Total War: Shogun 2

[bonescraper]

Isn't the AI cheating massively on Legendary? Spawning armies in fog of war out of thin air, getting loads more money than the player...?

Just to clear this thing out:

To be clear, the Campaign AI does not spawn additional forces except under the following four circumstances:

- The Ashikaga faction. To represent the idea that the Shogun could place a levy upon his subjects and to improve game play the Ashikaga gets some free units.
- Rebellions, these troops are the result of a spontaneous (or incited) uprising.
- Wako pirates, they are pirates and not subject to normal rules!
- European Traders, the Black Ship.

Any other forces you encounter are the result of the AI's recruitment through normal channels.
On harder difficulty levels the AI gets some (minor) recruitment bonuses that may allow it to field armies more quickly than the player.
On easier difficulty levels the AI is penalised and you should be able to out produce it.

Besides normal troop recruitment the AI can also acquire forces through the normal defection and bribery mechanics.

Also note that the AI has a tendency to hide forces and that Ninjas and other agents are not 100% effective in revealing ambushing armies. Don't assume that because an agent can see some location that an army isn't there waiting to ambush.

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.p ... now-sticky

EDIT:

Oh, and by the way guys. Enjoy the last good Total War game. CA are going full consolemole.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/200 ... consoles/1

http://www.vg247.com/2010/12/07/creativ ... -consoles/

Also, from their website:

We are currently hiring for the following vacancies:

Console Team:

Lighting Artist
Senior Designer
Lead Engine Programmer
Senior/Graphics Programmer
3D FX Artist
3D Environment Artist
3D Character Artist
Senior 3D Character Artist

Senior Designer

2 shipped (PS2/Xbox/360/PS3) console titles in a Design position.
At least one of the above must be 3rd person
Must have experience designing online multiplayer.

Shogun didn't sell that well so it's time to make shitty games for the uneducated masses. So remember guys, don't pay for your games and keep whining about how the mainstream market is killing the good ones.

 

[Quilty]

Thanks for the info on the AI bonuses, bonescraper.

And fuck you for digging up that console shit, mang. Though I don't think you can put all the blame on the users for not buying Shogun 2. I think a lot of them expected the game to suck based on their experience with Empire. It was CA's poor performance that led to the lack of sales. I was initially hesitant about Shogun, but I went ahead and bought it the other day after pirating it. Can't see anything wrong about trying before buying, especially in the case of CA.

Fairly certain that's not just on legendary.

I started a game on normal yesterday as the green clan that starts at the western edge of japan. The very first turn, I get attacked by a stack slightly larger than my army. Except all of his units ar erank 2 or 3. I manage to fight him off barely, suffering severe losses. 2 turns later, an identical stack assaulted my castle and my northern neighbour declared war.

Assraep is not tasteful

Maybe that's a scripted thing? As far as I know, all clans begin with a certain threat in their province that they have to deal with, so maybe the stack with experienced units that attacked you was part of your clan's background story (i.e. a rebel stack or a rebellious brother etc.)?

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Your Total War to consoles thing is from 2008 and 2010. They might just be making another terrible game like Spartan Total Warrior.

 

[bonescraper]

Though I don't think you can put all the blame on the users for not buying Shogun 2. I think a lot of them expected the game to suck based on their experience with Empire. It was CA's poor performance that led to the lack of sales. I was initially hesitant about Shogun, but I went ahead and bought it the other day after pirating it. Can't see anything wrong about trying before buying, especially in the case of CA.

Yeah, i understand it's hard to blindly trust CA, especially after E:TW, but i'm talking about all these people who pirate games, have a lot of fun playing them, but will never even consider paying for them.

Your Total War to consoles thing is from 2008 and 2010. They might just be making another terrible game like Spartan Total Warrior.

Yeah, but Sega owns them. And i honestly can't remember a single game recently released by Sega that wasn't a huge disappointment in the sales department. Shogun 2 is just another drop in their bucket of fail. They need a AAA title badly, and that can be achieved by going full consoletard i'm afraid. I just hope i'm wrong.

 

[Forest Dweller]

There's no way to have a Total War game on consoles, it would never work.

 

[bonescraper]

There's no way to have a Total War game on consoles, it would never work.

