Interview Tim Cain speaks on Temple of Elemental Evil

[Saint_Proverbius]

Troika Games - high quality, ZERO innovation.

Troika doesn't have to innovate. No one's caught up to their mechanics standards they pioneered back in 1997. In fact, most CRPGs have gotten worse since then rather than catching up to what Troika did, so it's not like there's much in the way of CRPG mechanics competition for them.

Actually, it sounds more like "Baldur's Gate" with turn-based combat.

Actually, your post just sounds like "More Pointless Angst" with a few snips from the interview.

However, if you want to say something utterly silly like, "This sounds like BG with TB combat", perhaps you should read the interview again, this time shoot for comprehension.

Look at what he said about alignment for example. Tell me how the hell that's even remotely like Baldur's Gate where alignment was little more than something to take up space on the character sheet. Instead, alignment motivations are a focus of how the plot is handled in this game, it's something tangable to the player and to the plot.

Tell me where BG's speech skill was. Tell me where the quests in BG that had multiple ways of doing them were.

Game shipping in June? They are aware that summer is the time of the worst sales during the year, right?

Odd, considering the summer time is when the industry typically releases their BIG GAMES, the ones that sell volumes.

Oh, I'm positive the game will have a top-notch quality in it, excellent design and whatever. Question is, do you need another D&D game?

The question should be, "Do we need a WELL DESIGNED D&D game?"

Let's face it, most D&D games are nothing more than mindless chop-chop-cast-chop games. Other than PS:T, there really haven't been in good ones in the passed 6-7 years.

Okay, let me rephrase it - what's the point in playing another D&D game? Fun? What is so fun about it?

So, you've played it? Apparently we're reading two different interviews here. What's fun about it? The fact that you can actually be evil in a D&D CRPG for once? You know, evil as in evil, not evil as in being a good guy that saves the world because there's money in it.

Using speech skills that matter, that's always fun. At least, I think it's fun. Maybe you don't? I thought you were the guy that wrote that whole, "Getting through Fallout with Speech" guide.

Well I suppose I will buy it once it will go down in price from $49.99 to ten bucks...

Yeah, because good games by good developers don't need any support.

I don't know who will be doing backgrounds, hopefully not Boyarsky,

And what's wrong with Leon's work?

and I wish it wouldn't require a player to read a gigantic rules book to play it

OMFG! RAEDING! NOOOOOO! I HPOE ITS NICE AND SIMPEL SO I DOANT HAFF TO LERN ANYTHING TO PLAE IT!

, or take ten CDs.

DVD would be my choice.

 

[Briosafreak]

I saw this a while back, as you can see here http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Now Monte-Carlo said two strange things in that thread:

I completely agree that the sheer ugliness of Arcanum was its undoing, despite a great premise and plot. The character development system was, however, not very elegant and overtly complex. But the bottom line is that it was bloody horrible to look at.

Uhh? Since when looks is the important thing in rpg`s? Complex? well, compared to IWD yes, but who wants to compare anything with IWD?...

An interesting dichotomy. People seem to think that "D&D as it was meant to be played" is turn-based but not "Hack 'N' Slash."

Mr Gygax, who jointly invented the game, certainly intended it to be TB and hack 'n' slash.

I will go over to the d20reviews forum and try to invite him here to give his POV on this thorny issue.

O.k. this puzzles me, i have a not so vivid but firm recolection of D&D beeing played in turn-based mode, did anyone played D&D as a H&S in the 80`s? How? This one really confused me, can someone help me figuring out what he means?

 

[Spazmo]

Think a little, kids. How the hell do you play a Pen and Paper game--only human beings, no computers--in real-time? Turn-based is how D&D is meant to be played.

And although Gygax's campaigns may have been hack 'n' slash, that's not all you can do with the modern D&D.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Troika doesn't have to innovate. No one's caught up to their mechanics standards they pioneered back in 1997. In fact, most CRPGs have gotten worse since then rather than catching up to what Troika did, so it's not like there's much in the way of CRPG mechanics competition for them.

