Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

Yeah, I said it is being improved with each game, but it's still shit because the idea of level scaling an open world based on exploration is shit to begin with. I suggest you lay off the alcohol enemas.

If they removed level scaling, their core audience would throw a fit. Look at what happened with the cazadores and deathclaws north of Goodsprings in New Vegas.

 

[suejak]

there's famously no absolutely unavoidable combat in Fallout.

I can't believe that in this day and age people still make such statements.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Irenaeus]

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Check Grunker's last post.

 

[suejak]

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Check Grunker's last post.

The troll one where Brother None and some noob argue for several pages about something obvious?

I think it'd be in your interests to make a point rather than refer to that thread. I don't really see what's valuable or interesting about it. It seems like some kind of recent in-joke? I dunno, I haven't been on this site since 2003.

 

[Irenaeus]

I think it'd be in your interests to make a point rather than refer to that thread.

The point is that there is unavoidable combat in Fallout, unless you master rat diplomacy.

 

[suejak]

The other point was that the OP's synapses fire blanks.

There is unavoidable turn-based combat mode in Fallout, yes. You will enter combat mode when something goes hostile with you. However, you can completely avoid actually participating in the combat. This is what actually matters, lost behind your pointless semantic "gotcha".

 

[Irenaeus]

However, you can completely avoid actually participating in the combat. This is what actually matters, lost behind your pointless semantic "gotcha".

Running away is participating, Mr. Ghandi. Gotcha.

 

[suejak]

Boring argument.

 

[Irenaeus]

Boring argument.

 

[hiver]

But it is correct. btw "boring argument" is pointless semantics that refutes nothing.

 

[Lord Andre]

Killing shit in combat is the only thing separating an rpg from twinkle-toe larper queer land. Now, since I'm not in the habit of bending over dropped soap, I'll serve my PST with shitty combat and cream, thank you very much.

 

[Irenaeus]

Killing shit in combat is the only thing separating an rpg from twinkle-toe larper queer land. Now, since I'm not in the habit of bending over dropped soap, I'll serve my PST with shitty combat and cream, thank you very much.

Killing the opposition is simply the more manly solution to problems. I don't want my torment to be sissy emo crap.

 

[BobtheTree]

I think people are overemphasizing how "bad" the combat was in Planescape: Torment. Yes, it was not the central focus of the game, but I think the game did some creative things to make combat encounters interesting. One of them was playing on expectations. I still remember the first time I came across a group of rats and though "ohh, easy XP" right before I got my ass handed to me with magical spells. Granted, the combat in the game wasn't always that creative or interesting, but I think the nature of the universe as well as the unusual enemy types could make for some solid combat encounters. To just say we should throw them out just because Planescape: Torment's implementation of combat wasn't as good as the other Infinity Engine games is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Sure, the combat wasn't why people played Planescape: Torment, but I never had a moment in the game where I was going: man, I wish I could just skip all this combat stuff and talked to more people. The pacing of combat and heavy dialogue make the game a bit more balanced and elegant. I didn't feel like I was just reading a virtual novel, nor did I feel that I was ever just playing a combat heavy RPG (well, except for the Mordron maze, which was completely optional). Yes, an emphasis on storytelling should probably be a massive part of inXile's Torment, but let's not go crazy and throw out all combat just because the original didn't have exemplary combat. I think with creativity and thought, the new game could have great combat and great storytelling. No reason to pit one against the other or say that we can only have one because Planescape: Torment only did an amazing job telling a story.

 

[hiver]

Damn right.

 

[Gozma]

I've said before that Torment is not generally worse than other IE garbage combat, but there are several stretches where it doesn't even meet that low level of quality - especially parts of Curst, which are just an embarrassment. The whole second half of the game bounces just above that low point combat-wise. That shit really would be better if it were just gone.

 

[Kirtai]

I was thinking that when GemRB is more complete that someone should try fixing up the combat in PS:T.