So they said about Civilization. And look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_Revolution

Everything is possible. EVERYTHING.

 

[Ulminati]

Civrev was pretty dumbed down and rather crap. I should know. I got it.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

To be clear, the Campaign AI does not spawn additional forces except under the following four circumstances:

- The Ashikaga faction. To represent the idea that the Shogun could place a levy upon his subjects and to improve game play the Ashikaga gets some free units.
- Rebellions, these troops are the result of a spontaneous (or incited) uprising.
- Wako pirates, they are pirates and not subject to normal rules!
- European Traders, the Black Ship.

Any other forces you encounter are the result of the AI's recruitment through normal channels.
On harder difficulty levels the AI gets some (minor) recruitment bonuses that may allow it to field armies more quickly than the player.
On easier difficulty levels the AI is penalised and you should be able to out produce it.

Besides normal troop recruitment the AI can also acquire forces through the normal defection and bribery mechanics.

Also note that the AI has a tendency to hide forces and that Ninjas and other agents are not 100% effective in revealing ambushing armies. Don't assume that because an agent can see some location that an army isn't there waiting to ambush.

Minor is an understatement of the year. IIRC, modders found that the AI got something like -30% unit costs/upkeep costs and +30% resources over base (player has +30%/-30% over base). So effectively the AI can produce and maintain over 3x as much units, as well as getting huge research rate buffs, being able to produce units they don't have and with experience they shouldn't get, along with a lot of other shit like huge campaign map movement bonuses and more recruitment slots. They don't actually magically spawn armies, they just have 5 provinces that can produce 4 or 5 units each non-stop (perfect AI macro), and the movement bonuses means they can instantly collect them together into a single stack that seems to appear out of nowhere.

 

[easychord]

Are any codexianites playing the multiplayer modes?

I don't normally play online at all but enjoyed the battles in this game in singleplayer enough to realise that I should actually play against people instead of sort of competent AI and am enjoying it. The matchmaking is a swine and doesn't deliver. Higher level competionfags alt+f4 whenever there is the slightest hint that you might win against them. But it is still a lot of fun to play the online avatar battle mode and play the battles against other people with actual proper armies instead of the crap army compositions and mechanical tactics of the AI.

Drop in battles and naval are a waste of time in MP tho'. If you fight a drop in against someone in a campaign you are either going to get the same scripted first encounter that people do before they turn drop ins off or some unwinnable crap. Naval battles are all strictly "cannon bune" only since oddly enough ships with cannons are better than ships that only have some swordsmen or other useless berks on them. It's all historically accurate.

I'm really selling the MP hard since I love it.

 

[Raghar]

Where is patch? Crash to desktop at the new turn.

 

[Ulminati]

Where is patch? Crash to desktop at the new turn.

"Crash to the Desktop; Rage meant for enemy; Focused now on bugs"

- Japanese Death Poem

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Around turn 45 with my Chosokabe and I'm sitting at 10 provinces, have Ashikaga pissed off at me, and am right near Kyoto. MUST FIGHT HARDER.

 

[Trash]

Isn't the AI cheating massively on Legendary? Spawning armies in fog of war out of thin air, getting loads more money than the player...?

Just to clear this thing out:

To be clear, the Campaign AI does not spawn additional forces except under the following four circumstances:

- The Ashikaga faction. To represent the idea that the Shogun could place a levy upon his subjects and to improve game play the Ashikaga gets some free units.
- Rebellions, these troops are the result of a spontaneous (or incited) uprising.
- Wako pirates, they are pirates and not subject to normal rules!
- European Traders, the Black Ship.

Any other forces you encounter are the result of the AI's recruitment through normal channels.
On harder difficulty levels the AI gets some (minor) recruitment bonuses that may allow it to field armies more quickly than the player.
On easier difficulty levels the AI is penalised and you should be able to out produce it.

Besides normal troop recruitment the AI can also acquire forces through the normal defection and bribery mechanics.

Also note that the AI has a tendency to hide forces and that Ninjas and other agents are not 100% effective in revealing ambushing armies. Don't assume that because an agent can see some location that an army isn't there waiting to ambush.

