Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #24: Tides, Combat Systems and Q&A

[FeelTheRads]

I think that RTwP would be better for TTON because of it's approach to combat as a part of a whole bigger way of conceiving adversity, aka "crisis".

I don't get what you mean. Want to explain?

Edit: Oh, jeez, wait. Wasn't Drog in Japan or something? Is this his most obvious alt and I've fallen for it?

 

[Scruffy]

i'm already wondering how i'll metagame to obtain a certain value in a certain tide to craft more powerful stuff

 

[doshu]

Nope, I'm not Drog.

As for explanations, I realize I haven't done a lot of that either. Don't really have the time right now, preparing a long w-e off. But it's mostly a feeling that I got, haven't put it down to proper words yet.

 

[hiver]

hiver posts are sensible most of the time.
The coherent part depends on his mood, but at least he has something to say when he wants to put the effort.

Not really no. Youre all mistaking coherence for the style of argument - i.e. you, or rather, most of people - accept posts written in "nicer style" regardless of what is the content, logic and reasoning of the argument.
Its like those casuals who like games for their graphikz.
Of course i get that anger and rage aren't nice to read, especially if you dont follow the beginning of the argument and dont see reasons for it - but im not in the business of writing nice just so some random people would think "oh thats nice", while on the other side blatant stupidity is not nice for me to read either.

So were equal looking from that angle.
Always an even trade.

And to have chaotic heretic criticizing me for not being up to his taste in coherence and sensibility must be some sort of comedy in on itself.

How about replying to hiver? He told you why you're wrong.

Why do that when actual arguments can be simply skipped while a moron simply continues stupidly claiming things he prefers by vomiting unsupported empty statements like he just did?
And then he lies i didnt explain myself or he doesnt even understand what i told him. And refuses the argument by pretending it was the other side that simply doesnt explain their position - while he is the one doing it.

And then im supposed to talk nicely to him?
Its always the same shit.

The very fact that there wont be that many combat encounters speaks that TB is the better solution.

The above is not what I would call sensible. He only affirm his truth without any other form of argumentation. Like everyone should agree because, you know, it's the CODEX! Which means TB dude, yo!

First, i think this issue should be clear to anyone with a brain and some basic knowledge about these types of cRPG games.
RtwP is a system that is best suited for combat heavy games, or games that have no other gameplay then combat.
If a game has little combat encounters - and they are hand crafted to boot, and there is other gameplay besides combat - then TB is a better choice. Mechanically. because it is a deeper system that reinforces character skills importance and effect rather then player skills - which is what this type of cRPG should be and play like.

- that you stupidly just prefer RTwP is no concern of mine at all.

Secondly, following that with a stupid blatant strawman doesnt really inspire nice answers in return. Codex is not some blind TB bastion at all and all of us here played most of RPGs ever released, including abominations from bethpizda and biocrap, not to mention good games that used RTwP such as BG games, Icewind dale games and so on.


Thirdly, claiming i didnt explain my statement while you havent done the same for any of yourse is laughable. The fact that you quoted only that one line while you just simply skipped over the rest - and then just claim youre some sort of fucking righteous hero - will only get you the "stupid shit" reply from me.

 

[Rake]

hiver posts are sensible most of the time.
The coherent part depends on his mood, but at least he has something to say when he wants to put the effort.

Not really no. Youre all mistaking coherence for the style of argument - i.e. you, or rather, most of people - accept posts written in "nicer style" regardless of what is the content, logic and reasoning of the argument.
Its like those casuals who like games for their graphikz.
Of course i get that anger and rage aren't nice to read, especially if you dont follow the beginning of the argument and dont see reasons for it - but im not in the business of writing nice just so some random people would think "oh thats nice", while on the other side blatant stupidity is not nice for me to read either.

So were equal looking from that angle.
Always an even trade.

And to have chaotic heretic criticizing me for not being up to his taste in coherence and sensibility must be some sort of comedy in on itself.

Oh, it's not that i have a problem with the way you post. In fact i prefer it from the passive aggresive way some others try to insult someone. It's just that if someone makes you angry or posts stupid things repeatetly, you kind of give up on him and the discussion and start to over relying in emoticons and straight insults instead of answers. So, as you said, someone who hasn't followed the arguement from the beginning can't see reasons for it and thinks the post is incohernt

 

[Darkzone]

Romaji de.
Konbanwa doshusan.
RTwP wa ii, demo taihen desu.