So you agree?

Actually, your post just sounds like "More Pointless Angst" with a few snips from the interview.

And I suppose continuous "they're stupid because they're not making FO3" threads are NOT pointless?

However, if you want to say something utterly silly like, "This sounds like BG with TB combat", perhaps you should read the interview again, this time shoot for comprehension.

Okay, massive Dungeons and Dragons RPG in classic setting with prerendered background sounds like "Baldur's Gate" to me, gee I guess I'm a fucking moron!

The question should be, "Do we need a WELL DESIGNED D&D game?"

I am sick of Star Wars games. Not because they are badly designed, but for one reason only - it's beed done before many times over. If you don't feel that way, fine.

So, you've played it? Apparently we're reading two different interviews here. What's fun about it? The fact that you can actually be evil in a D&D CRPG for once? You know, evil as in evil, not evil as in being a good guy that saves the world because there's money in it.

Same review. Except I rolled my eyes when I got to D&D part. Sue me.

Using speech skills that matter, that's always fun. At least, I think it's fun. Maybe you don't? I thought you were the guy that wrote that whole, "Getting through Fallout with Speech" guide.

I did it because I thought it was original, not because I'm in love with adventure games. I do not believe that being able to choose ten different answers instead of one makes the game ten times better.

Yeah, because good games by good developers don't need any support.

I didn't get my computer from Dell, and I'm not paying fifty bucks for a game.

And what's wrong with Leon's work?

Okay, time to show my ignorance :wink: - I do not know whether it was Boyarsky who made 3D backgrounds for Fallout and Arcanum, but they looked pretty bland to me. I think the drawings and 3D models in both games were incredible, and I have a high respect for Leon's work as graphics designer, but I can't say the same for the backgrounds. I guess I'll have to wait and see (the screenshots).

OMFG! RAEDING! NOOOOOO! I HPOE ITS NICE AND SIMPEL SO I DOANT HAFF TO LERN ANYTHING TO PLAE IT!

Yeah, chess is for dummies.

DVD would be my choice.

Thus alienating those players that don't have DVD-ROM yet. Troika is not exactly id Software to make users upgrade their machines. Again, it's their call.

 

[Spazmo]

Okay, massive Dungeons and Dragons RPG in classic setting with prerendered background sounds like "Baldur's Gate" to me, gee I guess I'm a fucking moron!

You're looking at the wrong part of BG. Baldur's Gate was hopelessly linear. TTOE won't be, provided that everything in that interview is true, which we will assume for the purpose of this argument. Baldur's Gate had a very poor implementation of evil. TTOE won't. Baldur's Gate had dull, real-time combat. TTOE won't. And the list goes on.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Funny how people love to throw the term innovative around. Fallout the FPS would be the heart of innovation, but this isn't. To tell the truth, some of what Tim said sounded like the most genuinely innovative stuff I've heard in a while. I don't think I've ever heard of choosing a party alignment from the beginning that the game then gears itself around. Neither do I recall having an interactive introduction tailored to your choices to give your party a reason to be there. Both are highly innovative because they are new ideas that haven't been done before to my knowledge, and if it works out it might end up being copied endlessly by other games. Then other people will probably be called supreme innovators because they ported the ideas into Quake 4 or whatever. People need to learn new words rather than regurgitating old Enron commercials.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Okay, I'll do a research on the campaign. But if it involves orcs in any way, then fuck it.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

So you agree?

Actually given that they're sticking with the alignment system being fixed, per D&D rules, and using different starting areas for each to gear up the whole alignment based movitation thing.. Well, I'd actually call that innovative, Artie! It hasn't been done yet. It's something new! That's what innovation is!

And I suppose continuous "they're stupid because they're not making FO3" threads are NOT pointless?

I think you misread what I've been saying for.. uh.. the ENTIRE LAST YEAR. I'd rather NOT see BIS make FO3 until they've proven they can actually make a good CRPG. That's what I've been saying, so tell me, how the bloody hell did you get, "They're stupid because they're not making FO3" out of that?

