Baldur's Gate ToB is worse than SoD, change my mind

[Fargus]

Devastator BG1 is a big game that is fairly self contained. BG2 is a massive game that ends with a crescendo and could easily be its own self-contained adventure. You could very well be 250 hours deep by the time you get to Throne of Bhaal. Some fatigue is understandable. I think the biggest problem are the hubs. Neither Saradush nor Amketheran or particularly good locations. They're kind of annoying to get around and lack the compelling quests for BG2 or the believable flesh-out quality of Baldur's Gate itself.

This

 

[Onionguy]

but what about bg3? is it decent my bois?

 

[Fargus]

Best thing since sliced bread, amigo

 

[Peachcurl]

but what about bg3? is it decent my bois?

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

In retrospect, the intro was probably the part of the game I enjoyed most.

Notice how the TOB intro starts out in old comfy 3D like all BG intros, but then slowly merges into two distinct 2D cheap artstyles.

The first shitty TOB artstyle:

... is reminiscent of parts of the DAO intro artstyle:

The second shitty TOB artstyle:

... is reminiscent of NWN.

Note that both are in shades of yellow, i.e. piss.

And sure enough, TOB's writing was as trite and boring as NWN and DAO.

Every time I replay the series, I end up dropping the game halfway through TOB.

Can't wait for AI tools to fix the game somehow, maybe 20 years from now.

 

[Devastator]

Glad to see this thread is still well alive. I took a deep breath and finished it in one go, including dealing with the annoying "Karen" Amelyssan. It felt great to finally conclude the saga, but I wish they had fleshed out this expansion a lot more. As it stands, they could have easily cut 50% of the content (i.e. filler) without losing anything significant. I guess it feels like they were aiming to hit a specific number of hours without having a clear vision of how to do it properly.

I’ll take a few weeks off cRPGs before moving on to BG3. Honestly, I don’t really consider it Baldur’s Gate. It feels more like something inspired by it, a more fleshed-out DoS. Still, for the sake of consistency, it feels like the right moment to play it. It will give me a good opportunity to compare it to BG1 and BG2, whose legacy it arrogantly assumes to inherit.

Devastator BG1 is a big game that is fairly self contained. BG2 is a massive game that ends with a crescendo and could easily be its own self-contained adventure. You could very well be 250 hours deep by the time you get to Throne of Bhaal. Some fatigue is understandable. I think the biggest problem are the hubs. Neither Saradush nor Amketheran or particularly good locations. They're kind of annoying to get around and lack the compelling quests for BG2 or the believable inhabited quality of Baldur's Gate itself.

Good point. As I was nearing the end of the game, I couldn’t help but notice the lack of decent cities or hubs in the expansion. Even the coalition camps in SoD were far better than anything ToB had to offer. As cringe-worthy as SoD could be, at least you could wander around the camp, talk to people at your own pace, and settle into a location before progressing.

Looking back, I don’t even like the pocket plane. Sure, the concept is sound and adequately explained, but I dislike how it was executed. For one, it feels cheap that you can access the pocket plane at will from anywhere, which makes travel and navigation feel less natural. Even worse, I absolutely detest when a game takes control away from the player. ToB does this constantly by pulling you into the pocket plane against your will so that the annoying Solar can lecture you. Seriously? My OCD brain is busy obsessing over the cool items the boss just dropped. I’m mentally visualizing them lying on the ground, and all I want to do is pick them up and sort them neatly into my backpack. But no. Here comes the Solar to interrupt and derail my immersion. Can you please stop talking so I can enjoy the game I paid for? It was already frustrating in BG1 and BG2 when the game would randomly take control away, reshuffle your party, and ruin your carefully planned formation (often throwing vulnerable backline into the grinder).

 

[rojay]

Glad to see this thread is still well alive. I took a deep breath and finished it in one go, including dealing with the annoying "Karen" Amelyssan. It felt great to finally conclude the saga, but I wish they had fleshed out this expansion a lot more. As it stands, they could have easily cut 50% of the content (i.e. filler) without losing anything significant. I guess it feels like they were aiming to hit a specific number of hours without having a clear vision of how to do it properly.