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.p ... now-sticky

EDIT:

Oh, and by the way guys. Enjoy the last good Total War game. CA are going full consolemole.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/200 ... consoles/1

http://www.vg247.com/2010/12/07/creativ ... -consoles/

Also, from their website:

We are currently hiring for the following vacancies:

Console Team:

Lighting Artist
Senior Designer
Lead Engine Programmer
Senior/Graphics Programmer
3D FX Artist
3D Environment Artist
3D Character Artist
Senior 3D Character Artist

Senior Designer

2 shipped (PS2/Xbox/360/PS3) console titles in a Design position.
At least one of the above must be 3rd person
Must have experience designing online multiplayer.

Shogun didn't sell that well so it's time to make shitty games for the uneducated masses. So remember guys, don't pay for your games and keep whining about how the mainstream market is killing the good ones.

Doesn't mean it's another Total War. They made console games before and all were either abysmal failures or just sold poorly. Wonder why they keep at it. Still, if it will be another TW?

: x

Shogun 2 didn't sell well though? Not that surprising. CA's rep went down the drain with Empire, Napoleon and their shit support and blatant lies. Hard to get back from something like that.

PS Thanks for the AI recruitment info. Never had the idea that the AI actually spawns stacks next to you in the FOW. I found it more than possible to whittle down their forces before going for the jugular. They love ambushing though and will try to hide badly mauled stacks off the beaten path in ambush. Don't give a shit about bonuses on Hard and Legendary. There is a reason these are called that and untill a really good AI gets produces I'll take any challenge from one.

 

[Tycn]

Would have liked to see a new Rome in this style but hell. We've got EB2 anyway.

 

[kris]

CA developer is blatantly lying. Thing is, the armies don't always spawn in the fog of war. If you have a trade deal you might see their capital... and then like me can see their spawning army that came out from nowhere.

Bascially the AI get "bonus" units around their capital, maybe around 10 of them. I seen it twice! They just apeared out from nothing, spread out and then gathered into one army.

Also the thing mentioned about the AI having experienced armies is the same thing, must come from the spawned armies. In legendary I met an AI army with all units on 2 or 3 experience, in the 12th turn. With constant warring I might have one single unit with a 2 experience by that time. No, this guy is lying through his teeth.

Isn't the AI cheating massively on Legendary? Spawning armies in fog of war out of thin air, getting loads more money than the player...?

Just to clear this thing out:

To be clear, the Campaign AI does not spawn additional forces except under the following four circumstances:

- The Ashikaga faction. To represent the idea that the Shogun could place a levy upon his subjects and to improve game play the Ashikaga gets some free units.
- Rebellions, these troops are the result of a spontaneous (or incited) uprising.
- Wako pirates, they are pirates and not subject to normal rules!
- European Traders, the Black Ship.

Any other forces you encounter are the result of the AI's recruitment through normal channels.
On harder difficulty levels the AI gets some (minor) recruitment bonuses that may allow it to field armies more quickly than the player.
On easier difficulty levels the AI is penalised and you should be able to out produce it.

Besides normal troop recruitment the AI can also acquire forces through the normal defection and bribery mechanics.

 

[JarlFrank]

I've bought every TW game, including Empire and Napoleon when their price went down, cause I love the premise of the series and the games are always worth it for the mods. Going to buy Shogun 2 maybe next month or so.

And based on the relatively large fanbase TW has got, I doubt they'll stop producing TW games altogether. S2 probably didn't sell as well because of setting - you know, all these stupid teenagers who claim to know shit about history in the TWC forums, while actually all they want is to play as their own nation. The kind of people who go into arguments with mod creators that "MY NATION EXISTED IN 1100 DESPITE WHAT YOUR SOURCES SAY GO INCLUDE IT", and the kind of people who aren't interested at all in a game set in Japan because lol it's some foreign place that I don't give a shit about haha.

I bet Rome 2 would sell much better.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

it's currently one of steams heavy hitters in concurrent players and on the top sellers list.

 

[Konjad]

I've bought every TW game, including Empire and Napoleon when their price went down, cause I love the premise of the series and the games are always worth it for the mods. Going to buy Shogun 2 maybe next month or so.

