Titan Quest producer rants on PC market.

[denizsi]

AAAaaaaaagh, I am experiencing severe headpain...

Explain how what he said was wrong. Actually, don't. TQ producer admitted it himself.

 

[Alex]

Sometimes the sheer aggressiveness of a lot of your stupidty makes me grind my teeth.

Logic fail :

-> I didn't like the game this man made.

-> Therefore, when he makes points about issues that affect every single PC developer negatively, all of them, even the ones you like, his points are invalid and it is time for jeering. Because he didn't make a game you like.

Epic logic fail. Stardock is successful are they? Awesome. So that makes it fine if no piracy could potentially make them twice as successful? If they could get more of the fruits of their labour that they deserve, that is theirs by right? Stardocks attitude is a good one, but who wants to bet me $100 their games still get pirated? They just aren't wasting time fighting a hopeless war. Just because they take it on the chin doesn't make complaints about the losses invalid.

Oh, and they shouldn't put copy protection in because what happens if criminals half break it then that gets used against them via word of mouth? Epic fail.

The man claimed he needed that word-of-mouth advertising, then he proceeded to shoot himself in the foot by making sure the most vocal word of mouthers whose opinions would be heeded by their less technically advanced peers would complain the game was buggy crashware. Smooth. If you expect to establish yourself as a name, you effectively have to eat your losses on your first game, because few people are daft enough to blow their cash on a game no one's ever heard of which is likely crap. If you're relying on word of mouth to spread your game, the pirates *ARE* your advertising campaign.

AAAaaaaaagh, I am experiencing severe headpain...

While I will agree that the aggressiveness here is uneeded (but then again, so is yours), I think the point about copy protection is valid. Without some kind of new technology, single player games will always be crackable, usually just a short time after a cracker gets his hands on it. Finding these cracks is rarelly harder than finding the pirated copy of the game (usually they come together).

Now, it may seem like the copy protection in this case stopped some people from playing the game, as those with the pirated copies had game stopping "bugs". However, these people just needed to wait for the new crack to come. So, if these measures aren't helping game devs any, why continue with them? Sure, it might annoy some people who pirated the game, but the end result of that was just bad word of mouth.

I don't know how bad pirating is, or how much better computer games would be without it, but talking about it won't change the fact that pirating will continue. There are various measures against it, but I think measures like giving special downloads to paying customers, like stardock did is much more effective than things like starforce.

 

[The_Pope]

Sometimes the sheer aggressiveness of a lot of your stupidty makes me grind my teeth.

Logic fail :

-> I didn't like the game this man made.

-> Therefore, when he makes points about issues that affect every single PC developer negatively, all of them, even the ones you like, his points are invalid and it is time for jeering. Because he didn't make a game you like.

Epic logic fail. Stardock is successful are they? Awesome. So that makes it fine if no piracy could potentially make them twice as successful? If they could get more of the fruits of their labour that they deserve, that is theirs by right? Stardocks attitude is a good one, but who wants to bet me $100 their games still get pirated? They just aren't wasting time fighting a hopeless war. Just because they take it on the chin doesn't make complaints about the losses invalid.

Oh, and they shouldn't put copy protection in because what happens if criminals half break it then that gets used against them via word of mouth? Epic fail.

AAAaaaaaagh, I am experiencing severe headpain...

The thing with his piracy complaints is that they had a really stupid copy protection system and it bit them in the ass. There are ways to cut losses, but DRM on an open system (and even most closed ones) is a joke. Compelling online play with master servers that require legitimate CD keys, Steam style activation and even customer goodwill all help. Crashing pirates games out of impotent spite doesn't, and has a big risk of getting legitimate customers instead.

 

[Naked Ninja]

-> The thieves are going to steal your product no matter what.

-> Therefore I should make sure the thieves enjoy my product as much as possible, so they tell their friends how great it is.

Epic fail. Why don't you offer them a cup of coffee and an alarm clock radio with thier ripped copy, make sure they give you a glowing review?

