Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

This is looking really good so far. I'm eager to see backers get their hands on the beta when it's ready

 

[prodigydancer]

Also I dislike view distance, while original Planescape's models were larger then IE ones, in this TToN video characters look like it's not a Planescape successor, but Arcanum's - minimum details, very large distance from camera, smaller in scale than background details.

It'll probably have zoomable camera like PoE. Just set whatever zoom level you prefer.

after the disappointments from W2, PoE and D:OS

Someone here really likes old-school CRPGs...

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Also I dislike view distance, while original Planescape's models were larger then IE ones, in this TToN video characters look like it's not a Planescape successor, but Arcanum's - minimum details, very large distance from camera, smaller in scale than background details.

It'll probably have zoomable camera like PoE. Just set whatever zoom level you like.

Of course I don't know for sure, but this recent ksaun quote rather points on fixed camera (that, or that zoomed chars look way worse).

One of our reasons for keeping the camera distance pretty far from the characters is that it lets us make them more cost-effectively. But the intent is that they look great for the size they'll be on screen. So anyone who thinks they look bad -- I'd like to hear why.

after the disappointments from W2, PoE and D:OS

Someone here really likes old-school CRPGs...

> implying that disliking PoE and W2 is equal to disliking old school RPGs.

 

[prodigydancer]

> implying that disliking PoE and W2 is equal to disliking old school RPGs.

When you dislike one of the KS Big Three it's personal preference (e.g. I don't care much for D:OS), but when you dislike them all it's a tendency. Like Prime Junta said, "edgelord or burnout?" You don't look much like an edgelord so I guess the diagnosis is clear.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

> implying that disliking PoE and W2 is equal to disliking old school RPGs.

When you dislike one of the KS Big Three it's personal preference (e.g. I don't care much for D:OS), but when you dislike them all it's a tendency.

I'd rather say that liking all of the supposed "incline" regardless of their flaws (and boy, do they have them) points on rather... excitable nature.

rant

For example, for me RPGs consist (broadly) of two parts - writing and mechanics. D:OS was very good mechanically but had shit whiting. So, as a storyfag, I just can't help to be disappointed in it (because of unrealized potential, if you will). W2 had mediocre but serviceable writing, in general, but many of its mechanical elements I really disliked (loot distribution, lack of options in combat). So W2 too have become a disappointment, but for other reasons. And PoE - well, writing ranged from mediocre to good, but then Sawyer happened to mechanics. For a combat-heavy game encounters which we got, casting and combat options, rest spam and lack of combat EXP wasn't a good fit at all. So, another disappointment. I really liked SR: Dragonfall though, despite of it being not really deep mechanically-wise.

Mate, if you were able to enjoy them - good for you. But don't try to paint those who didn't some "traitors of incline", it's rather unbecoming.

 

[Jimmious]

> implying that disliking PoE and W2 is equal to disliking old school RPGs.

When you dislike one of the KS Big Three it's personal preference (e.g. I don't care much for D:OS), but when you dislike them all it's a tendency.

I'd rather say that liking all of the supposed "incline" regardless of their flaws (and boy, do they have them) points on rather... excitable nature.

rant

For example, for me RPGs consist (broadly) of two parts - writing and mechanics. D:OS was very good mechanically but had shit whiting. So, as a storyfag, I just can't help to be disappointed in it (because of unrealized potential, if you will). W2 had mediocre but serviceable writing, in general, but many of its mechanical elements I really disliked (loot distribution, lack of options in combat). So W2 too have become a disappointment, but for other reasons. And PoE - well, writing ranged from mediocre to good, but then Sawyer happened to mechanics. For a combat-heavy game encounters which we got, casting and combat options, rest spam and lack of combat EXP wasn't a good fit at all. So, another disappointment. I really liked SR: Dragonfall though, despite of it being not really deep mechanically-wise.

Mate, if you were able to enjoy them - good for you. But don't try to paint those who didn't some "traitors of incline", it's rather unbecoming.

One could argue though that SR: Dragonfall fails mechanically compared to D:OS for example.Anyways I just think you should lower your standards a bit because I doubt you'll enjoy a lot of games in general if you expect so much of them.
Hell I can't even think of one that was perfect in both writing and mechanics. Fallouts came close for me but the combat was kinda simplistic admittedly.
I'd like to know your opinion about PS:T since apparently it fails in one your two categories

 

[Stainless Veteran]

One could argue though that SR: Dragonfall fails mechanically compared to D:OS for example.

D:OS was very good mechanically but had shit whiting.

I really liked SR: Dragonfall though, despite of it being not really deep mechanically-wise.

Anyways I just think you should lower your standards a bit because I doubt you'll enjoy a lot of games in general if you expect so much of them.
Hell I can't even think of one that was perfect in both writing and mechanics. Fallouts came close for me but the combat was kinda simplistic admittedly.
I'd like to know your opinion about PS:T since apparently it fails in one your two categories

Nothing is perfect. Nevertheless, don't get me wrong — I'm not saying that it's all shit, I'm not Skyway. I played and somewhat enjoyed both PoE and W2 (couldn't get into D:OS). Problem is, that big trio doesn't measure up to IE games and both Fallouts.

