Review ToEE slapped around at Game Revolution

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Well, Otaku, if you read the comments from the beginning, you would notice that we didn't argue about an abstract concept of fun in games, but about a specific situation that is already in the game. I offered a somewhat logical explanation so that people who complain about the way identify works could move on and have fun.

And if you had read my comment, you would have noticed that I said it REMINDED me and not that it echoed the above comments in any way. I was merely waxing philisophic over something I remembered, NOT trying to slam any comments or lean towards one way or the other.

I happen to agree that identify should only give so much info and feel lore is the skill for getting more info out of an item. Kinda like a historian type deal. :D

This actually brings to mind one of my favorite things about TOEE, and it's a small thing, but really blew me away because it sooooo fit in the whole RPG vein. The fact that when you move your cursor over someone, you don't get their name. And you don't get their name until you've talked with them and introduced yourself. That is like way cool and one little touch that adds a whole bunch of flavor into the mix. A case where realism rocks! :D

 

[Sol Invictus]

There are numbers. The way it's done in ToEE at this point (the patch may change it) is that you have to try it (put it on, whack somebody with a sword) and see if them numbers have changed. Not the most convinient way, I agree, but a way nonetheless.

No there aren't. THere are no fucking numbers. I still don't know what the hell the Cloak of Elvenkind does because according to the files it looks nothing like what it looks like in the SRD.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There are numbers. The way it's done in ToEE at this point (the patch may change it) is that you have to try it (put it on, whack somebody with a sword) and see if them numbers have changed. Not the most convinient way, I agree, but a way nonetheless.

No there aren't. THere are no fucking numbers. I still don't know what the hell the Cloak of Elvenkind does because according to the files it looks nothing like what it looks like in the SRD.

It gives you +5 to hide. You can easily see that if you put it on and check your skills. It's not a rocket science, really.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

Now that type of thing, I don't like. If you're going to show the effect to the player in one screen, why not just save everyone the hassle and tell them what it is upfront and save all the needless time searching through screens.

I was just thinking about it, and i think <wish> that it would be very cool to have a stat sheet showing the numbers that the player believed to be true</wish>. I can't remember any time a cursed item was ever a hindrance because I always seem to know immediately if an item was cursed and not use it. But if i picked up a long sword -3, identified it(failed), as a long sword +2 and had it show up in my stats as a long sword +2(15%) that would be quite cool...

 

[Vault Dweller]

That would be cool indeed. I think it would be good if items would have several levels of attributes: immediate effects - clearly visible right away, like +2 to hit, special effects - effects that manifest under certain conditions like to hit vs orcs, or become cursed after killing a human, or always hit, etc; and beliefs - what player believes this tem is, it could be any combination of true and false facts depending on different factors - enchantements, rumors, lies, observations ( a perceptive character could notice that the sword never misses a goblin - which could be true or could be a result of lucky rolls), etc.

While we are on a topic, I think that player should have an option in crpgs to hype his item(s) and try to convince shopkeepers that his regularly looking +1 sword is actually +3 vs goblins especially if the player so believes.

 

[Azael]

It gives you +5 to hide. You can easily see that if you put it on and check your skills. It's not a rocket science, really.

That's still a shitty way of doing it if you ask me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I never said it was the best way of doing things, and that everybody should embrace it right away unless they are stupid AlI I said was that it makes sense "technically", and then replied to Saint and Exitium who were under false impression that there are no numbers to relate to. Otherwise, I'm with you, fellas. It's an outrage! *starts to write a very angry letter to Tim Cain, President Bush, and Kofi Annan demanding to review this sensitive issue untill it's too late.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I never said it was the best way of doing things, and that everybody should embrace it right away unless they are stupid AlI I said was that it makes sense "technically", and then replied to Saint and Exitium who were under false impression that there are no numbers to relate to. Otherwise, I'm with you, fellas. It's an outrage! *starts to write a very angry letter to Tim Cain, President Bush, and Kofi Annan demanding to review this sensitive issue untill it's too late.

Okay, have fun digging through the character sheet to tell me what the Unicorn Ring does, or a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hmm, what does the ring of freedom of movement do? We have freedom and we have movement, so together it makes....no, I give up, I was very close, but I couldn't put all the pieces together. Now, if it was a ring of movement of freedom..no, that sounds like communism and I don't think that communism made it into 3E...