I don't know how bad pirating is, or how much better computer games would be without it

You also don't know the gain from simply making it harder for pirates. Let me help you : http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

Now I don't plan to put copy protection in SoW. But to mock people who do, and who do so from a genuine anger over peoples casual theft of what they have worked their asses off for years... but hey, you didn't like Titan Quest, so it's cool right?

@ Pope : False. See above. 70% increase = compelling argument.

 

[DraQ]

There are various measures against it, but I think measures like giving special downloads to paying customers, like stardock did is much more effective than things like starforce.

I agree, more carrot, less stick.

 

[crufty]

I can see the guys pains. the art / sound, at least based on the web site, are all pretty nice.

A shame they didn't make a multi party turn based rpg instead of a diablo clone. Then I might have bought it--if I even had a windows box to run it on.

I have a different take. PC Game Developers should focus less on the casual market and MORE on the hard core gamer market. Word of mouth isn't everything, its the only thing.

I agree piracy sucks. Like lawsuits, it stifles innovation. However, it is a reality, also like lawsuits, that folks need to plan for as part of their bus. development process, in the same way one would plan for market targets and gamer profiles.

One other thing...if you want a stable pc platform, write a mac game!

 

[Disconnected]

-> I didn't like the game this man made.

-> Therefore, when he makes points about issues that affect every single PC developer negatively, all of them, even the ones you like, his points are invalid and it is time for jeering. Because he didn't make a game you like.

Yeh, it's almost half as fucked up as a dev accusing everything from pirates to hardware to their (freely chosen) target audience not being certified sysops, for his failed marketing strategy, his failed anti-piracy scheme and his fucking company going belly-up. But of course, he then compounded his epic mental cluster-fuck-fest by claiming this is proof that other people don't take responsibility for their own idiotic mistakes, and hit the all-time retard Jackpot by calling everyone but his own fat ass stupid.

Way to fucking go. I'm impressed you'd step up to defend that fucking retard. Impressed, by your utter lack of sense.

They just aren't wasting time fighting a hopeless war.

Oh, and they shouldn't put copy protection in because what happens if criminals half break it then that gets used against them via word of mouth?

And that, my fiend, is how you just demonstrated that the problem isn't piracy.

Too tricky to grasp?

You just showed that the audience won't accept the current distribution model, and admitted that - as any fucking first grader can confirm - the audience isn't your bitch. You are ours.

I've already told you what the problem is. Twice. I've even offered you a solution, even though it should be fucking self-evident to anyone clever enough to operate a keyboard.

Go the route of TV. There is no other choice. The audience expects to get your product for free, so if it isn't free to make, you have to find some other way of financing it. The alternative is that you lose your audience. Luckily for devs, the shit they peddle happens to be targeted at specific consumer demographics, and when they allow their audience to get their products for free, they have more penetrating power than you can shake all the 50 million Muslim faggots in the world at. This means there's MASSIVE potential for making the audience pay indirectly. Let the fucking advertising industry take over distribution & let them dump their crap into your games. You can always sell a few overpriced "special ad-free boxed set limited donkeyballs edition" to nerds like me.

Advertisers knows how to rip us off. They've proven for 60 years now that they're more than capable of running exactly the kind of "free" distribution scam that we all fall for. The advertising profits on any given TV show are fucking massive for the producers and the advertisers, and not only is the gaming public for the major titles larger, the games are a hundred times better medium for that sort of thing that TV.

Get the fuck over yourself, your anti-piracy and your loathing and scorn of your fellow man. Or perish, like the fucking addled dino you are.

AAAaaaaaagh, I am experiencing severe headpain...

No shit.


Yes, it makes me angry when pea-brained fossils tries to vilify their audience & ruin their fucking lives, all for the sake of clinging to the Dark Ages. We need a new word for despicable scum like that; consumer terrorists. Because that is what you're about. There's nothing to you beyond bitching, whining and trying to destroy the people whose money and recognition you desire.

 

[Naked Ninja]

consumer terrorists

AAAaaaaaagh, it's burning again, the stupidity, it sears my brain.

There's nothing to you beyond bitching, whining and trying to destroy the people whose money and recognition you desire.

