Titan Quest producer rants on PC market.

[Naked Ninja]

Companies should be allowed by law to put discreetly virus infected versions of their own products on file sharing services. A ruined hard drive or two and pirates would loose interest real fast.

Nope, the bad rep would kill them. It's different when you don't have internet anonymity to hide behind, like pirates

 

[kris]

Frankly, that's hard to beat: Convenience, a competitive price point, an actually superior product, and my privacy intact. Name ONE company which can offer me this if I buy their product.

Paradox offers that more or less with their own products.

 

[Ratty]

Companies should be allowed by law to put discreetly virus infected versions of their own products on file sharing services. A ruined hard drive or two and pirates would loose interest real fast.

Have you read *anything* in these half a dozen or so piracy threads? Stupid methods like that have been tried before and they always failed miserably.

You see, file sharing sites don't work online game stores. *Anyone* can offer up a game on a file sharing site, and anyone will. However, as I have repeated at least three times over the past couple of days, any downloader who isn't completely clueless about warez will be smart enough to download only those files that are the most popular (i.e. have most seeds and downloaders). Coincidentally, most popular releases are always those that were prepared by respected warez groups. Such groups are careful to deliver competently cracked and rigorously tested product, because if they fail to do so, their credibility in the Scene will take a hit (yes, warez groups are often more concerned with their good reputation than game companies, as unbelievable as that sounds).

So what does that mean? Simply put, it means developer-planted versions will be downloaded and played by almost no-one. In fact, with all those countless files floating about that have only one or two seeds, I doubt many people will even take notice of their existence.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Companies should be allowed by law to put discreetly virus infected versions of their own products on file sharing services. A ruined hard drive or two and pirates would loose interest real fast.

Yeah uhh... Naked Ninja already pointed it out but:

a) That's what most DRM tools do anyway...

b) It's what Iron Lore did and then had to deal with 90% of people who played their game (that is, the pirates) whinging about bugs.

EDIT: Added links for extra street cred. I'm so cool like that. Cool like a cat. A Cat with extra cool.

 

[Norfleet]

Paradox offers that more or less with their own products.

Really? I tried to look them up, but I immediately got punted to a dodgy third-party website which promptly turned into a bizarre maze devoid of any apparent place to buy, as the the "buy" button turned into a lost password button. I found the experience to be thoroughly confusing and inconvenient. Had this been pirate site, I'd already be downloading something. They need to work on their delivery. Furthermore, it was unclear what would happen in the event that I *DID* find out how to actually buy something. Plus, the entire "dodgy third-party website" thing plus the lack of clarity in how, exactly, they were to get paid at all, was mostly discouraging. All in all, I found the experience unsatisfactory.

 

[kris]

Paradox offers that more or less with their own products.

Really? I tried to look them up, but I immediately got punted to a dodgy third-party website which promptly turned into a bizarre maze devoid of any apparent place to buy, as the the "buy" button turned into a lost password button. I found the experience to be thoroughly confusing and inconvenient. Had this been pirate site, I'd already be downloading something. They need to work on their delivery. Furthermore, it was unclear what would happen in the event that I *DID* find out how to actually buy something. Plus, the entire "dodgy third-party website" thing plus the lack of clarity in how, exactly, they were to get paid at all, was mostly discouraging. All in all, I found the experience unsatisfactory.

Is true I heard many a complaint about their download site even if I personally had no problems. Things I wanted to point out otherwise was.

- No copy protection checks (apart from their first games), I never need to put ni the CDs
- Possible to buy and download.
- Competitive prices for add-ons

In particular their lack of copy protection is really convenient and I have considered pirating many of their competitors just because of CD checks.

 

[Norfleet]

- No copy protection checks (apart from their first games), I never need to put ni the CDs
- Possible to buy and download.
- Competitive prices for add-ons

In particular their lack of copy protection is really convenient and I have considered pirating many of their competitors just because of CD checks.

This certainly sounds encouraging, but I have concerns about their privacy policies. Do they have a privacy policy comparable with "sending an expendable child into the store with cash while watching from a secure vantage point"? Because, frankly, I am not comfortable with any operation that involves names, addresses, credit card numbers, or pictures. I refuse to even be seen within 100 meters of the store. Do they accept secure anonymous payment methods?

 

[Yahweh]

- No copy protection checks (apart from their first games), I never need to put ni the CDs
- Possible to buy and download.
- Competitive prices for add-ons

In particular their lack of copy protection is really convenient and I have considered pirating many of their competitors just because of CD checks.