Btw, obviously the character sheet could only reflect items that have numeric values like the elven cloak, but I'll go and check if it's reflected somewhere else.

 

[Spazmo]

Well, Vault Dweller, if it's not the best way of doing it and there's a much better way of doing it, why do you keep defending this way of doing it? Just admit that ToEE has a flaw. It's not that hard, you know.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Alright, alright, you have a point. ToEE has a flaw. I was very surprised when I identified a magic cloak for the first time and all I got was "the cloak of elvenkind". Doh! 100 gold coins for that?

But it's not such a big deal as some people make out of it. Like I said, it's surprising after playing the IE games, but it's definitely not a game ruining experience. I didn't defend the way Troika did it, I simply provided an alternative explanation and a way to handle it, i.e. looking at the char sheets, etc. Then I had to deal with people who tried to poke holes in my theory , but your point scored a critical, there is no point arguing about something that could have been done better. Given a choice I'd definitely prefer to see more information about items, spells, and such. Happy now?

 

[Peacedog]

So what does the unicorn ring do anyway?

 

[Jed]

So what does the unicorn ring do anyway?

Ever hear of Viagra? This is the magical precursor...

 

[Vault Dweller]

I finally found it, but now that Spazmo has convinced me to join the Dark Side, my quest for knowledge is pointless and thus my secret shall die with me. My last words on this topic: the ring has a purpose, the game does show the effect if you are paying attention and check roll links, and it's usable, as I expected, by one class only.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

I always found it funny how shopkeepers know exactly what you're selling and what its value is....and usually have a bag of holding filled with lewt to both sell and provide coinage...

But that's always been one of those chronic problems plaguing RPGs. The economic model just doesn't stand up (the religious model is the same). To be fair, it's not the fault of the pc or the developer, it's just that d&d (and rpgs) have largely not been thought out to an extent that really could hold up under scrutiny...

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I always found it funny how shopkeepers know exactly what you're selling and what its value is....and usually have a bag of holding filled with lewt to both sell and provide coinage...

But that's always been one of those chronic problems plaguing RPGs. The economic model just doesn't stand up (the religious model is the same). To be fair, it's not the fault of the pc or the developer, it's just that d&d (and rpgs) have largely not been thought out to an extent that really could hold up under scrutiny...

Also, WHERE do they get all those scrolls of Identify? :shock:

LOL.. I mean, come on, I had the blacksmith in Hommlet ID like fifty items I had grabbed during a run through the temple. He's a cleric, so obviously does not have the identify spell. Do you know how much fifty scrolls of identify would cost?

 

[Sol Invictus]

He is of a merchant class, which is a non-playable class in D&D. He gets access to all those sorts of skills. However, TOEE is rather 'dumbed down' in that way. Pen and Paper D&D strict rules doesn't even allow you to add certain feats during the course of your adventures - you need to go back to town and find a trainer to teach you how to gain Combat Expertise, for instance.

Most people just ignore these rules, though - but Planescape: Torment didn't. I wish Troika did the game more along the lines of Arcanum than Baldur's Gate.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Most people just ignore these rules, though - but Planescape: Torment didn't. I wish Troika did the game more along the lines of Arcanum than Baldur's Gate.

Mmm..... Planescape:Torment.... such a great game. The interaction with your NPCs in that game was classic and I wish they had that sort of depth in TOEE. Still, it's a great game in it's own rights. More of a strategy game than all the other DnD rpgs out there. The more I mess around with all the different combat options, the more and more I start loving this game. But, I do agree with the more like Arcanum quote. More open endedness = more fun.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

He is of a merchant class, which is a non-playable class in D&D. He gets access to all those sorts of skills. However, TOEE is rather 'dumbed down' in that way. Pen and Paper D&D strict rules doesn't even allow you to add certain feats during the course of your adventures - you need to go back to town and find a trainer to teach you how to gain Combat Expertise, for instance.

I've always wondered why they even bother with things like this.. And if the NPCs can be merchants and do things like this, why can't the characters whom are actively playing not do things like that?