You are completely oblivious to why most people enter the game development industry, aren't you?

The audience expects to get your product for free

And yet when the Titan Quest guy said "Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there" he was being silly? Hey, you work for a living right? Give me your car. And your house. I like free stuff.

And that, my fiend, is how you just demonstrated that the problem isn't piracy.

The war is unwinnable so the war isn't a problem? Legendary logic failure.

Ruin their lives? AHAHAhahahAHAhahaha. I bought Titan Quest, I was thoroughly disappointed by it. Ruined my life, AHAHAHAHahahAHAhahahaha...my but you are a silly person. But I'm an evil dev who wants to destroy you! Mwoaarrrr!!!

 

[Brother None]

Naked Ninja, though I hate pirates with quite a bit of zeal and can half-agree with some of the points you're making here, I still have to ask another thing.

Like I said before, he's blaming the consumers & pirates for how hard it is to work in the PC gaming industry. Piracy turned Titan Quest from an AAA hit into a game that did just ok. Alright, I can accept that.

But pirates didn't shut down Iron Lore, which is where his pain is coming from. So isn't it weird that he's not ranting at all - not even mentioning - the popular publisher model of the gaming industry which means there is zero interest in supporting developing houses like Iron Lore or Troika (the situation with the two really was similar).

 

[Disconnected]

You are completely oblivious to why most people enter the game development industry, aren't you?

They want to make games for a living?

And yet when the Titan Quest guy said "Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there" he was being silly?

That is precisely what he was. Games are free. If we're to take his piracy numerology as truth, only 10% of his audience are stupid; the ones that pay him.

Hey, you work for a living right? Give me your car. And your house. I like free stuff.

Like listening to your car radio? Reading the free newspapers? Watching TV? Are you seriously suggesting that simply because a product is perceived as free, it cannot make a profit?

Are you fucking high? Or just too fucking stupid to tie your own shoes?

The war is unwinnable so the war isn't a problem? Legendary logic failure.

On the contrary. There's no war. There never was. Your failure to comprehend that you can't put the genie back in the bottle, does not mean that the genie is bad, the bottle desirable, or that people should suffer the attempts of politicians owned by dying distributors to ruin their livelihoods.

But you're apparently too fucking dumb to understand that if you want the money and recognition of a bunch of people, hauling their asses in court isn't the way to do it.

But I'm an evil dev who wants to destroy you!

Indeed. The sad thing is you're apparently too mentally deficient to understand what you're doing.

Just.. Don't have kids, OK?

 

[Naked Ninja]

I hear what you are saying BN, but you are thinking as a gamer. These are business investments. People have money, they invest in a company which they believe will make them a good return on their investment, when they only give them their money back after 3 years, maybe with a slight profit, why invest your money there a second time? Thats like putting your money under your bed. Would you feel so strongly if we were discussing textiles? Producers aren't evil, they are just businessmen first and foremost.

I DON'T believe in the current publisher model. It is not a good one for a creative industry. But if you are looking to lay blame for the studio closing, who better to blame :

1) People who followed good business practice and looked for a better investment.

2) People who stole the product, reduced profit, and ultimately led to the people from (1) deciding to look elsewhere instead of reinvesting in the developer.

Who is more guilty there? Who deserves more legitimate ire?

 

[Brother None]

I hear what you are saying BN, but you are thinking as a gamer. These are business investments. People have money, they invest in a company which they believe will make them a good return on their investment, when they only give them their money back after 3 years, maybe with a slight profit, why invest your money there a second time? Thats like putting your money under your bed. Would you feel so strongly if we were discussing textiles? Producers aren't evil, they are just businessmen first and foremost.

Oh, I know that. But y'know, you have to take where you're working into account. You can't take business models from industrial companies like textile or oil or steel and apply them to businesses where completely different interests rule, like sports or films or games.

Take sports, for instance. Sports doesn't work like steel, no sport does. Big-money sports like the NFL or European soccer are enormous businesses, yet they still operate by their own logic, and businessmen from the outside who come in thinking only in business terms tend to fail.