This certainly sounds encouraging, but I have concerns about their privacy policies. Do they have a privacy policy comparable with "sending an expendable child into the store with cash while watching from a secure vantage point"? Because, frankly, I am not comfortable with any operation that involves names, addresses, credit card numbers, or pictures. I refuse to even be seen within 100 meters of the store. Do they accept secure anonymous payment methods?

I have to laugh at your paranoid ramblings. Pictures? Do you wear a darth vader mask every time you go to the mall to go to the bookstore and buy an orange julius? Do you believe that the little red light on your computer goes on when big brother is watching you? Are you planning to use the games you buy to bring down the government?

I use my credit cards for everything but fast food drivethrus, and my soul has yet to be stolen by their magic, knock on wood. If you are under the delusion you will save yourself from junk mail or something, that's a sad mistake, too. They can look you up through a hundred different ways anonymously already, and I have yet to get any targeted junk mail from any of the online stuff I have done, which is a lot.

Honestly, I think these are just excuses. Why don't you just admit to yourself that you want to steal the games? Because that's the truth. You are the dude from work you go to lunch with and never puts in any money for tip and half the time is short for his bill. The guy who always has some excuse, the service was bad they just can't afford it blah blah blah. Well, I usually know what everyone makes at all the places I've worked and it's never that the dude is so poor or anything, it's just that he doesn't want to pay!

That's it plain and simple. Why do people come up with these ludicrous bullshit excuses? The sending a child into the store to buy your game is especially hilarious since you don't buy your games from an actual store when given the chance.

 

[Norfleet]

I have to laugh at your paranoid ramblings. Pictures? Do you wear a darth vader mask every time you go to the mall to go to the bookstore and buy an orange julius?

No. There isn't a mall where I live anyway, not enough people. Besides, I don't like malls. And just because you're paranoid, it does not mean they are not out to get you. Even paranoids have enemies.

Do you believe that the little red light on your computer goes on when big brother is watching you?

No, but I installed that light myself.

Are you planning to use the games you buy to bring down the government?

No, and I don't register software, either. If history teaches us anything, it's that registration is the first step to confiscation.

I use my credit cards for everything but fast food drivethrus, and my soul has yet to be stolen by their magic, knock on wood.

I don't even own a credit card. I pay cash only.

If you are under the delusion you will save yourself from junk mail or something, that's a sad mistake, too.

All of my mail is screened by incinerator.

Honestly, I think these are just excuses. Why don't you just admit to yourself that you want to steal the games?

I am less concerned with how I get them than the hassle, security, and quality of the product I get. At the moment, pirated games offer the highest quality product with the greatest security and least hassle. That is all that concerns me, and I'm sure that this is a contributing factor to the "problem". Companies should consider these points.

You are the dude from work you go to lunch with and never puts in any money for tip and half the time is short for his bill.

I don't go to lunch. Lunch is for the weak. Besides, it's a bad habit to develop a predictable habit like going to lunch at the same time every day. Besides, why pay for food at all? There's usually a tasty rat somewhere nearby. Paying for food just supports the food-conglomerate. That's what they WANT you to do. No, I would rather just eat rats. They taste better, and are healthier. You can tell when food is healthy: It tries to get away from you when you attempt to eat it. When was the last time YOUR food attempted to flee your devourment?

 

[MetalCraze]

after the shit that is TQ and reading of players' Soulstorm reviews I'm just happy that this retarded dev team has tanked. the justice prevailed that day.

 

[Fez]

Same here. These people deserved to lose their jobs. Taking a dump on the DoW series is their final legacy.

 

[kris]

This certainly sounds encouraging, but I have concerns about their privacy policies. Do they have a privacy policy comparable with "sending an expendable child into the store with cash while watching from a secure vantage point"? Because, frankly, I am not comfortable with any operation that involves names, addresses, credit card numbers, or pictures. I refuse to even be seen within 100 meters of the store. Do they accept secure anonymous payment methods?

I don't know to much about paypal, but you can use that. first that was the only way to pay, believe they have others now. Personally I rather use my credit card if it is a company I trust.

 

[Norfleet]

I don't know to much about paypal, but you can use that. first that was the only way to pay, believe they have others now.

Meh. Paypal is acceptable. I don't consider them GOOD, given that they're run entirely by untrustworthy scoundrels and thieves, but at least there are ways around them. Real pain in the ass, though. Hardly convenient, unless you already happen to have funds on-hand, which is dangerous, when dealing with known thieves like Paypal. Very hit or miss, though, as it depends on the opportunity occurring between the window in which I happen to have money, and the time I liquidate the account before Paypal seizes it. I've purchased things from Stardock through Paypal, primarily because at the time, it was a use-it-lose-it proposition. I try to keep the amount of funds circulating on Paypal limited for this reason.