About the closest thing I've even said to that was I think they're underestimating the demand for a FO3, and that it would have probably sold a hell of a lot better than their "SLAM DUNK!", Icewind Dale 2. Now, considering they had to report a loss in the 3rd Quarter, even though those figured include the initial month's worth of sales on that game, I think it's safe to say it wasn't the SLAM DUNK they thought it would be.

Okay, massive Dungeons and Dragons RPG in classic setting with prerendered background sounds like "Baldur's Gate" to me, gee I guess I'm a fucking moron!

Hey, that last part is the first thing in this thread you've said that makes any sense.

I am sick of Star Wars games. Not because they are badly designed, but for one reason only - it's beed done before many times over. If you don't feel that way, fine.

If someone made a really, really good Star Wars game, I'd play it. Why? Because I enjoy good games, not because I don't like Star Wars or that Star Wars has been done to death.

And before you even bring up me saying that the fantasy setting is over used for CRPGs, that's an entirely different matter. There are gobs of RTS games set in many other settings than Star Wars, dispite there being a Force Commander. Same thing with space sims, first person shooters, and every other genre that Star Wars has a game done in.

Same review. Except I rolled my eyes when I got to D&D part. Sue me.

I did it because I thought it was original, not because I'm in love with adventure games. I do not believe that being able to choose ten different answers instead of one makes the game ten times better.

One of the big reasons it was original is because not many games allow for it. It's a good thing that games have options like these, so your character can be pacifistic, don't you think?

I didn't get my computer from Dell, and I'm not paying fifty bucks for a game.

Refer back to the fucking moron section.

Yeah, chess is for dummies.

And yet there's large volumes written on the subject of chess.

Thus alienating those players that don't have DVD-ROM yet. Troika is not exactly id Software to make users upgrade their machines. Again, it's their call.

It's time to update your calender, Ap. It's nearly 2003 now. That argument belongs back in the 1990s.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Actually given that they're sticking with the alignment system being fixed, per D&D rules, and using different starting areas for each to gear up the whole alignment based movitation thing.. Well, I'd actually call that innovative, Artie! It hasn't been done yet. It's something new! That's what innovation is!

I'll be the judge of that!

And yet there's large volumes written on the subject of chess.

...that are completely unnecessary to play. Chess rules can easily fit on a piece of paper. By the wayt, just how complex 3d edition rules are?

It's time to update your calender, Ap. It's nearly 2003 now. That argument belongs back in the 1990s.

Number of computer software titles released exclusively for DVD is very small. Now, DVD movie players are different, and I just might buy me a DVD-ROM if rent stores switch to DVD completely.

 

[MF]

I'm going to play clue police here.
Just a few things I have to say to Ap_Jolly.

- Your Geforce 2 Card is not chocking on Arcanum in anyway. Arcanum is not graphically intensive at all. It is rather CPU intensive, but I only notice that on my dual 400 mhz machine. Thinking hardware acceleration for a 3D card will greatly improve the performance of a 2D tile based game with only a set lightning functions to adress your Geforce 2 with is rather stupid. I'd sooner call it ignorant than stupid, but seeing as how you claim to be the judge of what innovation is, I'll claim to know the difference between stupid and ignorant.

- Arcanum and Fallout are TILE BASED games. Which means NO pre-rendered backgrounds. The maps consist of small tiles. It may be less beautiful and give the graphical designer less freedom, but it provides a much friendlier system for area designers. That, and it could allow for a more open and less pre-scripted way of coding. Having destroyable walls as in Jagged Alliance 2 would be a tedious job to implement in a pre-rendered background based game. But I'm getting ahead of you here.
The point is that tile based engines, despite their advantages, tend to look repetetive, often due to a lack of tile variety (20 angled wall tiles with graffiti or 200 angled wall tiles with graffiti make a difference, but not much). In Fallout I never really considered this a problem.