I’ll take a few weeks off cRPGs before moving on to BG3. Honestly, I don’t really consider it Baldur’s Gate. It feels more like something inspired by it, a more fleshed-out DoS. Still, for the sake of consistency, it feels like the right moment to play it. It will give me a good opportunity to compare it to BG1 and BG2, whose legacy it arrogantly assumes to inherit.

Devastator BG1 is a big game that is fairly self contained. BG2 is a massive game that ends with a crescendo and could easily be its own self-contained adventure. You could very well be 250 hours deep by the time you get to Throne of Bhaal. Some fatigue is understandable. I think the biggest problem are the hubs. Neither Saradush nor Amketheran or particularly good locations. They're kind of annoying to get around and lack the compelling quests for BG2 or the believable inhabited quality of Baldur's Gate itself.

Good point. As I was nearing the end of the game, I couldn’t help but notice the lack of decent cities or hubs in the expansion. Even the coalition camps in SoD were far better than anything ToB had to offer. As cringe-worthy as SoD could be, at least you could wander around the camp, talk to people at your own pace, and settle into a location before progressing.

Looking back, I don’t even like the pocket plane. Sure, the concept is sound and adequately explained, but I dislike how it was executed. For one, it feels cheap that you can access the pocket plane at will from anywhere, which makes travel and navigation feel less natural. Even worse, I absolutely detest when a game takes control away from the player. ToB does this constantly by pulling you into the pocket plane against your will so that the annoying Solar can lecture you. Seriously? My OCD brain is busy obsessing over the cool items the boss just dropped. I’m mentally visualizing them lying on the ground, and all I want to do is pick them up and sort them neatly into my backpack. But no. Here comes the Solar to interrupt and derail my immersion. Can you please stop talking so I can enjoy the game I paid for? It was already frustrating in BG1 and BG2 when the game would randomly take control away, reshuffle your party, and ruin your carefully planned formation (often throwing vulnerable backline into the grinder).

It's not really Baldur's Gate 3 despite some plot connections and a couple of returning companions. I understand why they did it, but I wish they'd gone a different route and made a new D&D game.

It's a pretty fun game if you can get past the soap-opera plot and the horniness of the companions but I took a break just before the endgame and before I had the itch to finish it, my gaming computer's power-jack port went kaput. That was months ago and I've been too lazy to get it fixed. When I do, it will be because I have ToEE installed on it and I'd like to play one of the new modules that have been released. I don't mind installing GoG on the computer my office provided me, but I really don't want to try futzing with everything necessary to get ToEE up and running on it.

When I mentioned being able to get past plot/horniness, I am in that number and I thought SoD was pretty good despite the ham-handed trans NPC and the weakly characterized new companions. Some of the mini-dungeons were well done and it was pretty cool to have large-scale battles in the engine. I'll probably play through it again the next time I play the series but I'm not sure I have the desire to run through ToB again at this point. I guess I prefer SoD.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

pulling you into the pocket plane against your will so that the annoying Solar can lecture you. Seriously? My OCD brain is busy obsessing over the cool items the boss just dropped. I’m mentally visualizing them lying on the ground, and all I want to do is pick them up and sort them neatly into my backpack. But no. Here comes the Solar

This. So much this.

 

[Average Manatee]

Comparing ToB to BG1 and 2 is not fair IMO. It is an expansion to BG2, and if you compare it to Tales of the Sword Coast it is miles ahead overall.