Personally I rather use my credit card if it is a company I trust.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[rei1974]

Well is common to complain about "the market" if a product fails. The truth is, that only if you make some online-only features you have hopes of your game not getting cracked...

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
Stardock on piracy.

 

[Fez]

Sounds very similar to what Section8 said a while ago too.

I'll wait and see how NN spins this one.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I got bored when he started talking about how he doesn't get press coverage because his games aren't cool enough. Um, no. It's because other developers paid more for coverage. Remember the angry Codex thing about how the press is bought and paid for? Don't change tune now. Coolness my ass.

Also, as a side note, you guys are funny. If you weren't trying to use his post to support your arguments this :

Oblivion was captivating

would have generated about 5 pages of jeering.

In the end, the pirates hurt themselves. PC game developers will either slowly migrate to making games that cater to the people who buy PC games or they'll move to platforms where people are more inclined to buy games.

Wait, wasn't the argument that piracy isn't harmful? Wasn't the point of the TQ dev's rant that he is heading to console land now.

I don't want anyone to walk away from this article thinking I am poo-pooing the effect of piracy. I'm not. I definitely feel for game developers who want to make kick ass PC games who see their efforts diminished by a bunch of greedy pirates.

Wasn't my point that I felt for the TQ dev, that piracy had negatively affected them and that all of your jeering annoyed me?

I think it was. Seems I'm not the only one who feels for devs affected by pirates. Or who feels that pirates diminish a companies returns.

And while I like Stardock, the mans point seems to be "don't make games for genres with heavy pracy". Wow, what a great plan. I'm curious as to how many of the genres I enjoy on PC would wither up and die under that philosophy. I really like RTS, I wonder if that is heavily pirated...

Heres to a future where this :

Our games target genres with the largest customer bases per cost to produce for

is the deciding philosophy over whether a particular game will be made.

You guys really are short sighted, aren't you? You realise the RPG genre is at the very opposite end of that scale? They are incredibly expensive to produce for their total customer base. The only people who make them these days are the people who really, really think they are cool.

 

[Fez]

Great job. You never disappoint.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I aim to please.

 

[pkt-zer0]

I really like RTS, I wonder if that is heavily pirated...

Blizzard's doing pretty well with their RTS sales, last I heard.

Blaming piracy is easy. But it hides other underlying causes. When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue.

Liers!

 

[Alex]

I don't want anyone to walk away from this article thinking I am poo-pooing the effect of piracy. I'm not. I definitely feel for game developers who want to make kick ass PC games who see their efforts diminished by a bunch of greedy pirates.

Wasn't my point that I felt for the TQ dev, that piracy had negatively affected them and that all of your jeering annoyed me?

I think it was. Seems I'm not the only one who feels for devs affected by pirates. Or who feels that pirates diminish a companies returns.

I think his point is that developers act as if pirates were paying customers that somehow managed to do not pay. For an analogy, imagine the pirates as a mined field, and companies want to hunt the deer standing behind it. Then the criticized developers are like people who mindless step on the mines, even though they know they are there. Their idea of solution to the problem is making harder shoes. Now, of course whoever left the mines there is an asshole, but that doesn't make it intelligent to go and step on them.

Draginol's solution seem to avoid the mines, even if it means you can't get to the deer. Instead, you go off and try to hunt a rabbit or a squirrel. Section8's seem to prefer to somehow use the mines to your advantage. Instead of stepping or avoiding them, use them as a trap to get the deer.

And while I like Stardock, the mans point seems to be "don't make games for genres with heavy pracy". Wow, what a great plan. I'm curious as to how many of the genres I enjoy on PC would wither up and die under that philosophy. I really like RTS, I wonder if that is heavily pirated...

Heres to a future where this :

Our games target genres with the largest customer bases per cost to produce for

is the deciding philosophy over whether a particular game will be made.

You guys really are short sighted, aren't you? You realise the RPG genre is at the very opposite end of that scale? They are incredibly expensive to produce for their total customer base. The only people who make them these days are the people who really, really think they are cool.

I hate such deciding method as much as you, but if it is the only one that works, what use is complaining? Like I said before, I think developers should always develop whatever they like best. However, we can't pretend that only this is somehow going to make the game profitable. If the current model for games can't produce the games you want to develop, you must somehow seek a new one. For example, if games put 60% of their funds in graphics, and reducing it to 30% would only reduce your player base in 10%, then it a no brainer course of action.