- D&D does not use action points like the SPECIAL system does.
This is the most stupid thing you could have said, Appy. Saying you don't need another D&D game without even knowing what it is. It's a game system first. The setting is not even entirely static within the confinements of every source that has been written on D&D.

 

[Jarinor]

So, AP_Jolly, were you born retarded, or did you make yourself this way? I have a GeForce2 card, and I've never had a problem with Arcanum.

Chess rules can easily fit on a piece of paper.

So because you claim the rules can fit on a single piece of paper, it is a game for dummies? Do you know how much strategy is involved in a game of chess? Do you even know how to play? I think you should stop talking about subjects which you obviously have little to no actual knowledge of.

Number of computer software titles released exclusively for DVD is very small. Now, DVD movie players are different, and I just might buy me a DVD-ROM if rent stores switch to DVD completely.

Again, stupid. Do you think video stores are going to throw out their entire libraries of videos just to give you a better value on your DVD drive? For starters, they're not that expensive these days, and what video store do you frequent that they don't have enough DVD's to satisfy you? Are you a movie guru or something, someone who only watches the classics in black and white? I think an option to buy on either CD or DVD would be good, but you're argument against DVD is crappy, to say it nicely.

Okay, massive Dungeons and Dragons RPG in classic setting with prerendered background sounds like "Baldur's Gate" to me, gee I guess I'm a fucking moron!

Truer words have never arisen from your keyboard. I guess the simple fact that it's an RPG must make it like an strategy game in your book.

I didn't get my computer from Dell, and I'm not paying fifty bucks for a game.

What a great philosophy! Let's put people out of business, simply because we're stingy bastards who don't want to pay full price for a project a heap of people have dedicated more than a year of their lives to. After all, everyone knows that game developers have bucket loads of cash that they collect with glee from the suckers who actually pay money for their games.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

*starts making banning dance towards Ap_Jolli*

 

[Ap_Jolly]

I'm going to play clue police here.

Oh no!

- Your Geforce 2 Card is not chocking on Arcanum in anyway.

Nope, Arcanum runs really smooth on GeForce 2.

Arcanum is not graphically intensive at all. It is rather CPU intensive, but I only notice that on my dual 400 mhz machine.

I notice a great difference between accelerated and non-accelerated modes on my AMD 1.2Ghz. It's blazingly fast in accelerated and like 15 fps or something on nonaccelerated. At least it looks that way.

Thinking hardware acceleration for a 3D card will greatly improve the performance of a 2D tile based game with only a set lightning functions to adress your Geforce 2 with is rather stupid.

Yeah, I thought so too. Hmm... Maybe it's my eyes?

Now, I have a choice here - either be a dick and stomp you for somehow assuming my problem was the performance, or just tell you that the game refuses to give any visual output after 30 minutes of play. Hmm!..

I'd sooner call it ignorant than stupid, but seeing as how you claim to be the judge of what innovation is, I'll claim to know the difference between stupid and ignorant.

Please don't kill me!

- Arcanum and Fallout are TILE BASED games. Which means NO pre-rendered backgrounds. The maps consist of small tiles. It may be less beautiful and give the graphical designer less freedom, but it provides a much friendlier system for area designers. That, and it could allow for a more open and less pre-scripted way of coding. Having destroyable walls as in Jagged Alliance 2 would be a tedious job to implement in a pre-rendered background based game. But I'm getting ahead of you here.
The point is that tile based engines, despite their advantages, tend to look repetetive, often due to a lack of tile variety (20 angled wall tiles with graffiti or 200 angled wall tiles with graffiti make a difference, but not much). In Fallout I never really considered this a problem.

Uh... huh?

- D&D does not use action points like the SPECIAL system does.
This is the most stupid thing you could have said, Appy. Saying you don't need another D&D game without even knowing what it is. It's a game system first. The setting is not even entirely static within the confinements of every source that has been written on D&D.

Yes, that was pretty stupid. But the only turn-based D&D CRPG I have played was "Dark Sun", and my memories of it are pretty vague. Btw, thanks to Spazmo for giving me a quick overview of the combat system.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

So, AP_Jolly, were you born retarded, or did you make yourself this way?