SoD's problems are:
- Entire plot is dumb. It has no personal hook for the player like BG1 (Darth Vader Sarevok killed your father) or BG2 (Irenicus stole your soul, also kidnapped Imoen who you may care about from BG1 and otherwise should care about now that it's revealed she is your sister), and ToB is obviously the continuation of Bhaal saga where the player is now a powerful player and making a play for godhood.
- Ruins BG1 lore. Sarevok was supposed to be on the run, his 4 lackeys you kill with him in the finale were literally the last supporters he had. Even his girlfriend Tamoko (who supported him in the prologue battle vs Gorion and probably saved his ass there) has given up on him. Yet the first quarter of SoD is all about Sarevok's legacy as if he was some kind of cult leader.
- Ruins Irenicus. He's now some weird stalker. It makes zero sense that he doesn't just kidnap the player whenever he feels like it given he's a level 30 mage. Also the weird hamfisted plot to pin the murder of one of the npcs no one takes in BG1 on you which the whole city suddenly believes despite you being a multiple time hero of the city and there being no motive for you to kill her.
- Copies content from IWD1 and proceeds to ruin that game as well, amazingly enough. You somehow shit on Belhifet, who was barely defeated by a party of 6 level 16ish characters in IWD, at level 9/10. This despite the fact that you face him in hell where he's supposed to be incredibly more powerful. Indeed you fight through a horde of demons to take him down in his literal throne room.
- Saddles you with the worst party choices. You're actually better off just creating your own party and treating the game as an IWD sequel with some crazy people talking about bhaalspawn.

SoD does have some good area and encounter design. It also exists in that sweet spot of level 7-10 where the combat system plays best IMO. But that's about it.

As much of a drag as ToB is it never feels like it diminished other games in the serious or was outright awful, it was just a general letdown.

 

[Krivol]

It's a hard pick. SoD really has shitty writing, terrible characters, and stupid plot, but some encounters were cool, and I like itemisation in SoD.

Also, ToB is the end of 100-200 hours of killing enemies, so you can be very, very, VERY bored then.

ToB is similar to BG3 3rd Act: constant bossfights with boring exploration; when you are not fighting bosses, you are bored to death. Not that SoD is much better in that regard.

 

[Serious_Business]

I don't know what SoD is, but yeah, ToB is pretty bad. Some good fights with SCS (the rest is complete shite), but it bogs down anyway. Mostly because of the pre-buff dynamics in my opinion, which aren't so bad up to that point, but it starts to feel like you're playing an Owlcat Pathfinder game when you have to rotate the stoneskin, mirror image, protection agaisnt fire, agaisnt stupidity, agaisnt mild irritation and so on. I already have to cast all of this in my everyday life, so you know, it gets to be a bit of an energy drain. That's why I cast protection agaisnt energy drain, but then, no, I, what, I don't, how can I

 

[BasicMagician]

Yeah, ToB drags. The power creep is nice, but the endless hordes of weak enemies are a snoozefest.

 

[HumanTotemPole]

I don't know what SoD is, but yeah, ToB is pretty bad. Some good fights with SCS (the rest is complete shite), but it bogs down anyway. Mostly because of the pre-buff dynamics in my opinion, which aren't so bad up to that point, but it starts to feel like you're playing an Owlcat Pathfinder game when you have to rotate the stoneskin, mirror image, protection agaisnt fire, agaisnt stupidity, agaisnt mild irritation and so on. I already have to cast all of this in my everyday life, so you know, it gets to be a bit of an energy drain. That's why I cast protection agaisnt energy drain, but then, no, I, what, I don't, how can I

Hard to know how to manage pre-buffing in general. Fun stacking up at first but lord knows I've gotten pretty jaded by the end in most games where I've used it consistently.

 

[sebas]

SoD's problems are:

Yeah, it's truly bad even by fanfic standards.

 

[GaelicVigil]

My Experience So Far:

1. BG1: I found it to be surprisingly fantastic. Despite a lot of wandering outdoors, it remains enjoyable, a solid 9/10. ToTSC was good overall, with Durlag's Tower being my favorite dungeon in the series.
2. SoD: It was mostly mediocre, about a 7/10. It did provide decent filler between the two main games. I found Caelar to be too cringey, making me roll my eyes whenever she spoke. The writing was mediocre, and it was frustrating how much they tried to inflate my ego (cue the endless "hero" praise). However, the Irenicus parts were well-executed; I genuinely hated him for his betrayal, so the story succeeded there. The campaign felt far too linear, though.
3. BG2: This one surprised me with how well it holds up. I enjoyed it even more than expected, rating it 9.5/10. The pacing is a bit off, as you do almost everything in CH2 and then rush to the end, but it was still a blast. It improves on BG1 in several ways, like attention to detail in locations and plenty of banter.