As for PST - god-tier writing, mediocre mechanics (bad combat, good itemization, also I like ADnD's magic, but that's subjective).

 

[Jimmious]

For some reason this discussion made me imagine how a proper Fallout game would be with a combat engine a la D:OS.

*Proper as in not real time first person shit

 

[t]

Am I the only one who thinks the graphics are way worse then PoE's?

 

[Vilos Cohaagen]

Am I the only one who thinks the graphics are way worse then PoE's?

Worse than PoE, than PS:T, than Arcanum...

That video is an huge let down.

 

[Lord Andre]

I don't have an eye for graphic stuff, so I can't comment on animations and stuff, but from Kevin's and Colin's interviews, posts etc. they show integrity, honesty, modesty and for that alone I will throw money at any project with them at the helm. Zeits also seems cool. Big thumbs up from me for the whole Torment team.

 

[Knut]

i appreciate the small, extra animations in the environment, it really adds a lot to the feeling of the world being alive. I believe the character animations and visuals will be improved upon, what worries me more is that tton will be a weird-fest in a bad sense. i hope for some less funky town, nature environment and such to emphasize when we come across something extraordinary. you know, if everybody is special, nobody is.

aside from that, the ideas, philosophy, setting, updates- everything makes me really happy so far.

 

[Adam Heine]

That's a good point, Knut. The video definitely focuses on the weirder environments at our disposal, but rest assured there will be some "normal" environments as well. In the video, there is the final scene, and also the area outside the bubble of water, just as small examples.

 

[Sensuki]

Am I the only one who thinks the graphics are way worse then PoE's?

All pre-alpha though. Obsidian's character models didn't look that great when they first released the PE beta. Dimitri Berman spent from August until March polishing/re-modelling most of the character art to look quite a bit better. Will this happen on Torment? Probably, to some extent, although they've already sort of stated that they aren't going for as nice looking models as PoE(?)

There seems to be two camera zoom levels being used there, I think they are zoomed out from Pillars of Eternity's default angle in most of the shots to try and show off the environment.

Same with the area art I guess, it's pre-alpha so they can still polish their work. However it looks like there's multiple issues that need to be looked at regarding their renders (just like Pillars of Eternity). Also something that Obsidian dealt with during the backer beta. They played around with area ambient maps (which were bugged to begin with), the lookup table and did lots of re-renders for areas.

Obsidian also spent a *lot* of time working on character lighting / trying to ground the 3D characters into the scene ... and went a little bit overboard in the end in some cases as characters blended into the background a bit much in many areas. They regularly showed screenshots from their game. We have not seen a Torment screenshot with characters in it, just two videos, so people haven't really had the chance to talk about such issues until now really. But yeah I agree that characters could 'pop' quite a bit more from the scene.

 

[ArchAngel]

i appreciate the small, extra animations in the environment, it really adds a lot to the feeling of the world being alive. I believe the character animations and visuals will be improved upon, what worries me more is that tton will be a weird-fest in a bad sense. i hope for some less funky town, nature environment and such to emphasize when we come across something extraordinary. you know, if everybody is special, nobody is.

aside from that, the ideas, philosophy, setting, updates- everything makes me really happy so far.

Because PST was full of serene and normal natural environments...

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

i appreciate the small, extra animations in the environment, it really adds a lot to the feeling of the world being alive. I believe the character animations and visuals will be improved upon, what worries me more is that tton will be a weird-fest in a bad sense. i hope for some less funky town, nature environment and such to emphasize when we come across something extraordinary. you know, if everybody is special, nobody is.

aside from that, the ideas, philosophy, setting, updates- everything makes me really happy so far.

I'm at the other end of the spectrum, I can't get enough weird stuff, and it can't get weird enough.

TBH, I think InXile need to lift their game.

Spoiler

Spoiler

For the record, I'm liking the environments a lot so far.

 

[Haba]

I watched the video and all I saw was turn based combat. And I saw that it was good.

 

[Whiran]

I'm at the other end of the spectrum, I can't get enough weird stuff, and it can't get weird enough.

It is the Ninth world. Weird is pretty much normal.

I'm hoping there are very few "normal" locations as defined by today's interpretation.

The Ninth World is a crazy place and it is only limited by the imagination of those conceiving it. Hopefully the folk over at inXile on this project have lots and lots of imagination that is running rampant. This is the environment for that.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

I watched the video and all I saw was turn based combat. And I saw that it was good.

Hopefully the folk over at inXile on this project have lots and lots of imagination that is running rampant.

 

[ksaun]

Also I dislike view distance, while original Planescape's models were larger then IE ones, in this TToN video characters look like it's not a Planescape successor, but Arcanum's - minimum details, very large distance from camera, smaller in scale than background details.

