UIs where they change stuff for the purpose of making it easier but end up making it just awkward for everyone.

 

[l3loodAngel]

No character creation/progression = no curve. Problem solved, now can I R have un percentage of der royalties hi hi?

 

[Roguey]

I'm actually not afraid of Tim implementing all that crap into Obsidian's games. We have the right guy at the design director position at Obsidian:

If Tyranny's anything to go by, Josh will provide feedback but he won't/can't outright tell them not to do something.

I'm choosing to focus on the positive.

The true decline in modern RPGs is that they've turned into bad movies. Endless cut scenes, little actual choice, bloated storytelling, etc. Tim's focus on non-linearity and reactivity could still make a great game, even if the stats system is a bit basic.

Have you been in a coma the past few years? The Bioware RPG is dead. Volourn mourns its loss.

 

[J_C]

Compare that to DnD where a new player would have a harder time understanding what the different effects of 9 DEX vs 12 DEX would be for her Ranger.

I have played every IE games, some of them several times, and I couldn't tell you what is the exact effect of 12 Dex vx 9 Dex on a ranger. I assume it has something to do with hit accuracy.

But it doesn't matter, because with the exception of the super hardcore RPGs (which are very rare), you can beat every game with a very basic understanding of the rules. Games are not rocket science.

 

[Infinitron]

The mistake is "Steep Learning Curve", not "No Learning Curve". There's reason to believe that he's talking about character creation specifically, not all character development throughout the game.

Yeah, what I'm saying is that it seems like too much trouble for something that can be solved simpler and faster with pre-generated characters. When a game has them you know you can finish the game with them (supposedly they are play-tested) so, if you don't want to go through character creation you click on a pre-generated character and off you go.
So that's why I don't think he wants it limited to that.

Could also be a case of just wanting to re-invent the wheel... what I mentioned earlier about modern trends in UIs where they change stuff for the purpose of making it easier but end up making it just awkward for everyone.

I think it's time to realize that RPG developers aren't going to design super-complex character systems and then make it okay for dumb people by adding pre-generated characters and auto-levelling. Everybody wants to drive the car, nobody wants to ride in the back.

 

[Roguey]

I have played every IE games, some of them several times, and I couldn't tell you what is the exact effect of 12 Dex vx 9 Dex on a ranger. I assume it has something to do with hit accuracy.

With 2nd edition D&D, there's no difference whatsoever. Dex 7-14 is a dead zone. It's a bad system.

 

[Excidium II]

I have played every IE games, some of them several times, and I couldn't tell you what is the exact effect of 12 Dex vx 9 Dex on a ranger. I assume it has something to do with hit accuracy.

With 2nd edition D&D, there's no difference whatsoever. Dex 7-14 is a dead zone. It's a bad system.

not if u check those stats.

 

[J_C]

I have played every IE games, some of them several times, and I couldn't tell you what is the exact effect of 12 Dex vx 9 Dex on a ranger. I assume it has something to do with hit accuracy.

With 2nd edition D&D, there's no difference whatsoever. Dex 7-14 is a dead zone. It's a bad system.

True, but that's not the point. I wouldn't know the exact difference between a 4 DEX and a 16 DEX, but it is not important to play the game. If someone has a general understanding of the rules, he can play most RPGs.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Hey asshats I have an idea for you to capitalize on. How about you create a game where:

1. There are no stats.
2. It plays like Quake/CS.
3. There is characters and dialogues.
4. The character does not get any stat improvements, but gains super powers like in Crysis suit or some X-men stuff.
5. The character gets weapon improvements.
6. Skill are determined by usage.
7. It has C&C.

And you have all the innovashun with you and are making sure that when that button gets pressed Something Awesome will happen!

 

[Excidium II]

How about make some other type of game if u don't like the things that a crpg fan looks forward to.

(rhetorical question, we all know those people make crpgs because games in this genre are generally held to very low standards)

 

[J_C]

Hey asshats I have an idea for you to capitalize on. How about you create a game where:

1. There are no stats.
2. It plays like Quake/CS.
3. There is characters and dialogues.
4. The character does not get any stat improvements, but gains super powers like in Crysis suit or some X-men stuff.
5. The character gets weapon improvements.
6. Skill are determined by usage.
7. It has C&C.

And you have all the innovashun with you and are making sure that when that button gets pressed Something Awesome will happen!

So, Bioshock?

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I think it's time to realize that RPG developers aren't going to design super-complex character systems and then make it okay for dumb people by adding pre-generated characters and auto-levelling. Everybody wants to drive the car, nobody wants to ride in the back.

I don't know man, I would have thought the same would apply to shit like story mode and that seems to be spreading. Seems a lot of people like avoiding any challenge and devs are keen to cater to them.

 

[Excidium II]

Yes but the tards don't wanna play on story mode. They want normal to be story mode so they don't feel bad about their lack of commitment to the game.

People don't like being treated like scrubs. They want to be good but without effort.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I think it's time to realize that RPG developers aren't going to design super-complex character systems and then make it okay for dumb people by adding pre-generated characters and auto-levelling. Everybody wants to drive the car, nobody wants to ride in the back.

I don't understand what is this supposed to mean? Why not? It's not enough to give food to dumb people, you also have to force feed it to them?

And what's more likely, that Cain's game going to have a super-complex character system but it will just be "easy" to create a character or just that it's all going to be "easy mode"?