I was born retarded. What about you?

I have a GeForce2 card, and I've never had a problem with Arcanum.

Sir, you didn't even ask me the model of the card, not to mention the manufacturer. Which one is currently in your possession?

So because you claim the rules can fit on a single piece of paper, it is a game for dummies?

No...

Do you know how much strategy is involved in a game of chess?

Yeah.

Do you even know how to play?

Yeah. You know, I think I know what you are about to say.

I think you should stop talking about subjects which you obviously have little to no actual knowledge of.

Err... Dude, I think you just embarassed yourself.

Again, stupid. Do you think video stores are going to throw out their entire libraries of videos just to give you a better value on your DVD drive?

That's an interesting question. Okay, let's think about it... I was saying that if I have no other choice than to buy DVD, and named videostores switching to DVDs exclusively some day as an example of such situation, I would get one. Now, I know I am a stupid retard here, but can you repeat what you just said, because I just don't understand where you are going with this.

For starters, they're not that expensive these days, and what video store do you frequent that they don't have enough DVD's to satisfy you?

Let's take Blockbuster, for once. But why are we even discussing this?

Are you a movie guru or something, someone who only watches the classics in black and white?

Well, there are a number of old-movie DVDs I would love to rent, but would never buy for a number of reasons.

I think an option to buy on either CD or DVD would be good, but you're argument against DVD is crappy, to say it nicely.

My arguement, being "DVD-ROMs don't have enough games on them to justify the purchase", is crappy?! Wait... You're not saying that there are tons of games on DVDs, are you?!

Truer words have never arisen from your keyboard. I guess the simple fact that it's an RPG must make it like an strategy game in your book.

Huh?! Strategy game? Start making sense, dammit!

What a great philosophy!

Yup. It's almost as infuriating to see high price tags on games as seeing them on textbooks.

Let's put people out of business, simply because we're stingy bastards who don't want to pay full price for a project a heap of people have dedicated more than a year of their lives to.

They're lucky I'm buying their version and not warezing, since according to industry experts it is warez that keeps prices so high.

After all, everyone knows that game developers have bucket loads of cash that they collect with glee from the suckers who actually pay money for their games.

A lot of money goes to marketing, and the business is still not really profitable, but there are those who know more about industry than I do.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

*starts making banning dance towards Ap_Jolli*

Your polka holds no power over me!

 

[Jarinor]

I was born retarded. What about you?

I was born smart, and I still am.

Sir, you didn't even ask me the model of the card, not to mention the manufacturer. Which one is currently in your possession?

I have an Asus GF2 GTS. V7700 I think, not sure.

Err... Dude, I think you just embarassed yourself.

Uh, how, exactly. You replying to single sentences of mine with monosyllabic words is hardly an earth-shattering refutal of my argument.

That's an interesting question. Okay, let's think about it... I was saying that if I have no other choice than to buy DVD, and named videostores switching to DVDs exclusively some day as an example of such situation, I would get one. Now, I know I am a stupid retard here, but can you repeat what you just said, because I just don't understand where you are going with this.

Yeah, my bad.

Let's take Blockbuster, for once. But why are we even discussing this?

You bitch about prices on everything, that's why.

My arguement, being "DVD-ROMs don't have enough games on them to justify the purchase", is crappy?! Wait... You're not saying that there are tons of games on DVDs, are you?!

No, I'm saying your argument to not get a DVD player is crap because you claim there aren't enough DVD's for you out there. Game availability notwithstanding, it's not like you need one DVD player to play movies and another for games.

Huh?! Strategy game? Start making sense, dammit!

You were claiming that because the low-level features of the game were similar, that Greyhawk would obviously be a clone of BG. I took your argument a step further to point out how bad it was by saying that RPG's are similar to strategy games. However, you are so retarded that you could not make the connection.

Yup. It's almost as infuriating to see high price tags on games as seeing them on textbooks.