 

[hiver]

Oh, it's not that i have a problem with the way you post. In fact i prefer it from the passive aggresive way some others try to insult someone. It's just that if someone makes you angry or posts stupid things repeatetly, you kind of give up on him and the discussion and start to over relying in emoticons and straight insults instead of answers. So, as you said, someone who hasn't folloed the arguement from the beginning can't see reasons for it and thinks the post is incohernt

Yeah. Also - occasionally i do write something thats not that smart and make some spelling mistakes - just like anyone else.

Except maybe janjetina or you and a couple of other posters. Which i think its great. Because that makes me think i could do better and gives direct examples.
Of course, youre too young still, in couple of years youll be a ranting lunatic like the rest of us

Except janjetina... i dont know whats his problem man...

 

[Rake]

Of course, youre too young still, in couple of years youll be a ranting lunatic like the rest of us

Long exposure to the Codex can do that. I try to stay away from GD in a vain attempt to postpone the inevitable

 

[Bilgefar]

There is no place for RTwP in this game. In other games, perhaps, but not in Torment. Was one game almost ruined by RTWP not enough?

I am in favor of TB, but PS:T was not "almost ruined by RTWP". It's combat issues were waaaaayyyyyyyy deeper than just the fact that it was RTwP. If they just swapped, for example, the RTwP with Fallout's system (shitty RTwP for shitty TB), it definitely wouldn't have fixed anything, and arguably would have made it worse.

 

[hiver]

That would be true if you could just swap one system for another - but you cant. Each demands its specific adaptations.

 

[Bilgefar]

Well obviously. But terrible encounter design is not a specific adaptation for RTwP, and that above all else ruined PS:T's combat.

 

[cherry blossom]

I thought that RTWP simply didn't fit in with the game's vision because apart from specific encounters, combat was largely pointless and inconsequential and was disconnected from the rest of the game where every other aspect of the game, ie. your observation of your surroundings, crafting items, solving puzzles and dialogue, came together in harmony with each part reaffirming others while combat felt like this obsolete piece of leftovers carried over from previous IE games, slapped on as an afterthought in a place where it doesn't quite belong. Combat should have retained the same kind of active consideration, interaction and unraveling of things as the other systems; about your opponents, your abilities and how you could use what is available to you in creative ways. And such an approach would best fit TB in my opinion. And it is sad that the special combat encounters that should have been challenging and thought provoking mostly felt like average combat encounters from previous IE games. To me anyway.

So when I say RTWP almost killed the game, I think of the possibility that they could have spammed the game with trash mobs to "justify" it.

 

[Infinitron]

So when I say RTWP almost killed the game, I think of the possibility that they could have spammed the game with trash mobs to "justify" it.

I doubt that much thought went into PS:T's combat encounters.

It was a game developed almost entirely by a writer who isn't very good at actually playing CRPGs. I don't think PS:T's bad combat needs any more than explanation than that.

To me, T:ToN's combat (in particular, the Crises) sounds like what PS:T's combat should have been like.

 

[cherry blossom]

That's the thing. Writer(s) design big portion of the game, neglecting combat. It could easily be that higher ups (not sure if Brian was involved with the game at the time but I think not) saw that as a shortcoming and give a directive to "increase combat opportunities".

 

[hiver]

Well obviously. But terrible encounter design is not a specific adaptation for RTwP, and that above all else ruined PS:T's combat.

well, basically whenever i played it i figured that was the most that old cranky engine was capable of.
So i was actually ok with it - good for what it is with some unsepected bonuses and perks in other forms. I was never one of those that actually hate it completely.

it was covered a lot by great companions and their skills and weird items and somewhat unusual spells and magic system. Plus the enemies were interesting at least thematically, or by their concept and style.
and - after all, you went through decent amount of gameplay without fighting, all together. Or you could if you wanted too.


- but i did have visions of it playing in turn based, .. just a few tweaks here and there.. some nice grid, tougher enemies... mm-mm.
(if you play as a fighter later youre really just moving down everything - people are missing on that when they go and play only the mage - really. its fun in its own PST way.)

 

[oljebox]

That's the thing. Writer(s) design big portion of the game, neglecting combat. It could easily be that higher ups (not sure if Brian was involved with the game at the time but I think not) saw that as a shortcoming and give a directive to "increase combat opportunities".