What you said it s true, the publisher model stifles creativity and offers the same problems that Hollywood faces sporadically, except that it's even worse than the Hollywood model. But you're not going to change the model if everyone is conveniently laying all the blame on pirates, or declaring the PC gaming market dead because of it. That'll solve nothing.

1) People who followed good business practice and looked for a better investment.

2) People who stole the product, reduced profit, and ultimately led to the people from (1) deciding to look elsewhere instead of reinvesting in the developer.

Who is more guilty there? Who deserves more legitiamte ire?

2 didn't actually shut down the company. You forgot to mention that. In other words, they are guilty of fairly separate things. Related, but not as directly as your painting it to be.

 

[Disconnected]

Who is more guilty there? Who deserves more legitiamte ire?

"Followed good business practice"? You have got to be joking.

If you're only making a profit off 10% of the audience you reach, you're not even in the same universe as "good business practice". Of course your investors run for the hills. Shit, you're only marginally better at handling their investment than a kleptomaniac.

What is that head of yours? Solid steel with a Teflon coating? If your distribution system doesn't work, you don't get to blame other people. Nobody forced you to use it. It was a choice you made.

It's not that it isn't OK to be a failure as a businessman, and it certainly isn't a crime to fuck up every once in a while. But when you do, you either throw in the towel or you fucking learn and adapt.

But if you really, really want other people to think you're a spoiled 5 year old, go right ahead and blame people for your bad choices.

 

[RK47]

it's not always black n white as ppl claim it to be, just saying. I never really believed developers gave a fuck about Asian market. English or no English, 50 bucks is a lot of cash for lot of 3rd world country. I can't blame them for pirating shit, but looking at North American market, there shd be enough legit buyers to make your development pay off.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Theft isn't guilt?

The producers didn't shut down the company dude. They simply stopped giving them more money. Experience showed return on their investment wasn't high enough, so don't invest more money. What is wrong with that exactly? Nothing.

However, a development house of any size, from an indie of size 1 to mainstream 100+ houses, has a monthly burn rate while they go about making games. (Salaries + operating costs) X months = large ass amount of money. Without money coming in from either sales or a publisher they are boned.

So pirates hit them from 2 directions : less sales = less profits to sustain them while looking for investors, and less profits = less chance publisher considers your a worthwhile investment to grow their money.

Investors actually don't care about the field they are investing in so much BN. That's the companies CEOs concern. Investors look at how much money they put in versus how much they get back after a while. The mechanic is simple, it operates across all the businesses on the stock market. Sure there are differences, but fundamentally it's about giving someone your money in the hope that they will do something with it to grow it so you both prosper. Theft hurts that.

 

[DoppelG]

because at least in my experience almost everyone who pirated a game that he truly enjoyed..... buys it. yes there s exceptions... and those exceptions are a freaking shame.....

Pretty much agree with what most said (although probably more nuanced) but whoever managed to type this pile of bullshit by repeatedly banging his head on the keyboard trying to make sense is a fucking ignorant piece of total and utter retardedness.

If you actually think more then 5% of the ones who pirate will ever buy (yes even the budget version) the game they just pirated then you're living in a fairy fantasy.

Advertisers knows how to rip us off. They've proven for 60 years now that they're more than capable of running exactly the kind of "free" distribution scam that we all fall for. The advertising profits on any given TV show are fucking massive for the producers and the advertisers, and not only is the gaming public for the major titles larger, the games are a hundred times better medium for that sort of thing that TV.

For clarification, you want ads in your game? (or atleast woudn't mind it?)

 

[Brother None]

Theft isn't guilt?

Theft is guilt. I never meant to deny that. But putting all the blame on piracy is ludicrous, when Iron Lore could have survived and made more Titan Quests, returning small profitability but not making a loss to their investors - if the model were more sensible.

In other words, a company like Iron Lore is not viable because of the combination of piracy and bad publishing models, trying to blame either one fully, like the author of that rant was doing, is ridiculous.