And based on the relatively large fanbase TW has got, I doubt they'll stop producing TW games altogether. S2 probably didn't sell as well because of setting - you know, all these stupid teenagers who claim to know shit about history in the TWC forums, while actually all they want is to play as their own nation. The kind of people who go into arguments with mod creators that "MY NATION EXISTED IN 1100 DESPITE WHAT YOUR SOURCES SAY GO INCLUDE IT", and the kind of people who aren't interested at all in a game set in Japan because lol it's some foreign place that I don't give a shit about haha.

I bet Rome 2 would sell much better.

But there are a lot of weaboos and otakus as well. And I don't think this really has any great influence anyway what countries are there and what not.

 

[Ulminati]

CA developer is blatantly lying. Thing is, the armies don't always spawn in the fog of war. If you have a trade deal you might see their capital... and then like me can see their spawning army that came out from nowhere.

Bascially the AI get "bonus" units around their capital, maybe around 10 of them. I seen it twice! They just apeared out from nothing, spread out and then gathered into one army.

Also the thing mentioned about the AI having experienced armies is the same thing, must come from the spawned armies. In legendary I met an AI army with all units on 2 or 3 experience, in the 12th turn. With constant warring I might have one single unit with a 2 experience by that time. No, this guy is lying through his teeth.

Isn't the AI cheating massively on Legendary? Spawning armies in fog of war out of thin air, getting loads more money than the player...?

Just to clear this thing out:

To be clear, the Campaign AI does not spawn additional forces except under the following four circumstances:

- The Ashikaga faction. To represent the idea that the Shogun could place a levy upon his subjects and to improve game play the Ashikaga gets some free units.
- Rebellions, these troops are the result of a spontaneous (or incited) uprising.
- Wako pirates, they are pirates and not subject to normal rules!
- European Traders, the Black Ship.

Any other forces you encounter are the result of the AI's recruitment through normal channels.
On harder difficulty levels the AI gets some (minor) recruitment bonuses that may allow it to field armies more quickly than the player.
On easier difficulty levels the AI is penalised and you should be able to out produce it.

Besides normal troop recruitment the AI can also acquire forces through the normal defection and bribery mechanics.

On Turn 18 with Chokosabe at the moment. I just killed off Awas big stack. They have 1 province left. My army is sort-of banged up, so I decide to rest them for a year before doing the final push so I won't lose any units. My ninja confirms Awa has his daymio and 2 archer units holed up in his last province and nothing else.

3 turns later, in the middle of the winter, the Daymio marches up to my army with a stack containing 4 rank 2 bow ashigaru, 3 yari ashigaru, 2 light cavalry and 2 no-dachi samurai. I'd like to know how the fuck a single province with a rank 2 castle and meagre soil drums up the production to field such an army. Especially since I already drained his coffers gathering his first 2 DoomStacks™

 

[kris]

In other news, I might be able to win with Hojo on legendary. Got a good start, have Satomi as ally to protect my back and can withstand Hattori at Owari. More careful, with economy and all.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

On Turn 18 with Chokosabe at the moment. I just killed off Awas big stack. They have 1 province left. My army is sort-of banged up, so I decide to rest them for a year before doing the final push so I won't lose any units. My ninja confirms Awa has his daymio and 2 archer units holed up in his last province and nothing else.

3 turns later, in the middle of the winter, the Daymio marches up to my army with a stack containing 4 rank 2 bow ashigaru, 3 yari ashigaru, 2 light cavalry and 2 no-dachi samurai. I'd like to know how the fuck a single province with a rank 2 castle and meagre soil drums up the production to field such an army. Especially since I already drained his coffers gathering his first 2 DoomStacks™

Rank 2 castle = 2 production slots. AI gets +1 production (I think this is true on all difficulties), so thats 3 units per turn. Since the AI economic bonuses are so ridiculous you can basically assume that they are producing the maximum number of units per turn up until the point where the AI income = the army upkeep (which is an army 3x larger than one you can field). So 3 turns later, he has 9 more units. AI is allowed to produce units even if the province doesn't meet the requirements, because fuck the human player. AI gets some ridiculous research bonuses as well, so he probably has the tech that gives +exp to all units built. He may get some extra XP bonus just because the AI is allowed to cheat even more, not sure.