That's not really how games work. At best, the writers collaborate with everyone else on the team, at worst, they're an afterthought that's brought in at the end to connect the dots between events (i.e. combat). I can't think of a single game where:

writer > everyone else

Spoiler

inb4 Metal Gear

That kind of a setup is just asking for disaster.

 

[tuluse]

I doubt that much thought went into PS:T's combat encounters.

It was a game developed almost entirely by a writer who isn't very good at actually playing CRPGs. I don't think PS:T's bad combat needs any more than explanation than that.

To me, T:ToN's combat (in particular, the Crises) sounds like what PS:T's combat should have been like.

I don't think this works because as much as PST is described as close to a one man project as a game can be, there were still other designers, producers, scripters, etc working on the game.

At any time they could have made the combat more interesting.

 

[Athelas]

Here's a fun fact:

However, Planescape: Torment was being developed using the Infinity Engine before Baldur's Gate had been released, leaving the engine's acceptance in the market still unknown. Black Isle made modifications to the engine to suit the game.

Which would explain things like why the pathfinding is signifcantly worse than any other IE game. Sounds like the Infinity Engine was still being worked on at the time. Not sure who designed the Curst/Carceri section, but it's only there that I found the trash mobs to be truly insufferable.

I never noticed it, but it's rather funny that the game about deconstructing the typical fantasy RPG was being developed BEFORE the quintessential fantasy cRPG.

 

[cherry blossom]

That is news to me, and is interesting.

 

[Infinitron]

Here's a fun fact:

However, Planescape: Torment was being developed using the Infinity Engine before Baldur's Gate had been released, leaving the engine's acceptance in the market still unknown. Black Isle made modifications to the engine to suit the game.

Which would explain things like why the pathfinding is signifcantly worse than any other IE game. Sounds like the Infinity Engine was still being worked on at the time. Not sure who designed the Curst/Carceri section, but it's only there that I found the trash mobs to be truly insufferable.

I never noticed it, but it's rather funny that the game about deconstructing the typical fantasy RPG was being developed BEFORE the quintessential fantasy cRPG.

That is news to me, and is interesting.

Ahem, just a second. Just because PS:T was being developed before Baldur's Gate was released doesn't mean it was in development before Baldur's Gate began development! It most certainly did not - Baldur's Gate began development all the way back in 1995, I think. So, the guys at Black Isle already had a good idea of what sort of game Baldur's Gate was when they made Torment.

 

[Bilgefar]

well, basically whenever i played it i figured that was the most that old cranky engine was capable of.

This definitively isn't the case though. Even if you generally hate RTwP out of principle, the combat in all the other IE games was appreciably less godawful than in PS:T.

it was covered a lot by great companions and their skills and weird items and somewhat unusual spells and magic system. Plus the enemies were interesting at least thematically, or by their concept and style.
and - after all, you went through decent amount of gameplay without fighting, all together. Or you could if you wanted too.

True. This is one of the main reasons PS:T is still a great game despite the bad combat. But hopefully T:ToN will have all of this good shit regardless of their choice of combat system.

- but i did have visions of it playing in turn based, .. just a few tweaks here and there.. some nice grid, tougher enemies... mm-mm.
(if you play as a fighter later youre really just moving down everything - people are missing on that when they go and play only the mage - really. its fun in its own PST way.)

I'll admit, I've only ever played through most of the game as a mage. Mainly because the important stats in PS:T lead naturally to that class, but also because being the DnD heavy artillery and then rest-spamming always seemed the quickest way to get through the drudgery of the game's combat. Next time I play I'll try being a fighter.

 

[hiver]

This definitively isn't the case though. Even if you generally hate RTwP out of principle, the combat in all the other IE games was appreciably less godawful than in PS:T.

i meant - non withstanding and regardless of that. From my PoV.


Yeah i know, seems everyone, especially new players, go for general shouting to play as a mage and then basically spend the game in one go, instead of first playing a fighter, then a mage and so getting two playthroughs.
Even so, if you want to see how is TNO as a fighter, taking all things as they are -

Spoiler

(actually an fing demigod closer to the end)

- it can feel really satisfying - though of course, you wont get that many things being or turning out different. But there is stuff you can do, or do differently when playing like that.