 

[Section8]

-> I didn't like the game this man made.
-> Therefore, when he makes points about issues that affect every single PC developer negatively, all of them, even the ones you like, his points are invalid and it is time for jeering. Because he didn't make a game you like.

It's also a logic failure to assume that somebody who opposes piracy/hardware conflicts/etc has a reasonable stance on them. It would be pretty safe to say Islamic fundamentalists have a negative net effect on the world as a whole, but that's not going to stop me aggressively arguing against somebody whose solution is to nuke the Middle East back to the Stone Age.

This has little to do with the fact that Titan Quest is a shit game. It's the fact that the reasoning this guy applies is also detrimental to the games industry.

Yes, piracy is a problem. Yes, hardware is a problem. Yes, the end user can be ignorant.

But let's consider rational solutions instead of "Bawwww, Iron Lore are no more because of these problems", and let's not forget there are countless successes in spite of these problems.

-> The thieves are going to steal your product no matter what.

-> Therefore I should make sure the thieves enjoy my product as much as possible, so they tell their friends how great it is.

Epic fail. Why don't you offer them a cup of coffee and an alarm clock radio with thier ripped copy, make sure they give you a glowing review?

What exactly are you "losing" when someone pirates your game? It's not like theft, where you lose an asset irretrievably. The only thing you "lose" are potential customers - but you can also argue that you gain them through education and familiarity. Why do many MMOGs have free weekends, weeks, months, etc?

Also:

The sales to download ratio found on Reflexive implies that a pirated copy is more similar to the loss of a download (a poorly converting one!) than the loss of a sale.

As we believe that we are decreasing the number of pirates downloading the game with our DRM fixes, combining the increased sales number together with the decreased downloads, we find 1 additional sale for every 1,000 less pirated downloads. Put another way, for every 1,000 pirated copies we eliminated, we created 1 additional sale.

Wow! They sure showed them! That's an abysmal conversion rate. All it takes is for those thousand pirates to recommend the game to two more ethical customers, either directly or indirectly and you've got double the conversion rate for letting rampant pirates market for you. Does that seem that far fetched to you?

Now I don't plan to put copy protection in SoW. But to mock people who do, and who do so from a genuine anger over peoples casual theft of what they have worked their asses off for years... but hey, you didn't like Titan Quest, so it's cool right?

You shouldn't blame the issues for failing where many other have succeeded, especially when the product you've worked your ass off for has little value. Yes, of course they're problems. Would Iron Lore be alive and kicking in a utopia where piracy rates were 0%, hardware always worked exactly as described and people accepted responsibility for the shortcomings of their PCs?

It's a philosophical question, but I'd have to say no. Consider all of the other games the people who pirated Titan Quest also pirated. Imagine each pirate ranked them in order from most desirable to least desirable and went down the list, purchasing as many as they can. Consider how far those pirates could stretch their disposable income. Am I the only who thinks they'd run out long before they reached something as thoroughly banal as Titan Quest?

So let's not conflate two separate issues here. Piracy is detrimental to the industry. Shit games are detrimental to the industry, and themselves.

 

[Section8]

But pirates didn't shut down Iron Lore, which is where his pain is coming from. So isn't it weird that he's not ranting at all - not even mentioning - the popular publisher model of the gaming industry which means there is zero interest in supporting developing houses like Iron Lore or Troika (the situation with the two really was similar).

It's not weird, because <drumroll>... he's a producer for THQ!

 

[Disconnected]

Naked Ninja you're talking about selling sand in the desert. You're complaining that people won't buy your sand when the entire desert is there for free. You're advocating legal action against people who aren't stupid enough to cross the fucking desert to buy sand from you.

It isn't sane.

If you want people to have your sand, you need money to build up your sand stores, and need to make a profit on top of it, the last people on Earth you want to ask money of, is the people in the desert. Instead, make people want your sand, give it to them for free, and get your funding and profits from all the guys who sell the shit people in deserts actually buy. If they can bootstrap their shit on to your well-loved, free sand, they'll make a killing.

... I give up. I don't know how to get the message across to you man, You're to damn hardheaded.