 

[Naked Ninja]

that developers act as if pirates were paying customers that somehow managed to do not pay

A good number are. Lets say you have a shop which sells cakes. Someone sets up a stand next to the shop offering cakes for free. Does the shops revenue decrease? Would it increase if free cakes weren't available? Would it increase if you had to drive across town to get free cakes? Yes to all. This is simple logic, if someone offers your product for free they tempt away people who would otherwise buy. Arguments that this will generate desire for the shop's cakes might make sense...if the free cake stand didn't hang around permanently. Then people just go back to the source of free cake.

Now what if the free cake stand stole the cakes it gave away from the cake store? Well then...that is a parasitic relationship which will kill it's host. The cake stand will just move on to another store... But if embraced fully that system will result in no one ever making cakes because there is no profit in it. Or cake shops will hire guys with guns to shoot the cake stand people. Aka more oppressive laws and worse DRM systems.

I hate such deciding method as much as you, but if it is the only one that works, what use is complaining?

Except we've just gone round and round for pages discussing how this isn't the only option. I like the Stardock guy but what worked for him isn't the only way. Steam seems to be working for Valve. Who is to say they don't have much greater profits than Stardock despite being in the FPS genre which the guy seems to see as one of the worst to make PC games on because of high cost versus customer base blah blah coolness factor blah blah.

For example, if games put 60% of their funds in graphics, and reducing it to 30% would only reduce your player base in 10%, then it a no brainer course of action.

Nope. Only if the revenue from sales is roughly equivalent to the cost to produce. If it isn't then it is NOT a "no-brainer".

If you spend 1 million to make a game that generates sales worth 10 million, then cutting your costs by $300 000 isn't worth the lost revenue of $1 mill, yes?

 

[aron searle]

I don't even own a credit card. I pay cash only.

I am less concerned with how I get them than the hassle, security, and quality of the product I get. At the moment, pirated games offer the highest quality product with the greatest security and least hassle. That is all that concerns me, and I'm sure that this is a contributing factor to the "problem". Companies should consider these points.

Anyone spot the flaw there.

anyone?

 

[Alex]

that developers act as if pirates were paying customers that somehow managed to do not pay

A good number are. Lets say you have a shop which sells cakes. Someone sets up a stand next to the shop offering cakes for free. Does the shops revenue decrease? Would it increase if free cakes weren't available? Would it increase if you had to drive across town to get free cakes? Yes to all. This is simple logic, if someone offers your product for free they tempt away people who would otherwise buy. Arguments that this will generate desire for the shop's cakes might make sense...if the free cake stand didn't hang around permanently. Then people just go back to the source of free cake.

Now what if the free cake stand stole the cakes it gave away from the cake store? Well then...that is a parasitic relationship which will kill it's host. The cake stand will just move on to another store... But if embraced fully that system will result in no one ever making cakes because there is no profit in it. Or cake shops will hire guys with guns to shoot the cake stand people. Aka more oppressive laws and worse DRM systems.

Ok, I was just saying what I believe to be his point, not what I myself believe. I think his point was that pirates aren't paying customers as things are now. Rather than try to change this, he goes along with the flow and makes profit that way.

I hate such deciding method as much as you, but if it is the only one that works, what use is complaining?

Except we've just gone round and round for pages discussing how this isn't the only option. I like the Stardock guy but what worked for him isn't the only way. Steam seems to be working for Valve. Who is to say they don't have much greater profits than Stardock despite being in the FPS genre which the guy seems to see as one of the worst to make PC games on because of high cost versus customer base blah blah coolness factor blah blah .

I don't think it is the only option either. I was just saying that if it is, then it is of no use complaining. What I think is that we need more testing with different options. However the game industry seem to mostly prefer going over to consoles. Still, gametap for example might be a nice idea. It seems to have a lot of good games for a very reasonable price. If it was available here, I certainly would subscribe.

For example, if games put 60% of their funds in graphics, and reducing it to 30% would only reduce your player base in 10%, then it a no brainer course of action.

Nope. Only if the revenue from sales is roughly equivalent to the cost to produce. If it isn't then it is NOT a "no-brainer".

If you spend 1 million to make a game that generates sales worth 10 million, then cutting your costs by $300 000 isn't worth the lost revenue of $1 mill, yes?

Sorry, that was just a half arsed example. I made it with the implicit supposition that the games in question would generate little to no profits. In other words, an inviable game. My point was that some inviable games might be viable if it is treated differently from mainstream, or if it tries a different publishing scheme, like episodic content. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[ironman3000]

I played TQ without any problems, and it was the most boring, pointless game ever. There was no purpose to it. It has a highly uninteresting and predictable story.

Ofcourse, I can sympathize with what the producer is saying, he didn't say anything wrong at all.