The rage filled arguments over it would be glorious

 

[roshan]

You seem to forget the fact that Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale already had IE-combat in a much, much better place than Torment. What's wrong with using the functionality in Torment just with less encounters (and thus less combat)?

Torment is IE-combat (which is why I can only roll my eyes a suejak's meaningless attempt to come off as someone who knows anything), it's just a horribly warped version of it. Most people here like IE-combat but detest Torment's - not because Torment wasn't supposed to have combat, but because the IE-combat in Torment is fucked by UI-problems, JRPG spell animations that take forever, and a bunch of other crap that muddle it.

(would I rather have a turn-based Numenera? Yes. But that's beside the point, which is that the original Torment had no reason to fuck up the basic functionalities of IE-combat the way it did.)

Icewind Dale came after Torment. BG1 had equally crappy combat as PST. How the hell is kiting trash mobs with missile weapons for 95% of the game "IE combat in a much, much better place than Torment"????

 

[Grunker]

BG1 had equally crappy combat as PST.

 

[almondblight]

I'll say that after the series of infodumps and fetch quests that the Clerk's Ward consisted of I was pretty happy to finally get some combat. The first part of the game really was the best.

 

[Silva]

A PS:T sequel should have something like a "violence system" rather trying to get a lot of gameplay out of combat. PS:T is an adventure game with mediocre IE combat interwoven, sometimes egregious amounts of combat that is badly designed even for IE games in the second half, but you really do need to be able to resolve things by killing/beating people and you should be driven by the normal RPG "I need to be ready to kill bigger things" lootgrubbing and exploration cycle. But sometimes kicking around or murdering a poor bastard will not and should not be game driven; I don't expect that fight to be "combat". It's actually a case where I'd prefer not to have the gameness of TB but rather a sim-heavy Rtw/P like 7.62mm or something, even though that wouldn't happen in a million years. A system that could handle all those things like dexterity checks in dialog to choke a guy to death in the violence engine would be cool.

Fallout had a kind of very shallow but somewhat effective "violence system" where at least half of the combat in the game isn't close to gameplay with TB I guess. Mostly with comedy gore animations and text descriptions.

This.

 

[aris]

Most people here like IE-combat but detest Torment's - not because Torment wasn't supposed to have combat, but because the IE-combat in Torment is fucked by UI-problems, JRPG spell animations that take forever, and a bunch of other crap that muddle it.

Those are definitely not the main issues. Horrible path finding (even for an IE games, most other IE-games have bether pathfinding), horrible AI, and bad encounter design consisting almost exclusively of trash mobs with little room of tactical play where running in and bashing skulls is simply almost always the best tactict.

 

[hiver]

Kevin Saunders on Tides
via Formspring

http://www.formspring.me/ksaun

Well, as you have seen by now, we’ve gone with Torment: Tides of Numenera. =) You may wonder what the significance of "Tides" is. (These are not a core Numenera concept, though they are compatible with the setting in multiple ways.) The Tides are key levers (but not the only ones) in the choices and consequences system we’re designing. They could be loosely compared to D&D's alignments or Ultima IV's principles and virtues. But unlike alignments, they are not in direct opposition to each other and unlike the virtues, you won’t necessarily want to achieve them all. Nor can you, really... you’ll have to decide what’s most important to you.

The Tides are more nuanced and complex, with the “best” choice for any situation being a personal decision for you (or how you want to play) rather than a decision that we as designers judge. Now, NPCs in the game will certainly judge you based upon their own beliefs and agendas, but we will strive for the game itself to be impartial. We want to provide satisfying reactivity and allow you to explore your own answers, for you to play as you wish and have the game’s story unfold accordingly. We’ll talk more about the Tides down the road and there are aspects of the system for which we’ll be seeking backer input.

 

[tuluse]

That sounds pretty good.

 

[Lord Andre]

Oh my fucking god. This Kevin Saunders dude is actually an intelligent human being. Fuck eternity, fuck wasteland, this shit will be glorious. GLORIOUS.

 

[Kirtai]

Mechanically, does this sound kinda like a faction system but applied to morality and/or principles rather than groups?