 

[DoppelG]

Imo, you have piracy and piracy.
The one will torrent a game (or movie or music cd, whatever) once in a while (wich they probably wouldn't have bought anyways, and if its any good and he voiced that over the internet it is positive advertisement)
The other is a malecious piece of total crap who pirates whatever and sells it by the thousends to other pieces of shit, i wouldn't care if they spent 10 years behind bars, good riddance.
Have no clue what the ratios are though, forget about trying to figure that out in Asia.
The first example is a necesarry evil, the second is an evil i want to see burned at the stackes.

 

[Naked Ninja]

What exactly are you "losing" when someone pirates your game? It's not like theft, where you lose an asset irretrievably. The only thing you "lose" are potential customers - but you can also argue that you gain them through education and familiarity.

Oh thats bull and you know it. Have you never pirated something before? You get a game you want for free and the motivation to pay for it is almost 0 afterwards. You tell your friends it's cool and generally they will ask you for a ripped copy. Gained through education my ass.

Why do many MMOGs have free weekends, weeks, months, etc?

Many. There is a difference between a time and content limited taste to influence you to buy the game and a free and full copy sitting on your drive for as long as you feel like playing it. Dude, cut it out, you're smarter than this nonsense.

Wow! They sure showed them! That's an abysmal conversion rate. All it takes is for those thousand pirates to recommend the game to two more ethical customers, either directly or indirectly and you've got double the conversion rate for letting rampant pirates market for you. Does that seem that far fetched to you?

Yes. Incredibly far-fetched. Each pirate will share it with a few friends, who will share it with their friends, etc etc...read the article. With that "abysmal conversion rate" they upped sales 70% and enabled them to grow their company further. This is pretty frikken clear. When thwarted in their desires, most pirates give up, but enough will then buy it legitimately to justify it.

You shouldn't blame the issues ... etc... thoroughly banal as Titan Quest?

Argument dismissed for personal bias. I got it, you didn't like the game. It didn't do it for me either. But get a grip on this now, it's colouring your logic. I wouldnt buy the reflexive guys 2D shooter clone either, yet clamping piracy converted 1 in 1000 pirates, people who liked what I don't, a miniscule fraction. Yet enough to return 70% greater profits. This is incredibly telling.

 

[Section8]

Oh and incidentally, since this discussion seem to be taking a turn toward "who killed Iron Lore?":

“Core Titan Quest game play is very similar to Diablo, because Diablo basically defined the genre,” Sullivan said. “Most RTS games and most shooters have core game play that is also very similar to other games in the genre. I think if there were more games in the action RPG genre, we would not be perceived as a clone, because all the other games would also have similar game play. Titan Quest is innovative in many areas including topic, class system, and editor, to name a few.”

Would you give this guy a development contract? That's delusion that can only be measured on the Molyneux scale.

He's completely missed the point that - stale though they are, RTSs have evolved from Herzog Zwei, and that shooters have evolved from Wolfenstein 3D - and those that didn't evolve were branded clones, just like the case with Diablo. More action RPGs wouldn't have magically lifted TQs clone status, they would have made it even less viable as a commercial prospect.

As for the "innovation" - Topic system? Completely irrelevant. Fluff feature that most players would be completely unaware of. Class system? Didn't Diablo 2 et al have this? Editor? If there's one sure-fire way to make an action RPG less compelling, it's giving the player editors. Why treadmill/jump online in search of your ideal loot etc, when you can just create it?

I recommend people read this Gamasutra article. It's a Bulletball-like tragicomedy. He swings from talking about how the game is a labour of love to how it was made to fill a yawning gap in the Action RPG market, to how WoW is killing off PC games to lamenting development costs.

 

[Hory]

I'm just afraid of the game that will wipe out your harddisk and the BIOS, if possible, when it detects a pirated install. In order to avoid ulterior suing, couldn't they just slip a legal clause in the EULA (which most people don't read)? But they'd have to have an error free authenticity-checking system.

 

[Raapys]

If developers are so sad and think their jobs are so difficult and they can't make any money then why don't they simply stop (making games/investing money in games) and do something else?