What are you, an embezzling accountant by night? If you want to play decent games ever again, fork out some cash for someone's hard work once in a while asshole! Stop bitching about prices on everything, for fuck's sake!

They're lucky I'm buying their version and not warezing, since according to industry experts it is warez that keeps prices so high.

You're buying their version at the cheapest possible price, showing that you have no respect for their work and value their efforts to little that you hate paying even the cost price of the game.

A lot of money goes to marketing, and the business is still not really profitable, but there are those who know more about industry than I do.

Marketing isn't profitable? Okaaaaaaaaaaay.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

*starts making banning dance towards Ap_Jolli*

Your polka holds no power over me!

Fool!
The polka shall sway you yet, dark one!
Just watch!
*polkas some more*
*does the ban dance faster, harder*

 

[Ap_Jolly]

I have an Asus GF2 GTS. V7700 I think, not sure.

MSI StarForce Geforce 2 TI series, 64 Meg.

Uh, how, exactly. You replying to single sentences of mine with monosyllabic words is hardly an earth-shattering refutal of my argument.

I was being sarcastic. You'd realise that if you didn't take me for an idiot BEFORE reading the whole discussion.

You bitch about prices on everything, that's why.

Yeah, this way I have more money to buy stuff I really want. I call it "my personal fight with consumerism".

No, I'm saying your argument to not get a DVD player is crap because you claim there aren't enough DVD's for you out there. Game availability notwithstanding, it's not like you need one DVD player to play movies and another for games.

That's not what I said, silly man! I said that if I will get DVD-ROM, it will be because 1) there will be tons of games for it, or 2) I will not be able to buy movies on tapes anymore. And if number two will be the case, I will buy DVD-ROM instead of just a player, because this way I will be able to play movies and DVD software at the same time.

You were claiming that because the low-level features of the game were similar, that Greyhawk would obviously be a clone of BG.

I didn't say that it will be a clone of BG. Please stop putting words in my mouth. In fact, I didn't make any assumptions about gameplay whatsoever.

I took your argument a step further to point out how bad it was by saying that RPG's are similar to strategy games. However, you are so retarded that you could not make the connection.

Well, RPGs did evolve from wargames...

What are you, an embezzling accountant by night? If you want to play decent games ever again, fork out some cash for someone's hard work once in a while asshole! Stop bitching about prices on everything, for fuck's sake!

Have some respect for your hard-earned money. I don't know what you do for a living, but throwing fifty bucks on a game is insanity.

You're buying their version at the cheapest possible price, showing that you have no respect for their work and value their efforts to little that you hate paying even the cost price of the game.

Developers don't set the price. Publishers set the price. By paying the retail cost, I thereby support their outrageous pricing policy, their ad campaign, and E3 booth babes. By not paying retail cost, I am, on the other hand, fighting for the day when people like you will be able to come to Electronic Boutique and buy a shiny new game for only $20.

Marketing isn't profitable? Okaaaaaaaaaaay.

I said game industry is not profitable. Dude, you are so dense this is getting annoying.

 

[Spazmo]

Hey, idiot boy: they're not going to lower prices of games just for you. That's just how much a game costs. If you don't want to pay that much, then don't buy the games. Sure, we'd all like to pay less, but most of us are smart enough to realise it'll never happen. Face facts and stop complaining.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Hey, idiot boy:

Hey, corporate whore!

they're not going to lower prices of games just for you.

Of course not - as long as they got people like you to milk!

That's just how much a game costs.

Depends on where you are looking.

If you don't want to pay that much, then don't buy the games.

I don't, dumbass, thanks for the advice! I take a fucking PRIDE in having spend less money on games for entire year than you probably did for this month only!

Sure, we'd all like to pay less, but most of us are smart enough to realise it'll never happen.

...submissive enough

Face facts and stop complaining.

Facts are the prices are only as high as we are willing to pay for them. Respect your money - don't be a corporate whore.