 

[doshu]

First, i think this issue should be clear to anyone with a brain and some basic knowledge about these types of cRPG games.
RtwP is a system that is best suited for combat heavy games, or games that have no other gameplay then combat.
If a game has little combat encounters - and they are hand crafted to boot, and there is other gameplay besides combat - then TB is a better choice. Mechanically. because it is a deeper system that reinforces character skills importance and effect rather then player skills - which is what this type of cRPG should be and play like. only that one line while you just simply skipped over the rest - and then just claim youre some sort of fucking righteous hero - will only get you the "stupid shit" reply from me.

TB is the better choice MECHANICALY because it offers the possibility for a deeper system, I agree. But does that equal to the better choice from a gameplay/game experience viewpoint? Not necessarily.

That is why I think TTON would be better (= "better for me") with RTwP, eventhough in most games I really do prefer TB (but like, really really. I freakin' love TB). I'll explain a bit, but first things first.

- that you stupidly just prefer RTwP is no concern of mine at all.

Secondly, following that with a stupid blatant strawman doesnt really inspire nice answers in return. Codex is not some blind TB bastion at all and all of us here played most of RPGs ever released, including abominations from bethpizda and biocrap, not to mention good games that used RTwP such as BG games, Icewind dale games and so on.

Know what? You could have expressed yourself without being rude. Would you have sounded all the more better for it. I certainly didn't attack you personaly.

Thirdly, claiming i didnt explain my statement while you havent done the same for any of yourse is laughable. The fact that you quoted only that one line while you just simply skipped over the rest - and then just claim youre some sort of fucking righteous hero - will only get you the "stupid shit" reply from me.

Never said I was any kind of hero. I'm just expressing my thoughts about this TB/RTwP subject. Nothing more. I quoted you only because some people were saying that the kind of "argument" I quoted was sensible.

But anyway, about my explanation. Well, really, it doesn't need to go into much details. As you said, I think that the game would be mechanically better off with TB. But that is not what I'm looking for with TTON. No, I would prefer something more fluid (yes, even with pause; BG was more fluid than Fallout, at least in my book), more visceral (having time flying by when releasing pause, that kind of pressure you don't get in TB). I would rather there is no "RT gameplay" followed by "TB gameplay" separation within the game. That is why I will probably vote for RTwP, unless inXile expressely say that they don't feel up to delivering a good implementation of it (experience/time/money wise). All in all, it's not about what I prefer as a combat system (which is TB), but what I see best fit for what I expect TTON to be as a game experience. A lot of subjectivity here, and based on a game not even started to be coded yet...

(That's it, I'm off for two days)

Romaji de.
Konbanwa doshusan.
RTwP wa ii, demo taihen desu.

Konbanwa! So da ne, taihen dakedo, yappari ichiban TTON ni aisouna system da to omou^^.

 

[Roguey]

Regarding engine chat http://www.markdomowicz.com/index.p...th-scott-warner&catid=39:games-misc&Itemid=57

GAWN: So Planescape was your first title?

SW: Yes.

GAWN: Can you tell me about the development on that project?

SW: Basically Interplay licensed the Forgotten Realms and Planescape campaign settings and originally intended to do, I think 3 or 4 Planescape titles. As the economics of the situation became apparent to them, they whittled it down to one, and decided to use an engine that was currently being developed by Bioware for the Planescape project.

GAWN: And this wasn't interplays first infinity engine project right?

SW: This was the first one, yeah.

GAWN: Oh it was?!

SW: [laughs] Baldur's Gate was being developed concurrently at the same time Planescape was. So as they would release updates to the Baldur's Gate engine, we'd incorporate them and, shortly thereafter we started making some large changes to their engine as they were developing it. But, I think Planescape originally went into production in late 97, early 98, as it is now, and then got put on hold for 10 months while Fallout 2 was wrapped up. There were around 3 programmers on the team working on modifications for the Planescape engine during that time, but the real development started happening in late 98. We busted through the content of the game in 11 months.

Not sure who designed the Curst/Carceri section, but it's only there that I found the trash mobs to be truly insufferable.

Our good pal Colin McComb was responsible for those areas.

 

[Athelas]

Basically Interplay licensed the Forgotten Realms and Planescape campaign settings and originally intended to do, I think 3 or 4 Planescape titles.

What could have been...maybe even a fully fledged Planescape RPG with all the Planes and factions.

We busted through the content of the game in 11 months.

Holy crap.