My only question is why did you take a break from the Baldur's Gate series and play something else in the middle?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Maybe its because I played with SCS and Ascension, but I like the enemies in ToB. The boss fights are varied, spectacular, and challenging. Set piece fights are practically half of ToB, so that's great. I don't mind the areas where you cut through armies. It's not that these are mooks, your party is simply made of demigods. This was a design choice by Bioware to give the player power fantasy and perspective of how far they've come. Even still, there are plenty of areas that can get out of hand if not on your toes like the Fire Giant Temple, Watcher's Keep, and even Gromnir's Keep.

I also use aTweaks and PnP restoration mods which give fiends their true AD&D stats and abilities. That is a massive difficulty increase, especially in ToB where fiends are everywhere. These creatures actually become genuinely frightening to deal with, rather than just another battlefield consideration.

I would love to see the large scale battles in ToB updated for the EE engine. Its sad that SoD has a better representation of fighting armies due only to technology limitations. I would sometimes go to Yaga Shura's camp before getting his heart and see how long my party could hold out against the endless waves. The fire giants and higher level enemies (lieutenants, captains) interspersed with the mooks would make the endless battle good fun.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Motivation: I decided to write this after finding the Monk in Abazigal's lair. I couldn't help but sigh (again!) and think,You've got to be kidding me. It’s absurd that this guy is guarded by 900 puny mobs who just stand there, only to immediately die after I stop talking to him.

Background: I'm replaying the entire Baldur’s Gate series, including BG1, BG2, and BG3, along with all expansions, as a mage character.

My Experience So Far:

1. BG1: I found it to be surprisingly fantastic. Despite a lot of wandering outdoors, it remains enjoyable, a solid 9/10. ToTSC was good overall, with Durlag's Tower being my favorite dungeon in the series.
2. SoD: It was mostly mediocre, about a 7/10. It did provide decent filler between the two main games. I found Caelar to be too cringey, making me roll my eyes whenever she spoke. The writing was mediocre, and it was frustrating how much they tried to inflate my ego (cue the endless "hero" praise). However, the Irenicus parts were well-executed; I genuinely hated him for his betrayal, so the story succeeded there. The campaign felt far too linear, though.
3. BG2: This one surprised me with how well it holds up. I enjoyed it even more than expected, rating it 9.5/10. The pacing is a bit off, as you do almost everything in CH2 and then rush to the end, but it was still a blast. It improves on BG1 in several ways, like attention to detail in locations and plenty of banter.

The Problem: ToB

I’m struggling to keep playing without taking breaks. The only redeeming feature is the equipment that makes my characters godlike. The writing feels uninspired, the pacing is terrible, and everything is overly linear. There are too many trash mobs; I sometimes feel like I’m playing Icewind Dale (which I’m not a fan of).

A part of me thinks this is worse than SoD, but another part disagrees. Still, I find ToB more frustrating than SoD. I guess SoD felt more cringey, but SoD feels more boring? Maybe SoD felt more tolerable because I had just finished BG1 and was excited to get into the even better BG2. By the time I reached ToB, I was perhaps already fatigued from the long journey through all the previous titles. I might just be out of patience.

Maybe Watcher's Keep is its only redeeming quality but it's not as good as Durlag.

It's been so long since I last played ToB that I can’t even recall when it was, but I definitely don’t remember it being this underwhelming. In my next replay (which won’t be anytime soon), I think I’ll just skip SoD and ToB entirely.

TOB sucks, I played it for an hour. Its not really its fault. High level D&D is just not fun. Anything after level 12 starts suck, better to just start a new adventure. That is we did it way back when I was a kid playing AD&D in the early 1980s...around level 12 (which took a long time to get to), we retired the characters and started over.

 

[octavius]

I don't agree. Try the aTweaks mod that Mr. Magnificent mentioned that make fiends like their p&p versions. That's some fun high lever monster killing.
The first fight with a real difference is the last one at Ulgoth's Beard; really brutal (in a fun way) stuff with that mod installed.

Pools of Darkness and Dark Queen of Krynn were also great high level AD&D adventures.