 

[MF]

I'd like them to be cheaper as well. I hardly ever buy games, unless they're really good. Since my disappointment Fallout : Tactics I haven't bought a game before trying a pirated version first.

Unfortunately, unlike with the music industry, I see no real way to make them cheaper. The overhead margin isn't that huge. I kind of like Prelude to Darkness' price. The only recent game I was willing to pay twice that for was Arcanum, though. (And Warcraft III, but that's a different story)


Anyway, you really don't know what a tile based system entails?
If not, my explanation was rather crappy.
Instead of one pre-drawn background, kind of like a painting, you have a background consisting of a bunch of very small paintings, or tiles. You have a dozen sand floor tiles, a bunch of wall tiles forming a wall, 3 car tiles forming a wrecked car, etc. Imagine a grid full of squares with each square filled with a certain texture, like classic CRPG's. Fallout and Arcanum also have these tiles, but they're drawn in a more isometric perspective.

 

[SexExitium]

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'd like them to be cheaper as well. I hardly ever buy games, unless they're really good. Since my disappointment Fallout : Tactics I haven't bought a game before trying a pirated version first.

Some things are better left not said publically, MF.

Anyway, you really don't know what a tile based system entails?
If not, my explanation was rather crappy.
Instead of one pre-drawn background, kind of like a painting, you have a background consisting of a bunch of very small paintings, or tiles. You have a dozen sand floor tiles, a bunch of wall tiles forming a wall, 3 car tiles forming a wrecked car, etc. Imagine a grid full of squares with each square filled with a certain texture, like classic CRPG's. Fallout and Arcanum also have these tiles, but they're drawn in a more isometric perspective.

Tile engines have numerous advantages over the large bitmap engines also. In fact, I'm a little disappointed in Troika for going the bitmap route. Sure, there's a lot of tile reusing, but that doesn't outweigh the perks of the engines.

Like you pointed out, it's a lot easier for the end user to get a map editor because of the tile system. Making new map locations just involves placing tiles on the map in a suitable fashion to lay out what the user invisions. With the bitmap thing, you pretty much have to make a town in a 3D modelling application, render it, and chop it up to specs.

However, since we're talking D&D here, there's a number of things D&D wise that tiles allow that bitmaps don't allow nearly as easily. ToEE could have the Climb skill with tiles, for example. You can make the tile format easily encompass data fields for that tile. A wall tile, for example, could have a data field about how smooth or chunky it is, allowing the climb skill usage to read from that field to determine if the player can or can't successfully scale that object.

You could also do things like give tiles hitpoints and resistances, so you could have that explosive fireball burn them up if they're wooden, knock them down if they're formed brick, and so on. A fireball wouldn't do much to a solid rock wall, though, so you can have that be impervious to fireballs. However, since it's stone, you could use transmutation spells on it. Tiles are SO much more flexible than bitmaps.

 

[MF]

Yes that's what I said earlier using Jagged Alliance 2's destroyable walls as an example.

And you're right about leaving some things unsaid. I had an argument with Rosh about that on Vault13. I tend to believe my moral justifications are universally acceptable while they're not. I do not advocate piracy as a subtitute for buying a game, I'll make that much clear to rectify the situation for the misinterpreting reader.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Well, traditionally tiles involve a multidimensional matrix, regardless of whether they are using rectangular or hexagonal tiles. They are then usually placed in arrays for quicker access. But with prerendered backgrounds, things are different (especially when you have a huge, five-screen map of a dungeon). Say, you got layers and layers of images, each one displayed according to its z-index. You can outline impassible zones with color, and do boolean operations on overlapping tiles (for doors and other objects). It's neat, but requires to have a 3D-artist in the team and lots of space on the disk, even with optimization. Yes, tiles are the best when it comes to changeable landscape, but you really don't see it that often in tile-based games. It'd be neat to have an AI that will have NPCs following you up the walls and blowing up holes in doors you closed, or shooting up the generator that controls the doors to the exit (if their mission is to get you), solely on the fact that they can identify the surrounding as volatile.