Even on earlier difficulties when you aren't facing ridiculously stacked odds, you have to keep in mind that the AI generally pools all its units together. If you wipe a stack, all that money they spent on upkeep for the army is free for rebuilding, so even on a level playing field an opponent would be able to reproduce the army in 3 or 4 turns if they had the economy. The AI, obviously, does.

Your best bet is to rush with what little you have. The AI WILL have nothing the turn that their main force died, and in a 500 vs 100 battle you can autoresolve for 0 losses even if taking the castle means you would have to scale walls under archer fire . Then rest your army in the captured territory while you wait for the dissent to go down.

 

[Ulminati]

So initial assumptions that AI wasn't crap was because we underestimated how much it cheats?

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Its still better because its aggressive, but it hides how stupid it can be with its aggression because throwing away a stack every 2 turns won't hurt it. On normal where its almost even (AI gets some minor disadvantages but I think they keep a few advantages), the AI is still decently challenging. Hard is probably the best difficulty in terms of "balance", because the AI doesn't seem to be cheating TOO badly there that its obviously noticeable every turn. Someone acquainted with modding could probably make the AI more conscientious of its defense pretty easily if they had the tools available, in which case you would have to tone down the VH bonuses a lot otherwise the game would be near impossible.

The other major thing that the AI still doesn't get is Agents, though. Thats a main stumbling block that I'm not certain any amount of modding could really fix, and considering how powerful they are a player using them always has a significant advantage over the AI in a fair fight.

 

[Quilty]

I have to admit I'm pretty impressed with how the AI uses agents. Of course, it doesn't exploit them nowhere near as much as a human player would, but I've had a number of enemy metsukes, ninjas and geishas wreaking havoc all across my provinces, apprehending, assassinating and even disabling key buildings (my gold mine, for example, which was the backbone of my economy).

 

[ironyuri]

While the AI does cheat units, you can disable the AI in a few ways:

One that works surprisingly well is to use monks to sew revolt in provinces behind their lines. As they lose provinces they lose the ability to recruit (their max economic cap) and their forces get thinned out killing rebels and retaking cities.

As Mori, I held the Ito (who had 6 of the provinces in Kyushu) at bay by making 4/6 of their provinces revolt every few turns. It took them almost 10 in-game years (40 turns) to recapture 2 of the provinces, while I had captured the others. During this time I also used ninjas to remove any generals they got and to kill their daimyos family members.

Another effective way is to take cities and leave them for the AI to capture then move on. Avoid the big fights and wear them down, eventually they ask for peace even if they have a full stack to spare.

 

[kris]

Rank 2 castle = 2 production slots. AI gets +1 production (I think this is true on all difficulties), so thats 3 units per turn. Since the AI economic bonuses are so ridiculous you can basically assume that they are producing the maximum number of units per turn up until the point where the AI income = the army upkeep (which is an army 3x larger than one you can field). So 3 turns later, he has 9 more units. AI is allowed to produce units even if the province doesn't meet the requirements, because fuck the human player. AI gets some ridiculous research bonuses as well, so he probably has the tech that gives +exp to all units built. He may get some extra XP bonus just because the AI is allowed to cheat even more, not sure.

While this is all true... I seen even more evidence of the AI cheating now. Clear evidence. But I think it is mainly one province minors getting the big boosts.

1. One province minor that I had a trade deal and could see their territory. They have one half stack of units.
2. Next turn declare war on me.
3. Third turn attack me with one FULL stack and one half stack. So unless their city could produce 20 units in 1-2 turns. No, it is clear they got free units.

I also had Takeda attack me with an army with only experienced samurais. But that was within the realm of possibility even if I suspect that was a "free army".

Despite this I am still in line to be able to beat legendary as Hojo.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

The AI does actually hide units in the forest terrain pretty well. When the developer mentioned that in defense of seemingly "spawning" units it wasn't just a stupid cop out. In fact I think they have stacks in their forests more often then they have them defending their cities.

That said, I'm not sure either way whether spawns actually exist. The reduce spawn mod seems to have some kind of decrease in unit spam, but its really hard to tell because an enemy's forces change considerably based on how many other wars they have going on at the same time.