It'll probably have zoomable camera like PoE. Just set whatever zoom level you like.

Of course I don't know for sure, but this recent ksaun quote rather points on fixed camera (that, or that zoomed chars look way worse).

One of our reasons for keeping the camera distance pretty far from the characters is that it lets us make them more cost-effectively. But the intent is that they look great for the size they'll be on screen. So anyone who thinks they look bad -- I'd like to hear why.

Imprecise wording on my part -- sorry about that. When/if I've referred to a "fixed" camera, I've meant the angle, not the distance.

We are using exactly the same minimum and maximum zoom levels as PoE. (Note that in the First Glimpse video, for editorial reasons, we let the characters get to about 20% larger on screen than in-game. For this second video, I believe we held to the planned maximum zoom, but might have let the camera get further out.)

(We discussed allowing the game camera to get in closer to the characters, much as PST did when compared to the other IE games. (Though with GhostDog's great higher resolution mod for PST, the characters are more similar in onscreen size between PST and TTON .)

However, allowing for larger characters onscreen increases the art cost pretty much across the board -- character, environments, visual effects, even animations to some extent all demand higher fidelity the closer you get (if you want to maintain a certain quality bar, which we do). We deemed the cost/risk too high and decided to stick with the guidelines the Obsidian team established with PoE at the time.)

All pre-alpha though. Obsidian's character models didn't look that great when they first released the PE beta. Dimitri Berman spent from August until March polishing/re-modelling most of the character art to look quite a bit better. Will this happen on Torment? Probably, to some extent, although they've already sort of stated that they aren't going for as nice looking models as PoE(?)

We hope to meet or exceed the standard set by PoE for character models. (Note that we are not planning to show the characters closer than they are in-world -- we are not planning for a large character model on the character sheet, for example. The paper doll will be more abstracted. (In general this feature is less important for TTON because we will have less customizability in character appearance. The companions will have limited wardrobe changes to help keep their distinctiveness.))

There seems to be two camera zoom levels being used there, I think they are zoomed out from Pillars of Eternity's default angle in most of the shots to try and show off the environment.

Same with the area art I guess, it's pre-alpha so they can still polish their work. However it looks like there's multiple issues that need to be looked at regarding their renders (just like Pillars of Eternity). Also something that Obsidian dealt with during the backer beta. They played around with area ambient maps (which were bugged to begin with), the lookup table and did lots of re-renders for areas.

Obsidian also spent a *lot* of time working on character lighting / trying to ground the 3D characters into the scene ... and went a little bit overboard in the end in some cases as characters blended into the background a bit much in many areas. They regularly showed screenshots from their game. We have not seen a Torment screenshot with characters in it, just two videos, so people haven't really had the chance to talk about such issues until now really. But yeah I agree that characters could 'pop' quite a bit more from the scene.

We also agree that the characters don't "pop" yet (and many or all of the other specific critiques we've seen regarding the video). Yes, there's much polishing still to do. Most of the content we've shown is what we internally call "Middle Epoch," which roughly means "we could ship it if we really had to, but players would be sad." (I.e., we don't intend to ship anything at Middle.)

 

[Hobo Elf]

Are you able to confirm / deny how faithful the adaptation of the Numenera rules will be in Torment? Basically, will I be able to Ride the Lightning, Wear a Sheen of Ice or Exist Partially out of Phase?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Also can you romance the ball of goo?

 

[Infinitron]

Also can you grapple the ball of goo?

Fixed.

ksaun, Adam Heine, since y'all seem to be around a lot this weekend, how about that Systems Alpha? We know the game's probably not coming out this year, but if that and the beta aren't coming soon, it seems like it won't even be early next year.

 

[Sensuki]

All pre-alpha though. Obsidian's character models didn't look that great when they first released the PE beta. Dimitri Berman spent from August until March polishing/re-modelling most of the character art to look quite a bit better. Will this happen on Torment? Probably, to some extent, although they've already sort of stated that they aren't going for as nice looking models as PoE(?)

We hope to meet or exceed the standard set by PoE for character models. (Note that we are not planning to show the characters closer than they are in-world -- we are not planning for a large character model on the character sheet, for example. The paper doll will be more abstracted. (In general this feature is less important for TTON because we will have less customizability in character appearance. The companions will have limited wardrobe changes to help keep their distinctiveness.))

Nice to hear and good choice, because that was IMO an unnecessary/costly decision by them. I personally prefer 2D paperdolls anyway. For TToN you only really need a picture or something since the character models aren't customizable or whatever.

We also agree that the characters don't "pop" yet (and many or all of the other specific critiques we've seen regarding the video). Yes, there's much polishing still to do. Most of the content we've shown is what we internally call "Middle Epoch," which roughly means "we could ship it if we really had to, but players would be sad." (I.e., we don't intend to ship anything at Middle.)

Yeah that's what I thought it looked like as well =P Eagerly awaiting the alpha, but no rush.

 

[Gozma]

Too much VO