Yes but the tards don't wanna play on story mode. They want normal to be storymode so they don't feel bad about their lack of commitment to the game.

People don't like being treated like scrubs.

Yep, that's true. I've seen people complaining about the highest difficulty levels in games. "What do you mean I can't beat the game on the highest difficulty? It's obviously unfair and bad design!"

 

[Roguey]

Hey asshats I have an idea for you to capitalize on. How about you create a game where:

1. There are no stats.
2. It plays like Quake/CS.
3. There is characters and dialogues.
4. The character does not get any stat improvements, but gains super powers like in Crysis suit or some X-men stuff.
5. The character gets weapon improvements.
6. Skill are determined by usage.
7. It has C&C.

And you have all the innovashun with you and are making sure that when that button gets pressed Something Awesome will happen!

It's difficult to do all these things well. Horizon Zero Dawn was very well-received, but it has very little C&C to speak of because combat had a much higher priority.

 

[Excidium II]

Hey asshats I have an idea for you to capitalize on. How about you create a game where:

1. There are no stats.
2. It plays like Quake/CS.
3. There is characters and dialogues.
4. The character does not get any stat improvements, but gains super powers like in Crysis suit or some X-men stuff.
5. The character gets weapon improvements.
6. Skill are determined by usage.
7. It has C&C.

And you have all the innovashun with you and are making sure that when that button gets pressed Something Awesome will happen!

It's difficult to do all these things well. Horizon Zero Dawn was very well-received, but it has very little C&C to speak of because combat had a much higher priority.

Just label it as a CRPG then you don't need to do things well.

 

[Valky]

• Mistake #1 - Steep Learning Curves: Tim thinks character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex. He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes.
• Mistake #2 - Letting Math Trump Psychology: Revealing the influence of the years he spent developing Wildstar, Tim wants to develop mechanics that are psychologically satisfying and addictive, even at the expense of mathematical elegance. For example, he says the player's first attack against an enemy should always hit even if his overall hit percentage is the same regardless, and that rather than allow players to increase their critical hit chance, they should only be allowed to increase their critical hit damage.
• Mistake #3 - Conflating Player Skill With Character Skill: This one will be familiar if you've watched some of Josh Sawyer's talks. Aiming and hitting in an action-RPG should not be determined by character stats. On the other hand, things like the impact of recoil can be affected by stats, as well as the aforementioned critical hit damage.
• Mistake #4 - Misunderstanding Randomness: Here Tim lays out his frustration with the sorts of people who can't believe they could miss a 95% chance-to-hit attack three times in a row. His conclusion is that when people talk about "randomness", they often mean selecting a token rather than rolling a dice (ie, events can't repeat themselves).
• Mistake #5 - Forcing Linearity: This one is pretty self-explanatory. Tim says games are not movies, using Fallout's Tandi rescue scenario with its multiple solutions as an example of the sort of non-linearity he prizes.
• Mistake #6 - Being Non-Reactive: Tim seems particularly interested in the sort of reactivity where characters in the world have different dispositions based on your character's background, clothing and attributes, as seen in Arcanum. He also loves having different end slides based on the player's choices in the game, using Temple of Elemental Evil's evil ending as an example.
• Mistake #7 - Telling Horrible Stories: Tim uses this to emphasize again that games are not movies. Not every character in a game has to be important or advance the plot. Tropes likes the Chosen One protagonist and amnesiac protagonist are tiresome and should be discarded.

I don't even know Tim anymore.

 

[Thonius]

His first point is retarded. I didn't understand anything about that triangle style system, but I can understand what numbers mean. I know that a character with 5 strength is stronger than one with 3 strength. Why can't people understand that numbers actually help to understand how a system works. Putting arbitrary shapes and colors will just leave me scratching my head.

Oh, and Fallout 1's character creator was super easy to understand if you have an IQ higher than 70. For fucks sake, every line can be clicked on and it will be explained in the bottom right corner.

Also his comment at the end about they were laughing about 1st edition AD&D being bad because for example, women strength was limited lower than men. - Umm, maybe because physically women ARE weaker than men.

I bet all who have some brains does like me - at char creation screen i dumb all stats to see absolute minimum and then boost one to absolute maximum. Whoa-la you know where's your, for example 10 strengths, sit on the spectrum.

 

[Thonius]

Redditers are making fun of the codex; this cannot stand!

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/66vuqa/tim_cain_cocreator_of_fallout_at_reboot_develop/

Ha holy shit.

Spoiler

"That's the Codex for you. They have a unique culture there. Good as a resource, but I wouldn't go there for commentary."

And few moments later comes a nazi mods.

Spoiler

Unfortunately your comment has been removed because your Reddit account is less than a day old OR your comment karma is negative. This filter is in effect to minimize spam and trolling from new accounts. Moderators will not put your comment back up.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

 

[mondblut]

Many action-RPGs are better without stats at all, though.

Many "action-RPGs" better stop pretending they are RPGs.

 

[Alienman]

If the game has inventory it is a rpg nowadays.

 

[mondblut]

All this dooming and glooming, if there is one fucking dev on this planet that gets automatic benefit of the doubt (until proven otherwise), it is Tim Cain.

Not any longer.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

How about you stuff some numberless geometric objects up your ass, Tim.